It's not the LFS fault

[crimzy]

I realize that it's so much easier to blame our LFS than to take responsibility for our own bad decisions. This is such an unoriginal response when people don't want to admit that they made a bad decision.
The LFS has no obligation to know the specifics about our systems and inhabitants. Even if they do know, often employees may be uninformed about certain species that they encounter. So, when they sell us some livestock and it was a bad decision by the customer, why should the LFS have any responsibility? They are not adopting children here, they are a business. I can buy a dog and make him live in a closet. I can buy a car without having a driver's license. So why, in this field, do we blame the business for our bad purchase?
BTW, when posters blame the LFS for their bad purchases, I generally don't believe them anyway. But it's easier to scapegoat the LFS than to admit that they wanted to try keeping a naso tang in a 20 gallon tank.
I really enjoy the LFS around me. They do not deserve the criticism that they get.

 

[grubsnaek]

Originally Posted by crimzy
They are not adopting children here, they are a business.

your rite they are a business. that make the difference between good business and bad business. the stores that sell fish no matter what are the one to avoid. i have a great store that i travel 15 miles to go to now cause ive been infected with ich, fin rott, half dead, by the LFS. it depends on the place.
i will controdict my self here by joining your side by saying yes you should do some research first. todays world there are far to many ways to become knowledgeable at things. people just think its fish how hard can it be, until there tank crashes 4-5 times. its not like they'll go build a garage cause they want one. meaning the non construction handy man. i almost left that open. hahaha theres alway three sides.
yours = they sold me a diseased fish
theres = customer didnt know anything about fish tanks.
and the truth = possibly got bullied by another fish, natural but never thought of just easier to point fingers.

 

[grubsnaek]

now that i re-read that, that sounded kinda good.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by crimzy
I realize that it's so much easier to blame our LFS than to take responsibility for our own bad decisions. This is such an unoriginal response when people don't want to admit that they made a bad decision.
The LFS has no obligation to know the specifics about our systems and inhabitants. Even if they do know, often employees may be uninformed about certain species that they encounter. So, when they sell us some livestock and it was a bad decision by the customer, why should the LFS have any responsibility? They are not adopting children here, they are a business. I can buy a dog and make him live in a closet. I can buy a car without having a driver's license. So why, in this field, do we blame the business for our bad purchase?
BTW, when posters blame the LFS for their bad purchases, I generally don't believe them anyway. But it's easier to scapegoat the LFS than to admit that they wanted to try keeping a naso tang in a 20 gallon tank.
I really enjoy the LFS around me. They do not deserve the criticism that they get.
As an automotive technician I have a responsibility to know what I am talking about when I suggest repairs to a customer. I can't tell someone that their car needs the transmission rebuilt "because I said so" and I expect that from any business. If I cannot trust them to know their field of expertise then I will go somewhere else. Do you trust your doctor? How about your vetrinarian? LFS have a responsibility of the welfare of the livestock they sell and to the customer that supports their business.
I guess I am saying that I disagree with you, but on the same hand one should get to know the hobby they are entering and also have a responsibilty to research before they buy. Asking the LFS for information counts, IMO. If I were sick I would seek the counsel of a physician. I would like to think he/she could be trusted to know what they are talking about. When I ask LFS employee a question I expect to be able to trust their answer.
Second opinions are a good idea.

 

[puffer32]

My hubby is a LFS. He does his best to find out about each customers setup, but he can't always stop customers from making bad purchases. If he asks to many questions they look at him like he is crazy to even ask, and they even some times argue with him when he tells them you can't put tangs and groupers in a nano, and buy them anyway. He will refuse to sell some things, and when he tests their water and tells them to how to fix the ammonia spike, then come back, they sometimes get mad, but oh well, at least he feels good about where his fish go.

 

[jmick]

Great post. I agree that it is generally the customers fault when they make uninformed/rash decisions that are made on impluse rather then research. When you walk in and "have" to have something with out ever knowing if your system can support it; these decisions are clearly on the customer and not the store. In this day and age, when you can jump on google and get an over abundance of info on just about anything puts the blame on the ignorant who are not willing to take the time to research and would rather blindly dump money into their tanks.
Also, there are good stores out there that get to know their customers and systems and will generally ask questions about your given setup and these are the stores we should try to support rather then the cheapo places like *****, that hire employees who know less about salt water setups then my 2 year old.

