Is it legal if...?

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3280810
It always amazes me the number of people that say "it works in other countries" that have never experienced it. Define "works". I will not disagree that it "works". But to what degree does it "work". I have spoken with many canadians, I have friends that live in Germany, both tell me the systems "works" for them, because that is what they are used to. It "works" sure, but it does NOT "work top the level you are used to. Here is an example. You pay for and drive a 2010 BMW. Suddenly that is taken away and you are given a 1974 amc gremlin. Sure it drives...but does it drive as well or the same? This is the problem with "universal healthcare"...Sure it "works"
Darth (just to make your day) Tang
Darth if your catching the bus in the rain, then that 74 AMC would look pretty good. I know a few Canadians and Brits who also don't have any problems with that style health care and honestly compared to what I pay 350.00 a month for it is better.
Fishtaco

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by scottnlisa
http:///forum/post/3280560
Universal health care works in other countries. People fear things they don't understand like universal healthcare. Universal healthcare might not go anywhere right now but in 50 years I betcha there will be universal healthcare. Just got to get the older generation out of here and when our generation gets to be the older generation, we will accept(most of us) change as will the younger generation.

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3280816
Darth if your catching the bus in the rain, then that 74 AMC would look pretty good. I know a few Canadians and Brits who also don't have any problems with that style health care and honestly compared to what I pay 350.00 a month for it is better.
Fishtaco
Except...NO ONE in this country is standing at the bus stop in the rain. (everyone must be treated at the emergency room). They may be on the bus....But to take 85% of the country out of their lexus/bmw/toyota and put them in a gremlin just to placate to the 15% on the bus and upgrade them to a gremlin...seems kinda backwards, IMO.
You are missing what I am saying about the other countries. They are fine with their system...BECAUSE it is what they know and are used to....I am not referrencing cost, I referencing level of care/service.

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by scottnlisa
http:///forum/post/3280560
Universal health care works in other countries.
This is where I take issue - America isn't supposed to be like other countries. We didn't make the trip over to America to create another Europe. We wanted something different. Once you decide to go back to the way things were before they made the pilgrimage, you go against everything they made the journey for.
Why can't people just move to these "other countries" if they like this socialized healthcare so much? Why do they have to mess with my freedom and the freedom of others?

 

[beaslbob]

IMHO
It is not about taking care of the poor.
providing jobs
taking care of the sick
providing food
providing cell phones
providing clothing
providing shelter
protecting people
What it is about is the process of how all that is done.
my .02

 

[yearofthenick]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3280819
But to take 85% of the country out of their lexus/bmw/toyota and put them in a gremlin just to placate to the 15% on the bus and upgrade them to a gremlin...seems kinda backwards, IMO.
That's because it's stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. Obama is going all "Robin Hood" on us.
If I worked hard to make enough money to buy a nice car and actually buy a nice car, I deserve it because I used my own money which I earned by working to buy it. If someone chooses instead to work only a little and ends up taking the bus to get to work each day, then that's also his choice.
What I DO NOT understand is why the person who only works a little feels ENTITLED to TAKE money from the hard worker, ultimately blaming it on the "greed" of the hard worker.
But is the hard worker really greedy? Or is it the lazy one? I would say that true greed comes from someone who seeks to get something for nothing. Greed is a powerful lust that can overtake a person very easily.
The hard worker with the nice car is not greedy, he's motivated. He wants nice things so he breaks his back, sweating in the sun to earn the money to get those nice things.
The idiot who doesn't want to work and takes the bus is the one who harbors the true greed. He does not want to work hard, but instead looks for ways to get what he wants as quickly and easily as possible. Taking it from the hard worker is the easiest way to get it.

 

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3280819
Except...NO ONE in this country is standing at the bus stop in the rain. (everyone must be treated at the emergency room). They may be on the bus....But to take 85% of the country out of their lexus/bmw/toyota and put them in a gremlin just to placate to the 15% on the bus and upgrade them to a gremlin...seems kinda backwards, IMO.
You are missing what I am saying about the other countries. They are fine with their system...BECAUSE it is what they know and are used to....I am not referrencing cost, I referencing level of care/service.
I don't believe 85% percent of the country has decent health care or if they do they have not had to deal with insurance companies when a loved one has a major illness. I am not poor, do no expect others to pay for my health care or am I greedy at all, at some point their is a real disconnect between the coverage people actually get and what they think they have until the worse happens. We all know that if the GOBP introduced universal health care at least half of those currently opposed to it would actually be for it. What I do expect is for health care insurance to do what they say the product is going to do and not make people who are dieing of terminal cancer or some other disease fight them for every penny and face being dropped and bankrupting the family causing them to not only lose a loved one, but their house and savings. Before you say it does not happen I saw this exact thing happen to a good friend of ours, they had insurance, they made at least 200 thousand a year and ended up losing everything including their life, so if you think you make enough money to feel safe from this, I would advise you to think again.
Fishtaco
Fishtaco

 

[reefraff]

I am watching Obazma doing the hard sell on his health care plan now. On the day it was announced premiums will rise 20% he is still claiming it will lower costs.
I really don't know if repeal and replace is the right way to fix this disaster. If it stands up to the court challenges I would say try to pass some "fixes" to help with the cost side, Tort reform, premium or co pay adjustment for pre existing etc. It isn't going to make our overall situation any better by just adding a bunch of new people to the insurance roles. Obama might think he can force the companies to hold their premiums where they are but I think he is in for a rude awakening.

