installing a GFCI Unit

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSInet http:///t/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit#post_3408737
Yeah basically GFI receptacles can accept two sets of wires on two terminals. The LINE terminals is where the incoming power is placed, and the LOAD terminals are where the outgoing (downstream) receptacles are wired. However, if you do not want the outlets downstream from the GFI to receive GFI protection, simply wire both sets of wires to the LINE terminals. Most GFI receptacles can accept two wires on each terminal, making this pretty easy.
The instructions included with most GFIs oultline this procedure in detail.
To comment on some of the pictures in this thread... it is important for everyone here to understand that a GFI is a "life safety" device, not a "property safety" device. In other words, pictures of burned tanks, power strips, etc... although a GFI may have tripped in those situations, that is purely cooincidental. GFIs are designed to mitigate the risk of ground-fault based electric shocks. Ground faults, that's it. GFIs must always be included as an integral part of any electrical safety plan for a tank, but they are not a "do-all" device that somehow protects from everything.
What I'm saying is that we need to be careful not to get the purposes of various safety devices mixed up because it can lead to a false sense of security. GFIs are no excluse to not use drip loops and basic procedures to avoid receptacles getting wet, for instance.
GFCI's for personal protection, AFCI's for fire protection. Do you have any experience with installing an AFCI breaker with GFCI recepticles on the same circuit? Would the two interfere with eachother do you know? I wouldn't think they would. But have been thinking about going that route.
Hooking up the wires as you suggested sounds pretty much the same as connecting your hots together, and neutrals together in the box and running jumpers to supply power to the device.
@ Cranberry & Snakeblitz...a non contact voltage detector is a handy thing to have around the house. They are very cheap and simple to use. It will allow you to detect any live wires still in a box for situations like what Cranberry described. Circuit testers are also a cheap but nice thing to have around as well. They make some that also have a little button on them that simulate a ground fault for testing GFCI's. Both can be found for right around $10 at any of the home improvement stores.

 

[acrylic51]

AFCI's is what was eluding me.... I knew SCSInet had talked about it ages ago!!!

 

[snakeblitz33]

lol, I remember something a long time ago where SCSInet was talking about eddy currents... Wish I could find it. SCSInet must be an electrician by trade, yeah?

 

[saxman]

One thing I'd like to add is GFCI's aren't an "add and forget" thing...like any mechanical device (yes, they're a mechanical switch), they can go bad on you, and when they fail, they fail in the "open" position, which means that if this happens, your setup could be without power until you notice it. It's best to make sure they're working (not "open") daily and test them regularly as part of your tank chore routine.
I say this because I've lost fish in a fish room because a GFCI failed on me. I've also had to replace other non-fish GFCI's for the same reason (they open up and can't be reset).

 

[snakeblitz33]

Good to know.

 

[scsinet]

Quote:
Originally Posted by acrylic51 http:///t/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit/20#post_3408759
AFCI's is what was eluding me.... I knew SCSInet had talked about it ages ago!!!
An AFCI (Arc-Fault-Circuit-Interrupter) is a device that senses the harmonics generated by arcing, and cutting the power. They also look for high current spikes caused by a dead short from line to neutral or line to ground (technical term: Bolted Fault), and cut the power, theoretically quicker than a breaker. Their mode of operation is basically identical to GFIs, they just use different triggering mechanisms. Where GFIs trip due to an imbalance of current from hot to neutral, AFIs trip due to it's electronics believing there is arcing going on somewhere in the circuit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit/20#post_3408777
lol, I remember something a long time ago where SCSInet was talking about eddy currents... Wish I could find it. SCSInet must be an electrician by trade, yeah?
Not exactly, but my job requires me to know what I'm doing with electricity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit/20#post_3408754
GFCI's for personal protection, AFCI's for fire protection. Do you have any experience with installing an AFCI breaker with GFCI recepticles on the same circuit? Would the two interfere with eachother do you know? I wouldn't think they would. But have been thinking about going that route.
Hooking up the wires as you suggested sounds pretty much the same as connecting your hots together, and neutrals together in the box and running jumpers to supply power to the device.
The NEC originally mandated that AFCIs be placed in all bedroom circuits in the 1999 code. Apparently NFPA felt that there was an enhanced risk of electrical fires caused by arcing in the bedroom. In the 2008 code revision, they have expanded that requirement to every residential circuit, whether it be for outlets or lights, for every area in the home except kitchens, basements, garages, bathrooms, etc. Now, the astute will notice that the areas I mentioned that are exempt for AFCIs are all areas where GFCIs are required.
One might conclude that this constitutes a de facto contraindication by the NEC, but the NEC does not specifically say that you can't have both on the same line. From a design and engineering perspective, I can't see how one device's operation can interfere with the other. At the same time though, why would they exclude GFI circuits from the AFI requirement?
I've heard significant rumblings in the "electrician community" that the NEC went way overboard and that the requirement to install these things on every branch circuit is extreme... especially when you consider that a normal single pole circuit breaker is about $4 and a AFI breaker is usually around $50 - multiply that by the couple dozen branch circuits in the home.
The NEC obviously acts in a general sense and does not specifically address saltwater tanks. I would hope that running a GFI, AFI, and with the normal OCPD that comes with the AFI you've got something of a "safety device hat-trick" that will address pretty much any issue. Of course, the single greatest thing you can do is to keep water off of the live connections.

