Is this ich?

[oahogset]

First of all, thanks for a very informative fish-forum. I've learned alot just by browsing through a few threads.

My tank:

35 gallons hexagon
2 ocellaris clownfish
peppermint shrimp
cleaner shrimp
15-20 lb live lock
crushed coral as substrate
been stable for 3 monthsParametersH: 8.2
Specific gravity: 1.023
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: ~15 ppm
Temperature: 78°F

Today I noticed lots of white spots on my fish. At first I thought of ich, but studying the pictures in the disease section it also looks like brooklynella. I also notices that the clowns are hanging out further down in the tank than they have been. They didn't even use to go down between the rocks for food. They still have a great (and normal for them) apetite.
Either way I'm getting things ready for doing hyposalinity-treatment in a 10 gallon QT. Hopefully the refractometer (Sybon) I'm ordering online will arrive in time...
If it turns out to be brooklynella, will doing hyposalinity in combination with formalin-treatment do any harm?
Here's some pictures. The pictures of the other clown didn't turn out, but the spots on him look pretty much the same, just not as bad. Isn't it amazing how the clowns know to turn their head away every time you try to snap their picture?

 

[geridoc]

"If it turns out to be brooklynella, will doing hyposalinity in combination with formalin-treatment do any harm?" Not at all. Formalin alone is usually enough to deal with brooklynella, but hypo won't be a problem, and may actually help.

 

[sepulatian]

That is not brooklynella, that is very advanced Ich. That couldn't have just happened today. Is your quarantine tank cycled? If it isn't then pull your shrimp and rock out into the ten gallon and perform hyposalinity in the display. I see that you are waiting on the refractometer. Go to the LFS and pick up some methylene blue. Pull some water out of your display into a fish only bucket and add the fish. Add some Methylene to the water. Be very gentle when netting them. This med will help knock the parasites off of their body. If you cannot find Meth then pick up some Kick ick. Add that to the display. These fish are infested and cannot wait for relief.

 

[waterlogged]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
That is not brooklynella, that is very advanced Ich. That couldn't have just happened today. Is you quarantine tank cycled? If it isn't then pull your shrimp and rock out into the ten gallon and perform hyposalinity in there. Do you have a refractometer?
Would a freshwater dip help get some of it off until they can get salinity lowering for hypo?

 

[waterlogged]

Originally Posted by Waterlogged
Would a freshwater dip help get some of it off until they can get salinity lowering for hypo?
Sorry you must have edited your response while I was typing.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Waterlogged
Sorry you must have edited your response while I was typing.
I didn't post a fw dip but yes that will help. It can also go terribly wrong if the person doesn't know what they are doing. I will post it now. A FW dip will remove some of the parasites. Be certain that the Sg, temp, and PH are EXACTY the same as the display water. Dip them for one to three minutes. You must observe them the entire time. It is not unusual for them to breathe rapidly or even lay on their side. Pull them out if you notice the fish under even more stress.

 

[waterlogged]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
I didn't post a fw dip but yes that will help. It can also go terribly wrong if the person doesn't know what they are doing. I will post it now. A FW dip will remove some of the parasites. Be certain that the Sg, temp, and PH are EXACTY the same as the display water. Dip them for one to three minutes. You must observe them the entire time. It is not unusual for them to breathe rapidly or even lay on their side. Pull them out if you notice the fish under even more stress.
Sg?

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Waterlogged
Sg?
HA!

I guess I am too used to saying SG when I list things. Oopsie, my mistake

 

[waterlogged]

LOL. That would be funny if a newby did a freshwater dip in water with the same SG.

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by Waterlogged
LOL. That would be funny if a newby did a freshwater dip in water with the same SG.

Yeah, that was my bad. BTW, we forgot to say Welcome to the boards Oahogset

 

[oahogset]

Thanks alot all of you for very quick replies.
I did freshwater dip. I let them in for 2.5 and 3 minutes, since they were swimming around most of the time, just taking quick breaks lying down on the bottom. My gut feeling told me they were doing ok, so I let them in as long as you recommended.
My QT is not even set up yet, so I suppose moving the rock and shrimp to the 10gallon and treat the display tank is the best way. Should I move some of the substrate (crushed coral) to the QT as well? I suppose most of whatever lives in the coral at this time will die off during the hyposalinity period?
Again, thanks alot. Tomorrow I'm off to the closest marine-store...

 

[sepulatian]

Originally Posted by oahogset
Thanks alot all of you for very quick replies.
I did freshwater dip. I let them in for 2.5 and 3 minutes, since they were swimming around most of the time, just taking quick breaks lying down on the bottom. My gut feeling told me they were doing ok, so I let them in as long as you recommended.
My QT is not even set up yet, so I suppose moving the rock and shrimp to the 10gallon and treat the display tank is the best way. Should I move some of the substrate (crushed coral) to the QT as well? I suppose most of whatever lives in the coral at this time will die off during the hyposalinity period?
Again, thanks alot. Tomorrow I'm off to the closest marine-store...
Don't move the CC, there is no reason to. Move the rock and inverts into the 10. It will not cycle as it would with the fish in it. Did the FW dip help?

