Interesting debate--would like feedback

[kindaobsessed]

i've had cichilds for two years now and have grown somewhat tired of them. was seriously thinking of getting into the realm of $alt Water fish. the following was a reply in another forum that i'd like you to see. tell me what you think.

[hr]
This will no doubt spark the age-old debate.
Marine aquariums require more care and are clearly more expensive, but are very beautiful. I have a reef tank that had been established for about 2.5 years and is absolutely thriving, but I have no fish. I have spent probably $2000 on fish in these 2.5 years and not one is still among the living. I know a lot of people in the marine hobby and there are very few success stories with fish these days. There are so many people in the hobby now that the demand outpaces the ability to collect fish without drugs.
The harvesting of rock and fish for marine aquariums is unethical. Most, if not all, saltwater fish are collected with drugs. They look great for a few weeks to a few months then die. Collection organizations that say they don't use drugs just haven't been caught yet. Live rock is frequently hacked right off the reefs.
Marine fish aren't happy in captivity....the ecosystems are far too complex, so they don't breed in captivity (with few exceptions.)
If an animal is happy enough to breed in captivity, then you're doing something right.
My conscience and wallet made me want to give cichlids a try and I must admit I'm hooked. I feel really guilty about contributing to the marine hobby that destroys the reefs that I admire so much. I'm not planning on further pursuing any marine aquaria for the time being.
My corals and inverts are perfect and reproduce constantly, so I know the tank conditions are right. Clownfish are the only fish that I have seen that appear happy in captivity...they will also reproduce in captivity and are usually tank-raised in the LFS. They are a good bet to start with. I wouldn't buy any live rock. Make your own base and seed the tank with coralline algae. Check out www.garf.org if you want to see the right way to build a reef.

 

[bang guy]

IMO anyone who has spent $2000 on fish and none lived has absolutely no clue on how to care for saltwater organisms. I believe any opinion they express should be discounted based on their admission to being incompetent.
Guy

 

[acez28]

dont agree with all he said but.....i have had my Huma Huma Trigger and my Sailfin Tang for a lil over a year. So that about they die in a few months is bull$&*@. I have also had my coral banded shrimp almost a year.

 

[jim mcgonigle]

I've been in the hobby for about a year and a half. It seems to me like most beginners don't learn anything and just buy fish w/o any concern about size, compatability or care. How you could possibly buy $2000 in fish that quickly beats me. Personally, I won't put a new fish into my tank until after at least 3 months pass. I even waited a year before I put my angel in to make sure it was well established.
All of my fish, w/ the exception of 1 who appeared to die of just old age are still living.
- Domino Damsel 1.5+ years (he was an adult in my brothers aquarium for over 2 years before this)
- Clownfish 1 year 3 months
- Firefish 1 year
- Flame Angel 2 weeks and happy
Showing a little maturity goes a far way in this hobby.
Are they happy? Don't know, but it doesn't seem to be any different then our 2 cats and I think they are happy...
IMHO

 

[mightyoxjuice]

I am being very patient with my fish right now.......maybe even too patient. Tank set-up is over 6 months since it cycled. Approximately 180 pounds of live rock and 120 pounds of live sand.
Inhabitants:
30 astrea snails
150 blue leg hermit crabs
coral banded shrimp
sally lightfoot crab
percula clown
coral beauty
blue damsel
No fish have been added for 6 months to my 150.

 

[dindi]

I have had my clown surgeon for 1 year, my coral beauty for 2 years I still have every invert like my shrimps and a little carpet anenome since I first added my coral beauty, all are well so far. I did lose 3 fish but it was my fault, I'm suprised I didn't lose them all.

 

[jagermeister]

I totally disagree. I wouldn't say salt water is harder than fresh water, just a little more complex. I've done both fresh and salt and I have to say that I like the salt water hobby infinitely more than freshwater. After taking care of marine animals I think fresh water is rather boring now. But that's just my opinion.
I've spent about $50 on fish and all of them are doing great after 6 months.
It is true that collection by poison and destruction of reefs has occured but I believe it's on the decline as strict laws are imposed and foreign governments begin to realize the economic benefits of protecting their natural resources for tourism and maintaining sustainable collection practices.
If you're concerned about this then research where you buy your animals and live rock from. More and more fish are being tank bred all the time. People are getting into the business of propogating corals. In fact, as a beginner, I believe the best place to get coral is from people selling frags from their tank stock. It's much cheaper than the fish store and you know it's not coming from a reef. Also, about live rock, you can find companies who mine rock from inland, dump it in the sea, and collect it months later thereby creating live rock without hurting local reefs.
I'd say if you're interested in the hobby then go for it! I'm glad I did!

