Issues with interrupting vodka system ? Comparison vodka / Biofuel / MB7 ?

spanko

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchy in NY http:///forum/thread/384499/issues-with-interrupting-vodka-system-comparison-vodka-biofuel-mb7#post_3368270
..................So in summary my main question is risk to stop dosing during couple of weeks with any vodka, Brightwell Biofuel or MB7 approaches and then comparison of these approaches linked to such risk as well as efficiently for nitrate reduction & coral growth / color enhancement...............................

Thanks in advance
As with any system your hiatus from the tank doesn't mean someone won't be looking after it does it? I have done a week vacation here or there and have had my son, my sister in law, take over the tank maintenance while gone. When I say maintenance just feeding, dosing vodka, and removal of and replacement of filter floss.
I have a dropper with a mark on it showing how much vodka goes in on a daily basis. I measure out food to be added daily.
I have also left the tank for 3 -4- 5 days without feeding or dosing and no ill effects.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Interesting read, guys. So it sounds from your experiences that a sudden stop in dosing doesn't necissarily mean a tank crash which is also what I had been under the impression of from my limited amount of research in this area.
Some of the benefits to seem rather tantalizing and I'm wondering if I should give this ago on my next system. However I'm still a little unclear as to some of the risks. It doesn't seem that a sudden stop in the dosing is as huge of a concerne although I am of the phylosihphy as mentioned before that gradual changes when it comes to anything would be preffered. But life is life and sometimes stuff happens.
I'm a little more concerned about oxygen levels in the system and what might happen in the event of a power outage that lasts longer than 12+ hours. As someone who experience the great midwest power outage in 2003 the thought of something like that happening again, even if it were only for a day or two leads me to wonder what effects that would have on livestock. I have a couple of small battery operated air pumps but I wonder how much they would be able to help on a system 100g +.
 

nikesb

Active Member
a great risk i ran was using a small skimmer during the vodka dosing, which isnt a good idea. oxygen levels deplete rather quickly once the bacteria driven system has been established. IIRC spanko forgot to turn his skimmer back on one night and it led to some problems
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Since heterotrophic bacteria directly compete with the nitrifying bacteria for both surface area
Henry I was under the assumption that the heterotopic bacteria that we grow with the addition of a carbon source are suspended in the water column. As you saying it is colonized on the surfaces inside our systems and out competes nitrifying bacteria for space
 

spanko

Active Member
This is indeed my read on the heterotrophs that come form vodka dosing. I am saying that it can out compete for both space and ammonia if there is not sufficient nitrates and phosphates. Remember one of the reasons I started down the carbon dosing path was so that I could feed the tank heavily to affect polyp extension and coral color. My assumption is that I do have an overabundance of nutrient in my tank at some points in time that are utilized by all of the coral fish and bacteria competing for it. Now keep in mind that there are different heterotrophic strains that do grow with different carbon sources. Tis why some folks suggest VSV dosing. (Vodka - Sugar - Vinegar) So I am under the understanding that these differing strains perhaps occupy different space in the tank. Some I have read can even colonize on the coral.
Nike you are correct, I did have a problem when I forgot to turn everything back on after feeding. This includes the skimmer, return pump and the MP10. If I remember right this was all off from one feeding to the next or a total of about 24 hours. I lost a couple of fish in that mistake and attribute the loss directly to oxygen depletion in the tank. You see along with carbon, nitrates, phosphates the bacteria we are discussing here also use up large amounts of oxygen too.
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Ok henry but if some of the bacteria do in fact colonize on surfaces in our system and these bacteria out compete our nitrifying bacteria and have assimilated nitrates and phosphates we have no way of really effectively harvesting the biomass. Now this biomass will and can die off dumping nitrates and phosphates back into our already taxed system.
 