 

[oahogset]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
You can move some but that isn't neccessary. Move the rock and inverts into the 10. It wont cycle as it would with the fish in it. Did the FW dip help?
It looks like the dip helped rid some of the white spots, especially on the one I didn't submit a picture of. They both seem to be swimming around the tank like before, so the dip didn't hurt the fish - instantly anyways.

 

[sepulatian]

I am glad that they seem to be doing better. Pick up some Methylene blue tommorow. It costs about $3. I have used it many times. It soothes the fish's gills and will drop many of the parasites off of them. You can leave them in the bucket with the med for a few hours. Be sure to add a small powerhead to the bucket though if they will be in that long. I am not sure if I mentioned that the water that goes into the bucket comes right from the tank that they are in. There is no shock.

 

[oahogset]

Well, they are both alive, and very happy to be fed (as usual). Spots look about the same as last night. I'm trying to locate a petstore that has methylene blue...

 

[oahogset]

While waiting for the local stores to open around here, I've been reading more about doing hyposalinity.
I have decided to hypo the display tanks, since I don't have the QT set up and cycled. I'll just move my live rock and shrimp to the QT. If I add water and LR from my DT to my QT, the QT will (in theory) already be cycled, right? Or is it possible to get new spikes in ammonia and nitrite?
Maybe this is a good thing. My cleaner shrimp is loaded with eggs. It would be neat to get a couple of baby cleaner out of this.
To be able to calculate how much water I need to achieve the desired salt content, I need to convert from SG to salinity. Is there any reliable conversion tables out there? I have found a few, but they seem to vary by about 2ppt at any given temperature and SG. That's a big difference - ~6-7% at 32ppt. I know I will still need to measure SG continuously while doing hypo, but it would be nice to figure out approximatlely how much water to replace.

 

[oahogset]

Fish are back in the display tank after ~3 hours in methylene blue bath. Seems like they look about the same as last night. It looks like the spots are just as plentiful. Could it still be ich, even though the methylene blue or freshwater bath didn't seem to help much? Is there anything else I could try before doing hyposalinity?
I got my 10gallon set up and moved the live rock and shrimp in there, so the display tank is ready for hypo. I just hope I get the refractometer before it's too late.
Thanks alot in advance!

 

[sepulatian]

The pictures look like ich. None of the spots dropped off after the baths? The qt tank will not cycle with the rocks and inverts in there. Just so that you know, it is because of the light bioload and the rocks in there, not because you used water from your display tank. I don't want you to think that water from the display will allow a new tank not to cycle. If you were adding fish then you would see spikes. When is the refractometer comming? Add fresh garlic to their food to help them fight the parasites. Beth has directions for crushing your own in her Common Treatments FAQ.

 

[oahogset]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
The pictures look like ich. None of the spots dropped off after the baths? The qt tank will not cycle with the rocks and inverts in there. Just so that you know, it is because of the light bioload and the rocks in there, not because you used water from your display tank. I don't want you to think that water from the display will allow a new tank not to cycle. If you were adding fish then you would see spikes. When is the refractometer comming? Add fresh garlic to their food to help them fight the parasites. Beth has directions for crushing your own in her Common Treatments FAQ.
The most infested fish died this morning. The other one is eating, so I am gonna try fresh garlic-"juice" mixed in with the food as soon as my wife gets home from the grocery store. She also picked up an ich-medicine with formalin and malachite green as active ingredients ("Quick Cure™" by Aquarium Products®). Don't think I'm questioning your knowledge, but I know there are so many parasites out there, and so many that look almost identical. I was thinking since the methylene blue didn't seem to help, at least not noticable, maybe the parasite will be less resistant to formaldehyde or malachite green - your thoughts on this? These chemicals are more harmful to the fish, and I realize I might be taking a risk here... I'm just trying to find something to get some of the parasites off temporarily until I get my refractometer on Friday or Saturday. However, first I'm gonna try garlic, as you suggested. How long do you think it will take until I might notice a difference? Unfortunately none of the local stores around here carry anything other than hydrometers when it comes to monitoring SG/salinity.
I'm sad that I lost a fish, due to ignorance and carelessness, but at least I have learned my lesson. As Waterlogged's title says; "QT or suffer". My LR/shrimp tank will remain my QT after I get my DT back up and disease/parasite free.
Again, thanks alot for your time and energy spent on _my_ problems!

 

[sepulatian]

Quick cure is a pretty harsh medcation. If you are going to use it then use it in a bucket. Don't add any type of medication directly into the display tank. I don't mind you questioning anything. Most parasites look quite different and are easy to distinguish. This fish is covered quite badly and there are two that I was deciding between;Brooklynella and ich. The reason that I say that it is ich is because the dorsal fin is covered. Brooklynella affects the slime coat of the fish and you would see the slime coat peeling. There would be long stringy mucas comming off of the fish by now. If you do see that then let us know. That requires a different treatment.