Is Ich A Death Sentence?

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2518910
It is a preference. Not a necessity.
We are never at each other's throats, not that I have noticed anyway, it is all about the hobby and helping others

Have you noticed that the OP has not responded once? The OP wanted to know if ich was a death sentence. He had not quarantined his fish and has a full reef. He wanted to know his odds, in his other post, of the fish living with ich. I too do not think that you can miss ich in quarantine. You have to look at your fish, not in passing, but thoroughly LOOK at your fish during quarantine. This is not just our opinions, but based on our own experiences and the experiences of others that we have helped on here.
Agreed it is a preference
The at each others throats was made tongue in check hence the laughing
And I think you mean we can identity ick during the 3 to 7 days ick is in its parasitic stage come on sir Q if it was not for me you might be kicking the dog (a joke a joke)

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2518967
Agreed it is a preference
The at each others throats was made tongue in check hence the laughing
And I think you mean we can identity ick during the 3 to 7 days ick is in its parasitic stage come on sir Q if it was not for me you might be kicking the dog (a joke a joke)
You certainly make Disease and Treatment more interesting. I am going to start calling you Sir Q. Not for Quizzy, but for all of the questions about what myself and others post! I have had people with fish in dire circumstances that have not made me think and research as much as you have. My hat is off to you, quizz master

 

[alan1]

This has been a GREAT thread. You jokers have taught me more about ick in the last 10 min than I had learned in about 25 yrs.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Alan1
http:///forum/post/2519001
This has been a GREAT thread. You jokers have taught me more about ick in the last 10 min than I had learned in about 25 yrs.

While we may be using some humor, this is not a light subject. It is one to be taken seriously. I am glad that it helped you learn, after all, that is what we are here for

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2518989
You certainly make Disease and Treatment more interesting. I am going to start calling you Sir Q. Not for Quizzy, but for all of the questions about what myself and others post! I have had people with fish in dire circumstances that have not made me think and research as much as you have. My hat is off to you, quizz master

Well first let me say being knighted by you is an honor. But I must admit I was a little skeptical about knelling and exposing my neck to you.
Let me say in all honesty I have nothing but the utmost respect for your vast knowledge of all aspects of our hobby as well as your commitment to it. I hope you understand it is because of that knowledge that I for one question what you and other people say in respect to our hobby. I know full well you will come back with an answer that will benefit us all. I think it is important for us to not just except what we read but to question the reason behind it to get a better understanding of what and why it was said. I hope I can continue to make you research think and rethink things that you say to further my understanding along with others who look to you for advice.

 

[beth]

Biology is biology. To my understanding there is no so-called "dormant stage" in this parasite. If a misquote doesn't get blood, it dies; if a flee doesn't get blood, it dies; etc., and if ich can not feed on fish tissues, it dies. I believe the dormant theory derives from inadequate observation.

 

[al mc]

Here is my issue with observation in the QT environment. Most people, including myself, are hobbyist, not experts. Beth and Sep may be able to identify Ich 100% of the time during a 3 week QT. I am not sure that the same can be said for the rest of us. So, beside the cost of a refractometer
and a little extra care monitoring pH in a hyposalinity environment...Why not suggest that if you are willing to observe for 3 plus weeks..why not use hyposalinity at the same time just to make sure. There may be only 1-2 Ich parasites in the gills of the fish when you first put it in Qt. Maybe the first generation of new Ich continue to go undetected and you introduce Ich into your DT. Now you have real problems....fallow Dt, hypo or copper for lots of fish, loss of fish, loss of money...all for want of doing hypo while they are going through the normal Qt time.

 

[pontius]

a normal aquarium is an enclosed box of water. as far as I'm concerned, if you get ich in the tank and don't treat it, the fish are dead. I've dealt with it enough to know. there just is no where for a fish to go to get away from it when it's freeswimming and looking for a host.
I also agree that QT without treatment is a pointless thing. after having to clean out my display tank several times to treat ich, I finally started QTing all new fish with hypo. it's an aggravation in the shortrun, but worth it in the long run. I haven't dealt with ich since, and don't believe I'll ever have to again.
I don't even like floating bags of corals or inverts that have been in lfs tanks with other fish, because I know that the fish in my tank are 100% ich free and I want them to remain that way.

 

[beth]

Observation is a technique and practice that hobbyists need to get used to, and, more to the point, just do it and not be lazy about it. Regular NO light and a magnifying glass, along with daily observation while the fish is in QT is important, and not just for ich.
I don't have a problem if someone wants to do hypo as a preventative as long as the procedure is done appropriately. But don't just do it to avoid being involved in physically inspecting your fish. This is essential, and needs to be carried over to the animals' life in the display tank as well.