 

[fishtaco]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3280830
I am watching Obazma doing the hard sell on his health care plan now. On the day it was announced premiums will rise 20% he is still claiming it will lower costs.
I really don't know if repeal and replace is the right way to fix this disaster. If it stands up to the court challenges I would say try to pass some "fixes" to help with the cost side, Tort reform, premium or co pay adjustment for pre existing etc. It isn't going to make our overall situation any better by just adding a bunch of new people to the insurance roles. Obama might think he can force the companies to hold their premiums where they are but I think he is in for a rude awakening.
Of course he is in for a rude awakening, big business owns the congress.
Fishtaco

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3280828
I don't believe 85% percent of the country has decent health care or if they do they have not had to deal with insurance companies when a loved one has a major illness. I am not poor, do no expect others to pay for my health care or am I greedy at all, at some point their is a real disconnect between the coverage people actually get and what they think they have until the worse happens. We all know that if the GOBP introduced universal health care at least half of those currently opposed to it would actually be for it. What I do expect is for health care insurance to do what they say the product is going to do and not make people who are dieing of terminal cancer or some other disease fight them for every penny and face being dropped and bankrupting the family causing them to not only lose a loved one, but their house and savings. Before you say it does not happen I saw this exact thing happen to a good friend of ours, they had insurance, they made at least 200 thousand a year and ended up losing everything including their life, so if you think you make enough money to feel safe from this, I would advise you to think again.
Fishtaco
Fishtaco
I have no issue with changing some of the rules as far as caps and pre existings. My opposition is to making all these changes that are going to raise everyone's rates while ignoring any cost savings measures.

 

[beaslbob]

Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/3280832
I have no issue with changing some of the rules as far as caps and pre existings. My opposition is to making all these changes that are going to raise everyone's rates while ignoring any cost savings measures.
I think it realitively simple and easy to understand. You increase coverage and the premiums will go up.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by Fishtaco
http:///forum/post/3280828
I don't believe 85% percent of the country has decent health care or if they do they have not had to deal with insurance companies when a loved one has a major illness.
Fishtaco
Fishtaco
define "decent" healthcare. I am also not arguing that the health insurance system is perfect or does not need tweaking. What I am pointing out or concerned with is the impact the legislation will have one on the heathcare system, not from an insurance side, but from the side of care given/available/received.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3280835
define "decent" healthcare. I am also not arguing that the health insurance system is perfect or does not need tweaking. What I am pointing out or concerned with is the impact the legislation will have one on the heathcare system, not from an insurance side, but from the side of care given/available/received.
I'd categorize 'decent healthcare' as having a maximum of $1,000 deductible/ $3,000 out-of-pocket max annually for each family member. Also the premiums weren't over $300/mointh for an entire family of four.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3280871
I'd categorize 'decent healthcare' as having a maximum of $1,000 deductible/ $3,000 out-of-pocket max annually for each family member. Also the premiums weren't over $300/mointh for an entire family of four.
You're mixing health insurance with healthcare....there is a difference.
The other countries their cost is not the issue. The issue is the level of care and the service rendered in a timely fashion which everyone neglects. THAT is my concern. Not the cost of insurance. buit how the bill will affect the actual CARE. You are talking cost, I am talking care.

 

[bionicarm]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3280876
You're mixing health insurance with healthcare....there is a difference.
The other countries their cost is not the issue. The issue is the level of care and the service rendered in a timely fashion which everyone neglects. THAT is my concern. Not the cost of insurance. buit how the bill will affect the actual CARE. You are talking cost, I am talking care.

Decent care? Not having to wait 3 months to see a specialist. Not having to wait over a week to see a GP. Getting free or low-cost wellness care.

 

[beaslbob]

You know this is great.
I think it should be applied to everything.
For instance I'm screwed if I don't have shelter.
We all need shelter so it should be a right.
So I should get insurance with no preexisting conditions for my house. Just like with the right of health care.
then I can wait for it to burn down and buy the insurance.

 

[scsinet]

Originally Posted by YearOfTheNick
http:///forum/post/3280540
Let's go through a hypothetical scenario:
A wealthy person gets out of his BMW (which I know he paid cash for) at a bank and takes $120 out of an ATM. I approach this wealthy person at the ATM and point a gun at him, demanding that he gives me the $120 he just withdrew from his account....
Is that legal?
Yes. You can actually go into the bank and do this with a teller and get a whole lot more.
Technically it's called an illegal withdrawl, but it's not *really* a crime, so let's call it an "undocumented withdrawl."