spanko

Active Member
Agreed to a point. Think about the mulm like material we talked about in another thread. I believe you said it accumulated in your sump. This is the bacteria. Also think about the film that people talk about on the glass. "The thing I noticed was the green algae on the glass doesn't have to be cleaned off as other but there is this film that appears."
This is indeed the heterotrophs. It is why in the "instructions" given for carbon dosing they tell you to immediately cut back 50% if you see a bacteria bloom in the water. In a properly operating system this material is removed by the skimmer and other mechanical filtering methods, as well as consumed as an additional source of food by the coral.
Tis the balance thing again and why I and you caution folks about getting into it. If you don't know the concerns up front you may be asking for trouble.
I think in the context of this discussion though this article on the subject is one that really helped me understand more.
Bacterial Blooms - Explained
Every fishkeeper has experienced a bacterial bloom at some point. They are common in new set-ups which are cycling, but can happen at any time. The water goes cloudy, almost like someone has poured a drop of milk into the tank, and no matter how many water changes you do, it doesn't go away. Sound familiar?
I hope to explain here exactly what a bacterial bloom is, the effect it can have, how to treat it and how to prevent it.
The Nitrogen Cycle
To fully understand about bacterial blooms, a knowledge of the Nitrogen Cycle is required. This is particularly relevant if you have recently set up the tank, as the cloudiness is most likely an indication of other problems.
What is a Bacterial Bloom?
There are 2 types of bacteria at work in our tanks:-
Autotrophic Bacteria
- Bacteria capable of synthesizing its own food from inorganic substances, using light or chemical energy. Our beneficial filter bacteria are autotrophs.
Heterotrophic Bacteria
- Bacteria that cannot synthesize its own food and is dependent on complex organic substances for nutrition. The heterotrophs in our aquariums mineralise the organic waste (break down the uneaten food, fish waste, dead plant matter etc into ammonia).
Contrary to popular belief, it is commonly the heterotrophs which are seen in our bacterial blooms, not our trusted autotroph nitrifiers.
It is the heterotrophs which are primarily responsible for creating the "bio-film" (slimy residue found on the tank walls and ornaments) which builds up in our aquariums.
The heterotrophs are generally bigger than the autotrophs and therefore don't attach themselves to surfaces with the same ease. They also reproduce much more quickly. Heterotrophs can reproduce in around 15 - 20 minutes, whereas autotrophs can take up to 24 hours to reproduce.
In a newly set-up aquarium, the heterotrophs get to work quicker than the autotrophs, causing the 'cycling bloom' we so often see. Blooms are almost certainly heterotrophic if they are caused by a build up of organic waste in the substrate, which most, if not all, are.
Bacterial blooms are common in tanks with apparently no organics present (for example, where all that is in the tank is water and ammonia for a fishless cycle). This is caused by the dechlorination of the water suddenly enabling the water to support bacterial populations. The heterotrophs immediately get to work on the organics in the water itself. The severity of the bloom and even whether a bloom happens at all is dependant upon the level of organics contained in the water supply.
Our autotroph nitrifiers are strictly aerobic (require oxygen), but the heterotrophs can be facultative anaerobic (they can switch between aerobic and anaerobic function depending on their environment). Therefore the heterotrophs in the substrate will be in their anaerobic state and breaking down the organic waste into ammonia, but if they bloom up into the water column, they will switch to their aerobic form and will start to convert the ammonia back to nitrite, although very inefficiently. The heterotrophs are around 1,000,000 times less efficient at ammonia oxidisation than our beneficial autotrophs as the heterotrophs are not true nitrifiers.
The Effects of a Bacterial Bloom
Most of the bacteria in the aquarium are aerobic as it is a oxygen dominated environment, and these bacteria require lots of oxygen. When the heterotrophic bacteria bloom into the water column and switch to their aerobic state, this is a big drain on the oxygen content of the water. Oxygen depravation is the only risk to the fish which i am aware of during a bacterial bloom, as the heterotrophs themselves are harmless to fish, so good advice is to increase aeration!

To help you to understand why bacterial blooms occur, overfeeding ,dead fish or dead plant matter will cause a rise in the reproduction of the heterotrophs in order to break down the organic waste, they re-produce too quickly to be able to attach themselves to a surface and this causes a bacterial bloom. As the ammonia production increases due to the increased mineralisation, the nitrifiers are slow to catch up (as i said above) and so you see an ammonia spike until the autotrophs reproduce enough to take care of it. Contrary to popular belief, bacterial blooms cause an ammonia spike, not the other way around.
It is unclear whether the autotrophic nitrifiers ever bloom into the water column or if they simply multiply too slowly to cause this effect.
Treatment and Prevention of Bacterial Blooms

A thorough gravel vac will certainly help the situation, as will trying not to overfeed. Also, increase aeration as I noted above. Water changes will probably not clear the cloudiness as when you remove the free-floating heterotrophic bacteria, the others will reproduce more to compensate. Given the reproduction rate of the heterotrophs, it would require a 50% water change every 15 - 20 minutes just to stop the bloom getting worse, and even more if you want to make any progress towards clearing the bloom.
However, water changes won't exacerbate the situation as it will be heterotrophs (which are producing ammonia) which are removed from the water column via the water change. A water change will remove virtually no nitrifying autotrophic bacteria from the tank at all as 99% of the nitrifiers are housed in the filter, not in the water column. Water changes are not essential in clearing bacterial blooms, as left alone, they will usually dissipate within a matter of days.
Reducing the amount of organic waste in your tank is the ultimate solution to treating a bacterial bloom, and avoiding a build up of organic waste in the tank is the best way to prevent a bloom. The best way to do this is to maintain a regular aquarium husbandry routine involving water changes and substrate vaccuuming.
As I said above, blooms are common in tanks with apparently no organic waste present, most commonly when only water and ammonia are in the tank for a fishless cycle. In this case, there are few easy ways to remove the organics from the water, and so my best suggestion is to sit it out and wait. Water changes with purified water would help as it would dilute the concentration of organics in the water. Reverse Osmosis water would be ideal in this situation, however i would suggest that patience is the cheaper and more environmentally friendly option.
A bloom in an established tank indicates that there is a problem which has allowed a build-up of organic waste, usually in the substrate. This can be caused by excess dead plant matter, over-feeding which leaves food lying around the tank, or leaving dead fish in the tank. None of these are desirable in an aquarium and a bloom in your established tank will certainly indicate one or more of these causes present in the tank. If you experience a bloom in an established tank, improve your husbandry.
 

