Is it legal if...?

[yearofthenick]

Let's go through a hypothetical scenario:
A wealthy person gets out of his BMW (which I know he paid cash for) at a bank and takes $120 out of an ATM. I approach this wealthy person at the ATM and point a gun at him, demanding that he gives me the $120 he just withdrew from his account....
Is that legal?
What if I took the money and helped pay for someones medicine at a doctors office?
Is that still legal? It's a noble cause... and he doesn't need $120 if he has tens of thousands, so why should he care?
What if I got a hundred people to support me, and stand behind me while I aimed my gun at him and demanded the cash? What if I got 1,000 people to support me as I commited this act? One million?
THEN it must be legal, right?
Universal healthcare <b>requires</b> that all taxpayers have healthcare. If not, those people could be fined and imprisoned. People who prove that they cannot afford their own healthcare will be provided healthcare subsidized by the government, using funds that other taxpayers give for the same healthcare.
So tell me this, if I am required (to the point that I could be fined and imprisoned if I don't comply) to participate in this healthcare, and if the money that I pay helps to "subsidize" those who won't be paying for their own healthcare, then isn't this a similar situation? Isn't the government taking money out of my pocket and giving it to those who don't have to pay for healthcare?
Tell me how this is fair.

 

[bionicarm]

Because Obama says it is. Live with it, or move to France...

 

[lovethesea]

its not and thats why it hasn't gone anywhere. Trying to reinvent the wheel is what our government does. This administration is throwing everything against the wall and seeing what if anything sticks. All the while printing ooodles and oodles of money hoping we don't see that either.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3280542
Because Obama says it is. Live with it, or move to France...
No, Obama doesn't say... WE say. Have you lost your ability to think for yourself and is it preferrable for you to just follow whatever the leader is saying? What is the motivation behind graying the lines? The constitution was pretty clear that you have free speech and they're graying that. The right to bear arms - trying to gray that too. How is that acceptable?
The purpose America came into existence was to be different from other nations, and it's what made us the nation everyone wants to come to - because it was a place of freedom and opportunity. But it's only a matter of time before tyranny sets in here as well.
Forget about our religious differences - can't you see the overtaking that is underway?
Beyond this, the goal for every parent is to hand down something to the next generation in better condition than it was when we inherited it ourselves. I don't want my kids to live not knowing what it is to be an American.

 

[handbanana]

 

[scottnlisa]

Universal health care works in other countries. People fear things they don't understand like universal healthcare. Universal healthcare might not go anywhere right now but in 50 years I betcha there will be universal healthcare. Just got to get the older generation out of here and when our generation gets to be the older generation, we will accept(most of us) change as will the younger generation.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3280555
No, Obama doesn't say... WE say. Have you lost your ability to think for yourself and is it preferrable for you to just follow whatever the leader is saying? What is the motivation behind graying the lines? The constitution was pretty clear that you have free speech and they're graying that. The right to bear arms - trying to gray that too. How is that acceptable?
The purpose America came into existence was to be different from other nations, and it's what made us the nation everyone wants to come to - because it was a place of freedom and opportunity. But it's only a matter of time before tyranny sets in here as well.
Forget about our religious differences - can't you see the overtaking that is underway?
Beyond this, the goal for every parent is to hand down something to the next generation in better condition than it was when we inherited it ourselves. I don't want my kids to live not knowing what it is to be an American.
OK, try this one:
When November comes around, vote out every politician that voted FOR Obama's healthcare initiative. When 2012 comes around, vote out Obama, and bring in all of these Tea Baggers who will most likely shoot smoke out their butt and spin their own version of 'Hope And Change', promising to make the country "More American, and follow the values and principles handed to us by our Founding Fathers." Then when those guys get into office and follow the "Same Ole, Same Ole" political mantra that back-door politicians have been doing for the last 20 or more years, looking out only for themselves... Don't say I didn't tell you so.

 

[crypt keeper]

an E political fight on a saltwaterfish forum. wow so new and rare! I cant wait to see where that darth (i know all to all) Guy comes in and shakes his mighty know all sword. YIPPY!

 

[flower]

My .02
Let’s say Mr. rich has a cupboard full of food and refused to share, it’s his food..the government steps in and says share what you have. Then Mr. Rich screams not fair, I saved all that food for myself, who knows if Mr. Hungry even ever tried to save any of his food for later.
Well Mr. hungry isn’t very smart or frugal, but should he starve while Mr. Richs has more than enough to live on?
For me I see it this way…Jesus taught that if a man has two coats let him impart to him who has none. So to Mr. Rich who was treated unfair, because he was smart and prepared for that rainy day…Since he wasn’t treated fair in this life he has a reward that will come to him. Because I do believe what comes around goes around.
I work hard, and I have worked hard all my life. I pay my taxes, I would rather see Mr. President give some of my money to those with no health care, than put a man on the moon, which my taxes paid for as well. I have no choice where my money is spent, Mr. President was elected by the majority, and may he be wise with my cash that he takes to run the country.

