Invertebrates keep dying

psuguy

Member
Over he past few months I have tried to keep some invertebrates in my FO tank. All have dies after about a week or two (pin-cushion urchin, chocolate chip sea star, and now a sea hare). They seem fine and then one day they are dead. The fish for the most part are healthy. Some details:

60 gallon tank
canister filter with spray jet
one small powerhead
T5 lighting

Parameters:

Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all undetectable
PH = 8.2

Inhabitants:
yellow foxface
percula clown
2 yellow tail damsels
3 black and gold damsels
niger trigger
dragon wrasse
1 medium sized hermit crab
5 tronchus nails

Any ideas what could be killing off the inverts and not the fish?

I am still new to this hobby and could use the advice.

Thanks
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
I nominate the dragon wrasse - they eat a variety of crustaceans, starfish and sea hares. That is also the reason your rockwork seems to look a little different every morning (just guessing).
 

psuguy

Member
I know that the dragon wrasse (who is a juvenile) moves my sand and other things around. However, with the sea urchin and sea star in particular, I watched them die - the urchin losing all its spines and the seastar losing its "chocolate chips" abd then splitting apart before my eyes. The sea hare was fine yesterday and then this morning was just dead with no signs of being attached
 

jay0705

Well-Known Member
Hmm its on the young side. I don't do reef tanks. So idk if the .22 is low for inverts. I know reefs r usually around 1.025-1.027 ish. But I think that's for corals.i keep mine at 1.023 but my inverts r snails and shrimp
 

psuguy

Member
This is NOT a reef tank. It is a Fish-Only tank. Anybody have success wuth these kind of inverts in an FO tank?
 

jay0705

Well-Known Member
I run a fowlr tank. I have star fish that hitched in on my lr and there doing good. Just a thought have u gotten these all from the same place?
 

geridoc

Well-Known Member
My experience with inverts in my FO tanks has been mixed. I have a red serpent starfish that is 2 years old and several Mexican turbos and one hermit in my 220 that also go back more than a year. But there are plenty of empty shells on the substrate, indicating past losses. Inverts are far less tolerant of changing/inadequate water quality than are fish. For example, fish are osmoregulators, so they will tolerate specific gravities ranging from 1.009 up to well above 1.027 so long as the change is gradual. OTOH, inverts are conformers, and cannot repond to changed salinity. 1.022 may be a little low, but probably not disastrously so.
 

psuguy

Member
I just order a protien skimmer and more powerful water pump to increase circulation and water quality. I hope this helps
 

psuguy

Member
I do not have live rock. I was trying to keep the costs down and just went with some base rock instead.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by psuguy http:///t/396496/invertebrates-keep-dying#post_3532810
Over he past few months I have tried to keep some invertebrates in my FO tank. All have dies after about a week or two (pin-cushion urchin, chocolate chip sea star, and now a sea hare). They seem fine and then one day they are dead. The fish for the most part are healthy. Some details:

60 gallon tank
canister filter with spray jet
one small powerhead
T5 lighting

Parameters:

Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all undetectable
PH = 8.2

Inhabitants:
yellow foxface
percula clown
2 yellow tail damsels
3 black and gold damsels
niger trigger
dragon wrasse
1 medium sized hermit crab
5 tronchus nails

Any ideas what could be killing off the inverts and not the fish?

I am still new to this hobby and could use the advice.

Thanks

Hi,

Rock...alive with little critters, or dead and dry (base rock), it doesn't matter. As long as you have enough to have an adequate amount of good bacteria growth, so how much rock do you have in there? Now to try and answer your question....

What type of, and what brand of test kit are you using? A 60g tank needs the surface water to move, and I always used 2 power heads. One should be pointed toward the surface, unless you have a spray bar on the canister filter. Did you originally fill the tank with mixed salt and RO (reverse osmosis) or tap water? What water do you use to do top offs with?

I have a serious hard time believing a 6 month old, fish only system with reef inverts, has not a detectable trace of nitrates. UNLESS, you got the seahare to feed on an outbreak of hair algae...if you have hair algae, then your nitrate test will give you a false negative...because the hair algae, just like any macroalgae, feeds on the nitrates...and phosphates, which if it's high enough will kill all sensitive inverts, such as urchins, CC stars and sea hares. If you don't have high nitrates and phosphates, hair algae can't live.

If you don't have enough hair algae, the seahare will starve, if the seahare is very young, and you don't have enough red turf algae, it will starve. If you don't have enough of regular algae, the urchin will starve. You know when an urchin is starving, all it's spines fall off. If the CC star is exposed to changing conditions, they break apart and die, right before your eyes. That change can be ... Not acclimated long enough, exposed to air too long, temperature swings, high phosphates, nitrates above 40 and last but not least, how it was captured and treated at the pet store you purchased it from. Oh and I almost forgot...exposed to electrical current, my sea star died and broke apart like that, after my heater broke and shocked the tank...but then every invert died, even the snails and hermits.

Fish do not care about nitrates, even at over 100, but inverts can't survive past 40.

I am not being mean, I'm honestly just curious....if you have been running a tank for 6 months, how do you not know what SG is?
 

psuguy

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///t/396496/invertebrates-keep-dying#post_3532844

Hi,

Rock...alive with little critters, or dead and dry (base rock), it doesn't matter. As long as you have enough to have an adequate amount of good bacteria growth, so how much rock do you have in there? Now to try and answer your question....