kiefers

Active Member
Buttin in here, I started vodka dosing awhile back ago. Noticed a good deal of things going on with the corals and phosphates, never ammonia spikes but the clarity seemed to improve. I however dose twice a week rather than daily. (2ml. to be honest).Have an oversized and powerful skimmer that has well done it's job. Never really thouight or looked into the sugar/vinager dosing. To much right now
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
Just to get back to my original post. IMO I do not think a sudden stop in dosing will cause your tank to crash
Just little side note on my personal dosing experience. I could never get my nitrates below 20/40 mg/L . I decided to construct a custom refuge in which I would have a deep sand/mud bed and grow caulerpa. As a hedge in case my caulerpa caused a problem in my DT I started dosing. After about 4 months my nitrates dropped to undetectable. I must also say all of my caulerpa died off and I believe it was just because the bacteria spawned from the dosing out competed it for nutrients. Now the interesting part. I stopped dosing, wanting to see if my nitrates would again start to rise. All feeding and maintenance remained on the same pace. My nitrates have NOT at any time after I stopped dosing become detectable.
 

kiefers

Active Member
could that just be due to the refuge and deep sand/mud? I heard that the refuge can decrease the nitrate in the DT
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida joe http:///forum/thread/384499/issues-with-interrupting-vodka-system-comparison-vodka-biofuel-mb7/20#post_3368853
Yes it is possible. The refuge was also constructed with a plenum which also could have helped in the diffusive flow of water through the refuge
At the risk of taking this thread off topic may I ask you, briefly...how long was your system running before you started dosing, how long did you dose (the tank that is), and how long has it been since you stopped?
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
tank has been running for close to 10 years, dosed for over six months but less then a year, have not dosed for over eight months
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Excellent, thank you!
Wondering, if by chance an excess build up of organics over the years in the sand bed, rocks, deads spots or what have ya could have led to the uncrontrollable nutrient levels. And, thereby dosing over the course of 6+ monthes could have virtually cleaned out the system (so to speak) by breaking down these built up organics and thereby leaving you with a fresh clean system all over again (in a way) and thus allowing your current filtration to handle the load? Crazy thinking?
Maybe one of these strains of bacteria introduced by the dosing mutated then got a foot hold in the system and is somehow now living happy and free on nutrients in Joes tank? Ok, maybe that's too crazy.
Nike: Did you experience anything similar to this when you stopped?
Origional poster: Sorry for jacking your thread, man. I'm just currious about this whole dosing thing like you.
 

nikesb

Active Member
one thing i noticed was that phosphates could never really get above .05. thats up to now. I feel the best thing i did when i switched to dosing was using a mix of vinegar and vodka. i will try again in summer after i get automated
 

florida joe

Well-Known Member
I really don’t have a definitive answer as to why my nitrates are now at constant undetectable levels. Obviously I was cycling organics to the nitrate stage or I would not have been able to keep fish alive. My systems only way to deal with nitrates was through anaerobic bacteria and water changes. Those two methods were adequate enough to keep my nitrates at a constant 20/40 mg/L. the installation of my refuge which contained a deep sand/mud bed along with caulerpa now added a dimension of assimilation and dissimilation to the system. Enter a carbon source into the system and the combination of the three along with my existing live rock home for anaerobic bacteria and I have a very powerful tool for handling nitrates. My nitrate levels dropped to undetectable levels during my dosing but my caulerpa was dying off which I assumed was due to it being out competed for nitrates by the bacteria spawned by the carbon source. This die off was now dumping high levels of nitrates which was stored within the caulerpa back into the tank which in turn fuelled the bacteria from the carbon source. This may in fact have produced some form of bacteria that was not present with the relatively low levels of nitrates normally present. This new strain of bacteria may as Henry stated colonized on inside of my system and not being harvested need not a constant regeneration through the constant dosing. Another thought is simply my live stock being the reason. I believe most of my dinitrification takes place with in my substratum and not my live rock. This dinitrification can only take place through advection. Using crushed coral may or may not have added to the ease of this substratum becoming impacted. And this could have hindered the advection of water through the substratum. Now enter my population of tangs with their constant grazing of both rock AND substratum they could have in fact broken up the impacted top layer of crushed coral now allowing for better advection and proliferation of anaerobic bacteria
 
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