 

[oscardeuce]

Originally Posted by scottnlisa
http:///forum/post/3280560
Universal health care works in other countries. People fear things they don't understand like universal healthcare. Universal healthcare might not go anywhere right now but in 50 years I betcha there will be universal healthcare. Just got to get the older generation out of here and when our generation gets to be the older generation, we will accept(most of us) change as will the younger generation.

So, you never heard of this Constitution thing?
How do you propose to "get the older generation out of here"?

 

[flower]

Originally Posted by oscardeuce
http:///forum/post/3280609
So, you never heard of this Constitution thing?
How do you propose to "get the older generation out of here"?

We will die off eventually...By then the now younger generation will be older and wiser..The cycle begins anew with their children wishing they would die so they can do things their way...

 

[reefraff]

According to people I've personally talked to from Canada, and even a Canadian on this very board has posted, Universal health care sucks compared to our system.
As far as is it legal I suspect we are going to find out. I personally don't believe the Constitution grant the feds the authority to force us to buy health insurance. If it was a government ran program I do believe it would be legal, like Medicare. Although it's a government program I have the OPTION to use a private carrier instead.

 

[kjr_trig]

Originally Posted by scottnlisa
http:///forum/post/3280560
Universal health care works in other countries. People fear things they don't understand like universal healthcare. Universal healthcare might not go anywhere right now but in 50 years I betcha there will be universal healthcare. Just got to get the older generation out of here and when our generation gets to be the older generation, we will accept(most of us) change as will the younger generation.
Name a country where it "works"...Just because other countries have it doesn't mean it works. Ask Canadians how well it works.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3280635
Although it's a government program I have the OPTION to use a private carrier instead.
Yes, you are correct. At the moment, you will have the choice to decide to use a private carrier. But you WILL be fined and ultimately imprisoned if you don't have anything, private or otherwise. But the problem remains - Private healthcare will eventually become so expensive/uncommon that most of us won't be able to afford it.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by Flower
http:///forum/post/3280586

My .02
Let’s say Mr. rich has a cupboard full of food and refused to share, it’s his food..the government steps in and says share what you have. Then Mr. Rich screams not fair, I saved all that food for myself, who knows if Mr. Hungry even ever tried to save any of his food for later.
Well Mr. hungry isn’t very smart or frugal, but should he starve while Mr. Richs has more than enough to live on?
For me I see it this way…Jesus taught that if a man has two coats let him impart to him who has none. So to Mr. Rich who was treated unfair, because he was smart and prepared for that rainy day…Since he wasn’t treated fair in this life he has a reward that will come to him. Because I do believe what comes around goes around.
I work hard, and I have worked hard all my life. I pay my taxes, I would rather see Mr. President give some of my money to those with no health care, than put a man on the moon, which my taxes paid for as well. I have no choice where my money is spent, Mr. President was elected by the majority, and may he be wise with my cash that he takes to run the country.
I know we've had our differences, but this is an area where you make a GREAT point!
Here's the only area where I disagree - There will always be greedy people. The point of Jesus' teaching was to soften peoples hearts to share. When the government makes paying into healthcare mandatory, that's where I disagree... because we no longer even have the choice. Personally, I think the wealth in this world is great enough to cure hunger, cure disease. Bill Gates with his $90 billion dollars could provide every tribe in africa with a well and clean water, and it would only scratch the surface of his iceberg of cash.
But the answer IS NOT by forcing it out of them. As I've said for years, it's about changing the hearts of people. Fighting with others to make healthcare mandatory, to force pro-life or pro-choice... all that... ultimately meaningless because it will go back and forth forever. Force and tyranny has never been the answer, but most people ARE capable of reason, and that's where the winning of an issue lives.