 

[reefraff]

Originally Posted by bionicarm
http:///forum/post/3280883
Decent care? Not having to wait 3 months to see a specialist. Not having to wait over a week to see a GP. Getting free or low-cost wellness care.
You REALLY don't want socialized medicine then.
I don't think anyone should be able to walk into a doctors office and leave without have to pay something. That is incentive not to waste a doctor's time for every little ailment. Other than that I dunno. We got to get control of the costs. Whether you pay for your own or someone else does it does we the people as a whole no good to keep paying the useless costs built in to medical care.

 

[yearofthenick]

Another issue I have with socialized medicine is that the government can control who gets help and who doesn't. Preexisting conditions can be factored in and before long, they can make it much more difficult. If you look at the rest of the world's socialzed healthcare as a template, you will see what I am talking about.
We have a pastor here whose wife had cancer twice. They drove to Mexico and got treatments down there, and she's better now - cancer is gone. With socialized medicine, she would be rejected if she ever needed a hip replacement because of her preexisting condition.
There were other people from all over the world at this same clinic where she got treated for cancer. All of them said they were refused help in their native nations... they had to come to mexico (of all places) to get helped. This is the direction our country is going.
Did you know that in Canada it's gotten so bad that they have a lottery to see who gets healthcare and who doesn't? Full story below from the Wall Street Journal....
http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/08/...drop-patients/

 

[vinnyraptor]

the Govt takes your money and spends it where ever it chooses, always has. the biggest chunk of our taxes goes to defense. how many rich pacifist's are out there? they dont want their taxes going to the pentagon or to build weapons, jets, battle ships, etc. yet they pay their taxes. i get where you were trying to go with your scenario, but that can be said for every government agency and program. i NEVER wanted an Iraqi invasion or its cost but i couldn't do anything about it. i didn't want the wealthiest 5% to get tax breaks, but i couldn't do anything about it. i didn't want corporations to get tax incentives to move jobs overseas, etc.
you said one thing right. "it's a noble cause" and boo hoo because your against it. EVERY industrialized DEMOCRATIC nation has some form of nationalized healthcare except us. why cant the richest nation on the planet provide basic healthcare to it's citizens regardless of income. will the rich pay for most of it? probably, and why is that so bad? your telling me most folks would rather have their tax dollar buy another needless Jet or 100 dollar toilet seat then go to save a life?
the only way it will work if everyone who can AFFORD it buy's in. that's why it's mandatory, and the fines are minimal and based on income. nobody will EVER go to jail for not buying in, but admittedly it will put a strain on the IRS. i just cant understand how anyone can REALLY be against it, especially Christians. how can you be O.K. with 50+% of your tax dollars going for defense, but against a nominal increase to provide everyone with healthcare?

 

[yearofthenick]

There is still a standard though. Pacifists are only alive because this world allows them to be weak enough. I will never understand how a pacifist would ever answer their door to find a burglar who wants to come into his home and r.a.p.e his kids, and then see this pacifist allow the burglar to do so. Even though I am a Christian, part of me wishes natural selection were true enough to exist in modern day... because I can guarantee these pacifists wouldn't make it.
The truth is that there is so much evil in this world that we need to be able to defend our lives... our right to exist. If you don't understand that, then take the locks off your doors - that's a form of defense - and stand firm in your pacifism... put signs out in your front yard so that everyone who passes by your home can know that if they wanted to come in and have their way with you and your family, you would not stop them. If you believe in pacifism as much as you do, at least be true to yourself and your beliefs and stand firm for them. I'd love to see how long you'll last.
Stealing is what I take issue with. If millionaires exist, it's because they figured out how to become millionaires. Good for them. This is the land of opportunity and they took that opportunity and ran with it. Just because homeless people didn't doesn't mean that the millionaire should pay for them. This all goes along my original point. People need to fight for their right to exist. They were given life and (unfortunately for them) they have to DO STUFF to sustain that life. Heaven forbid someone should have to work harder than they prefer in order to make a decent life for themselves.
I can guarantee you with every fiber in my being, every cent that I make, and everything that I posses, that MOST of the people on welfare ARE able to work and SHOULD work, but are too fu$king lazy or pathetic to get off their asses and do something. If America feels sorry for them, then they should do something a little more CONSTRUCTIVE than robbing from the rich and giving to the poor. There are scholarships for trade schools, ways of differing debt so people can get a good education... donations from non-profits, free housing, business advice, free career advice... all ready and waiting for someone with a little ambition to take.
Despite the economy, I currently hold two jobs, one of them full-time and one of them 3/4 time. I have two kids and a wife who doesn't have to work - she can stay at home and raise the kids herself (the best "babysitter" is the mother). We live in a 3-bedroom home in a good quiet neighborhood and we're happy. I hate it more than anything when people say they can't find a job. I found two - get off your ass and get half the amount of jobs I found.... then maybe you can contribute to society instead of sitting on your lazy ass and leaching off others who actually work and pay into taxes which goes to your welfare check.
This country was founded on freedom, opportunity and the right to defend yourself. The moment we take that away, we become just another nation in this world of compromise. Everything that this nation was founded on goes to the pigs. If you like socialized healthcare, move to Europe. It's a disaster there, it's a disaster in Canada and it will be a disaster here too.