 

[broncofish]

I don't think I've ever seen a freshwater fish look as happy as say a puffer. Come on these guys thrive on interaction, they even beg for food in some cases. My boxfish is the same way. As far as breeding, look at Bang Guys tank. Everything in his tank want to get it's groove on(really bang do play Barry White for them or something?). Soon there will be more tank bred saltwaterfish then ever, and eventually tank raised will be the only way(at least in my perfect world).

 

[jtroutine]

Totally disagree!!!! I think this guy didnt have good luck for whatever reason. One thing I do agree with is the fact that marine aquariums are more complex, BUT if you are the kind of person that likes to expand thier mind and like beatiful fish then marine is a good consideration, IMO the complexity was what mostly attracted me to this hobby, it is a challenge. As far as what he was saying about collection methods, never heard of such a thing could be wrong, but I do know that if it was the way he makes it sound fish buisness would be out of buisness. I think this guy is jealous of people that are succesful with marine. I dont think he even has reef tank IMO for the mere fact that reef require for stable water conditions and are overall more complex then say a fish only (FO) or even a fish only with live rock (FOWLR). If he can keep his water paremeters that good to support reef then how the hell to he go through all them fish...oh thats right marine catchers(lack of better term) are druging the fish....whatever!!! Hey if you are interested in marine I say GO FOR IT!!!! Spend some time on this board and a research a lot, this hobby takes patience. The reward is so worth it. That and when you tell people or try to tell people in most cases how your system works and they look at you like you are speaking a different language you can think in your mind hey I have a unique knowledge of something complex, saltwater aquariums have so many other rewards other then the sheer beauty. This is all just my opinion, dont mean to offend anybody

 

[mdhyde]

LOL@bangguy for poiting out the obvious. I agree. If you lose $2000 worth of fish, you arent doing something right.
I disagree. In the wild, many critters must live in constant fear of being eaten. IF they are lucky enough to find their way to an experienced fish keeper, they are MUCH happier in their safe home!
With the new LR being acquacultured, destroying reefs will soon be a thing of the past. Same with fish.
And lastly, a comment on corals.
They are harder to keep. But are they happier in the wild???
Let's assume again, the corals are bought by a knowlegable, experienced reefer who knows his stuff and takes excellent care of his tanks. Here are the coral's choices.
Live in the wild in an environment where nutrients and space are EXTREMELY scarce and must be FOUGHT over.
Or live in a safe place where they are surrounded by so much nutrients they can't suck it all up.
If I ever die, I want to come back as a hardy coral that goes to an experienced reefer. Or maybe an algae blenny in one of the many algae infested tanks posted here. ahahahahaha

 

[dindi]

Well jager I'm your fan because that's all I like, now I bought 3 fish from the Red Sea, a Golden butterfly a Crescent angle and a Clown surgeon. I let my water become detirated. I lost my golden butterfly his name was Holiday and my beautiful crescent angle Mooch. Hey they cost $$$$ It was my fault. In this hobby it's always the keepers fault. Now, how are these fish caught? I don't know but my alaskan king crab legs taste mighty fine along with my scallops. No one cares when you buy fish or crabs from the sea to eat so why do they care if you want to keep and protect them so we can enjoy? Maybe one day it will be the fish hobbiest responsiblity to seed the ocean.

 

[tangman99]

I also disagree. My Yellow Tang is almost 3 years old and my Percula clown in 2. I've only had a few fish die. The majority I returned when I converted to a reef because they were not compatible.

 

[tahoe ocean]

I think that the author of that post has obviously never been here to get the awsome advise of the people here.
I do have to say, I have a 4 yr old false percula (aquacultured) and a 2 yr old tomato clown (also aquacultured). I am proud to say that now that I am getting better advise here I hope to have everyone in my tank around for a long time!
I also have freshwater fish but do not get nearly as much pleasure from them and in all honesty I think they take more maint. now that my SW is stable. However for the last 6 years, it's been a labor of love.

 

[sebae0]

another disagree, i have had fresh water fish for more than 15 years and if i never set up my salt tank i would be out of the hobby by now. i had every freshwater fish there is and have gotten bored to death with them. salt fish and reefs keep you interested every minute of every day, i lay awake thinking of my saltwater tank some nights. today with increased knowledge of marine reefs and fish i beleive more fish and corals are going to be aquacultered where we can support our hobby thru this.
the knowledge on this board is enough to clue you in on that.!