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3280714
Yes, you are correct. At the moment, you will have the choice to decide to use a private carrier. But you WILL be fined and ultimately imprisoned if you don't have anything, private or otherwise. But the problem remains - Private healthcare will eventually become so expensive/unusual that most of us won't be able to afford it.
Right now having the private carrier PPO it makes it easier to find a doc. In December I am probably going to drop Medicare and jump into my wife's insurance. 50 bux a month cheaper for similar coverage. I feel for the folks who don't have that option because when they pull the Medicare advantage rug out from under people's feet going back to traditional medicare is going to suck for a lot of people.
I really think the SCOTUS will smite Obama care because of the mandatory insurance requirement. Unless of course some shadowy government agency eleminates a conservative from the court before the case makes it there.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3280717
I know we've had our differences, but this is an area where you make a GREAT point!
Here's the only area where I disagree - There will always be greedy people. The point of Jesus' teaching was to soften peoples hearts to share. When the government makes paying into healthcare mandatory, that's where I disagree... because we no longer even have the choice. Personally, I think the wealth in this world is great enough to cure hunger, cure disease. Bill Gates with his $90 billion dollars could provide every tribe in africa with a well and clean water, and it would only scratch the surface of his iceberg of cash.
But the answer IS NOT by forcing it out of them. As I've said for years, it's about changing the hearts of people. Fighting with others to make healthcare mandatory, to force pro-life or pro-choice... all that... ultimately meaningless because it will go back and forth forever. Force and tyranny has never been the answer, but most people ARE capable of reason, and that's where the winning of an issue lives.
Using Bill Gates to prove your point is the wrong choice. I think he recently called out every Billionaire in the world to donate at least 50% of their net worth to some form of charity. That guy doesn't even plan to leave his kids but a few million bucks when he kicks off.
I think the premise behind Obama's plan to 'force' everyone to have some form of healthcare is in some way a way to actually save taxpayers money over the long run. Not sure about your state, but here in Texas, if someone walks into an ER saying they have a 'medical emergency', the doctor's are required by law to treat that patient whether they can pay for the treatment or not. How many billions of dollars are wasted each year on this type of treatment? If everyone had to get on some type of Wellness Program, what percentage of illnesses or deaths from obesity, herat disease, lung disease, and diabetes would be eliminated, thereby reducing healthcare costs overall for all US citizens? I have yet to see a final copy of the bill that was put into law, and exactly what the 'requirements' are for every American to get some form of health insurance. I have a strange feeling this law will get overturned in some form anyways before it goes into full effect in 2014. The way things are looking, it's the right-wingers race to lose in 2012 against Obama. If they get one of their people in the Oval Office, I imagine they'll repeal every single law Obama passed while he was in office, just to spite the guy.

 

[spanko]

I would bet if the "right wingers" as you called them take control of the congress in the mid term elections you will see some de-funding of the plan well before any repeal.
Originally Posted by bioncarm
If everyone had to get on some type of Wellness Program, what percentage of illnesses or deaths from obesity, herat disease, lung disease, and diabetes would be eliminated, thereby reducing healthcare costs overall for all US citizens?
So if everyone "has" to get on some wellness program, how does the government that mandates that enforce it? If I don't get on the wellness program prescribed by the federal government, will they jail me, deny me coverage, shoot me etc. etc.?
Do you really think that giving the government control of this will reduce health care costs? In order to reduce the costs, do our tax rates have to climb to cover those that are not already covered? Is it just taking money from one shoebox and putting it into another that will be even more costly trying to give everybody coverage? If the government controls the "insurance" will they also in an attempt to lower costs control what doctor's can charge, hospitals can charge, medical equipment manufacturers can charge, pharmaceutical companies can charge? If you regulate all of those charges do you think it will be a disincentive to companies to spend money on research and development to come up with new and improved drugs and equipment? Do you think that the doctor's that can leave and practice elsewhere for a better wage will stay in the U.S.?
More importantly do you think the seizure of control by the government will stop here?

 

[reefraff]

I actually agree about the requirement to buy insurance. I just don't think it's constitutional. I would like to have seen a provision where someone could maintain a HSA of a certain level to avoid having to buy health insurance. California used to have a little known provision where if you filed a bond with the state you didn't have to buy health insurance.
I wouldn't count Obama out in 2012. There is a chance the Republicans could take the house and Senate back this time around. Unless they come up with an extraordinary candidate I don't think I am going to trust them to run the whole show again. Don't know if I could make my hand pull the lever for Obazma but I would waste my vote on a 3rd party candidate. I suspect there will be a lot of other folks nervous about giving one party control again for a long long time after what we've seen the last 10 year.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by scottnlisa
http:///forum/post/3280560
Universal health care works in other countries. People fear things they don't understand like universal healthcare. Universal healthcare might not go anywhere right now but in 50 years I betcha there will be universal healthcare. Just got to get the older generation out of here and when our generation gets to be the older generation, we will accept(most of us) change as will the younger generation.

It always amazes me the number of people that say "it works in other countries" that have never experienced it. Define "works". I will not disagree that it "works". But to what degree does it "work". I have spoken with many canadians, I have friends that live in Germany, both tell me the systems "works" for them, because that is what they are used to. It "works" sure, but it does NOT "work top the level you are used to. Here is an example. You pay for and drive a 2010 BMW. Suddenly that is taken away and you are given a 1974 amc gremlin. Sure it drives...but does it drive as well or the same? This is the problem with "universal healthcare"...Sure it "works"
Originally Posted by crypt keeper
http:///forum/post/3280566
an E political fight on a saltwaterfish forum. wow so new and rare! I cant wait to see where that darth (i know all to all) Guy comes in and shakes his mighty know all sword. YIPPY!
Darth (just to make your day) Tang