 

[sepulatian]

I don't have a problem if someone wants to do hypo as a preventative as long as the procedure is done appropriately. But don't just do it to avoid being involved in physically inspecting your fish. This is essential, and needs to be carried over to the animals' life in the display tank as well.
Exactly! Anyone that wants to hypo their new fish is welcome to do it. There is no argument about that at all. I often tell people that they may want to go ahead and hypo their new tangs, butterflies, and angels. The likelihood of these fish having the parasite on them is high. I personally do not think that it is necessary with most fish. Once again, I like to keep them in quarantine for extended periods of time for observation, not because I am worried about parasites after the three week mark. I do not quarantine new rock and inverts for six weeks. I quarantine them for three. I know by then that any parasites on them have died from lack of host. Understanding the life cycle of ich is very important to understanding how to successfully recognize and treat it.

 

[al mc]

Beth/Sep:I have no problem with the concept or implementation of the observation of all fish/inverts, etc. in a QT situation to pick up disease or other problems, then implementing a treatment plan. I try to practice this to the best of my ability with my QT procedures.
While neither of you are against the use of hyposalinity for new fish I would suggest that you consider advocating the use of it with all fish (exception..Mandarins) as Ich is by far the most talked about parasitic disease for fish in the swf hobby and probably responsible for more deaths than all other bacterial, fungal and parasitic diseases combined. I have never read (please advise otherwise if there are articles) that it is harmful in any way to fish. I would not argue for the use of methylene blue, copper, formalin or antibiotics as a preventative measure, but hyposalinity, if done correctly is effective and safe. It takes no more time than a regular 3-4 week QT procedure.
Please advise if you see any down side to this suggestion.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Al Mc
http:///forum/post/2519249
Here is my issue with observation in the QT environment. Most people, including myself, are hobbyist, not experts. Beth and Sep may be able to identify Ich 100% of the time during a 3 week QT. I am not sure that the same can be said for the rest of us. So, beside the cost of a refractometer
and a little extra care monitoring pH in a hyposalinity environment...Why not suggest that if you are willing to observe for 3 plus weeks..why not use hyposalinity at the same time just to make sure. There may be only 1-2 Ich parasites in the gills of the fish when you first put it in Qt. Maybe the first generation of new Ich continue to go undetected and you introduce Ich into your DT. Now you have real problems....fallow Dt, hypo or copper for lots of fish, loss of fish, loss of money...all for want of doing hypo while they are going through the normal Qt time.

Beth and I do not have some magic way of detecting ich. I am by no means an expert and do not claim to be. It is not hard to detect ich at all. Pay close attention to your fish. It is not as though one lonely parasite would make it through a 3-4 week quarantine period, hiding in the gills, and then throw a party once it enters the DT and wipe out all of your fish. It is one fish in a quarantine tank. If ich is present then it is going to fall off and reproduce. They reproduce by the hundreds. You would notice if ich was in the quarantine tank with only one host fish. You just have to watch the fish closely.
Originally Posted by Al Mc
http:///forum/post/2519577
Beth/Sep:I have no problem with the concept or implementation of the observation of all fish/inverts, etc. in a QT situation to pick up disease or other problems, then implementing a treatment plan. I try to practice this to the best of my ability with my QT procedures.
While neither of you are against the use of hyposalinity for new fish I would suggest that you consider advocating the use of it with all fish (exception..Mandarins) as Ich is by far the most talked about parasitic disease for fish in the swf hobby and probably responsible for more deaths than all other bacterial, fungal and parasitic diseases combined. I have never read (please advise otherwise if there are articles) that it is harmful in any way to fish. I would not argue for the use of methylene blue, copper, formalin or antibiotics as a preventative measure, but hyposalinity, if done correctly is effective and safe. It takes no more time than a regular 3-4 week QT procedure.
Please advise if you see any down side to this suggestion.
I simply do not think that it is necessary to hypo a healthy fish, with a few exceptions. When I do tell people to go ahead and hypo their new tang, they are the ones that suggest it first most of the time. Going back to why I do not do it, I want to observe my fish in the conditions that they will be in when they are in the display. Fish do react to lowering the salinity and raising the salinity. Sometimes they will not eat for a few days or show other indications of stress. They are usually fine again within a few days, but it is a change in environment no matter how you look at it. I prefer to not do that and I am not going to throw out a blanket statement of, "Always use hyposalinity on new fish". I don't believe it is needed. If someone asks me if they should then I will, and have, tell/told them that it is up to them. It is a choice for the hobbyist to make.

 

[al mc]

Sep..I accept your explanation although I respectfully disagree. I do feel that all new fish should go through hyposalinity unless they have specific dietary needs that would preclude it. It does no harm from what I have read and have personally seen. I am not suggesting that it is likely that one parasite will get through plain QT and explode once it hits a DT, but why take any chance that a hobbyist misses it when prevention through hyposalinity is
not much harder than plain QT.
I realize that I will not alter your opinion, or you will alter mine. If you do have any references where hyposalinity has negative effects in the short or long term on fish I will be happy to read them and alter my opinion.