What type of, and what brand of test kit are you using? A 60g tank needs the surface water to move, and I always used 2 power heads. One should be pointed toward the surface, unless you have a spray bar on the canister filter. Did you originally fill the tank with mixed salt and RO (reverse osmosis) or tap water? What water do you use to do top offs with?

I have a serious hard time believing a 6 month old, fish only system with reef inverts, has not a detectable trace of nitrates. UNLESS, you got the seahare to feed on an outbreak of hair algae...if you have hair algae, then your nitrate test will give you a false negative...because the hair algae, just like any macroalgae, feeds on the nitrates...and phosphates, which if it's high enough will kill all sensitive inverts, such as urchins, CC stars and sea hares. If you don't have high nitrates and phosphates, hair algae can't live.

If you don't have enough hair algae, the seahare will starve, if the seahare is very young, and you don't have enough red turf algae, it will starve. If you don't have enough of regular algae, the urchin will starve. You know when an urchin is starving, all it's spines fall off. If the CC star is exposed to changing conditions, they break apart and die, right before your eyes. That change can be ... Not acclimated long enough, exposed to air too long, temperature swings, high phosphates, nitrates above 40 and last but not least, how it was captured and treated at the pet store you purchased it from. Oh and I almost forgot...exposed to electrical current, my sea star died and broke apart like that, after my heater broke and shocked the tank...but then every invert died, even the snails and hermits.

I am not being mean, I'm honestly just curious....if you have been running a tank for 6 months, how do you not know what SG is?
OK.. I know I need more base rock in the tank than I currently have. Some of the decorations are fake (plastic) rock but have lots of hiding places. I assume I should replace them with real rock.

I do have a spray bar on the canister than moves the surface water but I have just purchased an addiotnal powerhead to add more movement. I have the basic saltwater test kit that tests for PH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates using the drops (sorry - not at home and don't remember the name). The nitrates may have been detecatble, but were very low - definately below 40. I use tap water for filling and topping off (though I add clorine remover to the water).

I'm not sure what type of algae I have. There is green algae that grows on the glass, but I don't think it is hair alaea. And I have a lot of red algae along the back wall (I assume this is red turf).

Based on your descriptions it seems like the urchin starved and the CC star was exposed to something. If it was not acclimated long enough, would it still survive for almost two weeks before it died?

As to your last statement, I know what Specific Gravity is, just had a brain fart when I saw sg...
 

jay0705

Well-Known Member
See I thing good lr is huge in jump starting a tank. I have a 75 gal w about 75-85 lbs of good lr. The tank is almost a yr old. I've never had an issue w water related things. I use a hob filter and that's all. Just the biological filtration lr gives u helps out. I've seen tanks where people use just lr as there filter! I wouldn't try it but the stuff helps alot.
 

flower

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by psuguy http:///t/396496/invertebrates-keep-dying#post_3532845
OK.. I know I need more base rock in the tank than I currently have. Some of the decorations are fake (plastic) rock but have lots of hiding places. I assume I should replace them with real rock.

I do have a spray bar on the canister than moves the surface water but I have just purchased an addiotnal powerhead to add more movement. I have the basic saltwater test kit that tests for PH, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates using the drops (sorry - not at home and don't remember the name). The nitrates may have been detecatble, but were very low - definately below 40. I use tap water for filling and topping off (though I add clorine remover to the water).

I'm not sure what type of algae I have. There is green algae that grows on the glass, but I don't think it is hair alaea. And I have a lot of red algae along the back wall (I assume this is red turf).


Hi,

I have one corner of my 56g with live branch rock, but the rest is decorations (columns), I also keep macroalgae in both of my display tanks. In my 90g I have a wooden ships wheel, and an anchor that I coated with clear resin, it is held down with dried (was live, now dead) rock. As long as you have enough surface for the good bacteria to grow on, your tank is setup just fine. However, because you never used live rock, you need to purchase some reef critters (copepods, amphipods, isopods, bristle worms, micro stars, and sea slugs) to inhabit the rock you have, and breed...or add some pieces of live rock to seed the base rock. Those critters are part of the CUC and your little ecosystem needs them.

Tap water is not good to use. There is more in tap then choline. Your fish don't need fluoride, and there are several types of bacteria inhibitors (the very thing we are trying to get to grow) added besides. We want to use PURE water, that way the only thing in our tank is what we add with our salt mix, and any additives. Since the entire SW tank depends on the water quality, it's the one thing you can't skimp on. Walmart sells RO water for 37 cents a gallon, and while a having your own RO unit is best, there is no good reason to use tap.

I would say the tap water is responsible for the CC stars demise, since they need pristine water to survive.

If all you have is regular normal to have film algae, your urchin and seahare starved. A CUC (Clean Up Crew) of serpent or brittle seastars (not the green brittle), snails and hermits, your tiny critters found in live rock and bristle worms, take care of the regular algae, and any wasted food. You need to build the CUC slow, so there is plenty for everything to eat.

Red turf algae, and hair algae are both nuisance algae...you don't want it in your tank
, it will absorb nitrates and phosphates from the water, but it grow way out of control super fast. As for the red stuff developing on the back wall...??? a picture would help, however I seriously doubt
it's turf algae. Red or green, it looks like bunches of thin hair.

I'm glad you are not using test strips, and using lab type kits (drops)...but what brand? API and Red sea kits are not reliable. I use Seachem myself, and Instant ocean and Salifert are also good brands.

Putting macroalgae in your tank or refugium if you have it, would be super beneficial. Check out "Golf Coast Ecosystems"
 
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