 

[2quills]

I hadn't realized that afci had became code now. It does seem a little bit extreme, safe, but extreme. If they were so concerned about arc faulting you would think that it should be code to have on every circuit of the house. I guess, what does it matter to them though as long as every circuit has some type of protection. I wonder how many of those boys at the nfsa own shares in some of these companies that manufacture these devices.
Apparently gfci's are just fine to install on afci protected circuits. In fact, they actually make combination afci/gfci breakers now as well.

 

[scsinet]

Safe... sure. The argument of "no cost is too much for safety" could be made here as well, but the at issue is whether or not, is whether the statistical probability of a fire that could have been prevented with an AFI justifies the cost of so many of them in so many homes.
Regardless, my issue with AFIs is not the cost, but rather the nuisance tripping. Because they detect arcing, they can be triggered by any switch contacts opening or closing in the right conditions. UPSs are sworn enemies of AFIs, for example.
I would imagine that fish tank timers, electronic ballasts, etc could all potentially wreak havok. Hopefully at some point somebody will hook a tank up to a circuit serviced by one of these things and report the results.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSInet http:///t/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit/20#post_3409115
Safe... sure. The argument of "no cost is too much for safety" could be made here as well, but the at issue is whether or not, is whether the statistical probability of a fire that could have been prevented with an AFI justifies the cost of so many of them in so many homes.
Regardless, my issue with AFIs is not the cost, but rather the nuisance tripping. Because they detect arcing, they can be triggered by any switch contacts opening or closing in the right conditions. UPSs are sworn enemies of AFIs, for example.
I would imagine that fish tank timers, electronic ballasts, etc could all potentially wreak havok. Hopefully at some point somebody will hook a tank up to a circuit serviced by one of these things and report the results.
Hi, I don't know a thing about electricity.
I just want to be safe, I never heard of AFI, how do I know if I have them, what do they look like? I know GFCI look very different from regular outlets.

 

[scsinet]

They are not outlets, they are breakers.
What year was your home built?

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSInet http:///t/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit/20#post_3409115
Safe... sure. The argument of "no cost is too much for safety" could be made here as well, but the at issue is whether or not, is whether the statistical probability of a fire that could have been prevented with an AFI justifies the cost of so many of them in so many homes.
Regardless, my issue with AFIs is not the cost, but rather the nuisance tripping. Because they detect arcing, they can be triggered by any switch contacts opening or closing in the right conditions. UPSs are sworn enemies of AFIs, for example.
I would imagine that fish tank timers, electronic ballasts, etc could all potentially wreak havok. Hopefully at some point somebody will hook a tank up to a circuit serviced by one of these things and report the results.
Yeah I could see how power supplies could be an issue. Supposedly the new ones that are required now as of 2008 are supposed to be built to certain standards reguarding nuessance tripping. But it would almost lead me to believe that the better they are in regaurds to false trips then the less safe they would be???
One of the most frequent questions about AFCIs is related to resistance to unwanted tripping.
There are four varieties of tests the UL standard specifies for unwanted tripping:
• Inrush Current: High current draw devices such as tungsten filament lamps and capacitor start motors.
• Normal Arcing : Brush motors, thermostatic contacts, wall switch and appliance plugs.
• Non-Sinusoidal Waveforms : Examples of devices creating these electrical waveforms include electronic lamp dimmers, computer switching-mode power supplies and fluorescent lamps.
• Cross Talk: This test measures trip avoidance for an AFCI when an arc is detected in an adjacent circuit. Only the circuit with the arc should cause the breaker to trip. Not another circuit.
Through the use of the National Electrical Code requirement and extensive UL testing, NEMA manufacturers AFCI products provide superior protection against arcing faults. '"
Well when I get to that stage in my build I'll let you know how it goes. I plan on bringing in two dedicated circuits from the panel to run all of my equipment. I may go ahead and install them seeing as how it's code now anyways. Maybe if I can find them at H.Depot then I could always return them if they seem to be an issue. I'll be running probably about 4-5 power supplies for all of my lights on one circuit and then all of my pumps on the other.

 

[2quills]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit/20#post_3409120
Hi, I don't know a thing about electricity.
I just want to be safe, I never heard of AFI, how do I know if I have them, what do they look like? I know GFCI look very different from regular outlets.
AFCI outlets look basically just like GFCI outlets do. But if they were installed by the builder of your home after the year 1999 then the builder would have more than likely just used afci breakers to protect the whole circuit. You can check your breaker panel and see if there are any breakers with a little reset button on them like this.

But odds are that if you've never had to reset one by now then you probably don't have them.

 

[flower]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Quills http:///t/387392/installing-a-gfci-unit/20#post_3409199
AFCI outlets look basically just like GFCI outlets do. But if they were installed by the builder of your home after the year 1999 then the builder would have more than likely just used afci breakers to protect the whole circuit. You can check your breaker panel and see if there are any breakers with a little reset button on them like this.

But odds are that if you've never had to reset one by now then you probably don't have them.
I do indeed have them...yay. We just had an electrician replace one last month...it tripped off and wouldn't go on no matter what.

 

[snakeblitz33]

AFCI's sound like a pain in the butt, but they could save your house or your life if used. I guess there's trade offs to everything we do.