 

[grabbitt]

I agree with Jmick. If you're going to buy a fish, coral, invert, etc on impulse, it really is your own responsibility to back up what you're doing so it doesn't blow up in your face (...or your tank

).
While I have had a couple instances where I would like to blame my LFS for misinforming me on a couple purchases, I have also come to terms at a later time that I should have covered my own a$$ rather than depending on a 10$/hr employee to tell me what I want to hear.
If you're going to make a purchase at a place like *****, or any other general pet supply store, I would say this mentality should be increased tenfold.
When you ask an employee a question at a place like this, you may or may not discover that they can be the next Cesar Milan, but they don't know a thing about fish except that some need a can of Morton's poured into their tanks and some just take straight tap water

.
At the LFS, there should be more reliability that the employees on staff are a bit more educated on the specifics, but not to the point of complete dependence. If you want to play it safe, then the best method of all is always to GOOGLE IT. Or perhaps, stop by and ask the forum members of swf.com

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by socal57che
As an automotive technician I have a responsibility to know what I am talking about when I suggest repairs to a customer. I can't tell someone that their car needs the transmission rebuilt "because I said so" and I expect that from any business. If I cannot trust them to know their field of expertise then I will go somewhere else. Do you trust your doctor? How about your vetrinarian?
There is a huge difference between yourself, the dr., the vet and the LFS. The LFS is selling goods while the Dr., Vet and yourself are selling services. Of course we rely on the guy doing open heart surgery to know what he is talking about. However most LFS are employed by young, moderately knowledgeable, cheap labor.

 

[leftyblite]

There are some LFS that are really good and some that are really bad. Asking questions and looking at the tanks usually will help determine the good from the bad. It helps to be kowledgable about a certain fish that you are looking for BEFORE you go into an LFS. That way if they tell you something that you now for a fact is not true you can either call them on it or smile and leave. I've been to some LFS that are really good and some that have tried to tell me that 2 pacus would be happy in a 10G tank. The good LS will ask just enough questions to help you succeed.

 

[dmitry]

I don't see the similarity between a Fish Store and a car mechanic or a doctor.

To me they are such different entities that I just don't get it.
For most LFSs the overhead costs are extremely high, and their profits tend to be rather low. So for purely practical purposes they tend to employ young people with varying degrees of knowledge. If they were to hire only real experts - they would have to pay them much more. And chances are - they'd be out of business in no time. It'd be great if every LFS store had marine biologists working for them, but let's face it - it ain't gonna happen. When you go in to buy something you really need to know what you're buying and looking at or looking for. I used to work at Tower Records and people would come in and ask for things they knew nothing about and expect us to read their minds. And if a nun came in and decided to buy "The Rapture" (a soft core ---- flick) because she thought it was a religious epic - it's not my responsibility to police her purchases. How many times have we seen people post here with a photo of their new aquisition with the question: What is it? So many people jump on the LFS for selling that Moorish Idol to a guy with a 10 gallon tank. But really it's the fault of the customer. LFSs are business, as someone already pointed out, not Zoos or Aquariums. Their responsibilities are to provide goods to paying customers. One can only hope that customers know what the hell they're talking about.
Incidentally, all the LFS stores I've been to (chains and private) have books and reference guides for fish and corals. The least a customer can do it crack one of those books open in the store. LFS employees are not babysitters.

 

[aquaknight]

See that's where I draw the line. I believe something as absurd as okaying a Moorish Idol or Naso for a 10gal is ludicrous. Lets not forget this a hobby. Walk into a hobby shop for r/c cars or planes and try not to find someone at least somewhat knowledge. Yet they deal with same high overhead low profit scenarios but can find/train someone enough to be of assistance. I'm not saying they should be so strict you fill out a check list before any purchase, just the before event blows my mind.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by AquaKnight
See that's where I draw the line. I believe something as absurd as okaying a Moorish Idol or Naso for a 10gal is ludicrous. Lets not forget this a hobby. Walk into a hobby shop for r/c cars or planes and try not to find someone at least somewhat knowledge. Yet they deal with same high overhead low profit scenarios but can find/train someone enough to be of assistance. I'm not saying they should be so strict you fill out a check list before any purchase, just the before event blows my mind.
Isn't the idea of putting one of those fish into a 10 gallon as absurd if not more absurd then Ok'ing it? The owness is on the customer to be educated on his/her's purchases rather then on the LFS, who is there to make a $$. Grated, it would be piss poor advice but many do not care or have employees who care. Some kid who is making minimum wage usually isn't a very motivated individual and relying on them for proper advice is a risky if not foolish move.

 

[srfisher17]

I agree that lfs often get a bad rap. They have to compete with online stores that sell stuff for about the same price they buy it. Every other customer wants to put Little Nemo in a goldfish bowl. Most are run by folks who really know their stuff and are really dedicated to the hobby. But, they're human and make mistakes. At times, I think we often hear what we want to hear and see what we want to see; like a tang in a 10 gal tank. But this is a temp home, where the fish can be closely watched and not traumatized for an hour during capture. Almost always, the water system is 100's of gallons, flowing from tank to tank. The Petcos of the world, and I'm sure there are exceptions; are mass merchandisers with employees that have no idea of the complexities of this hobby.

 

[rainmkr07]

Originally Posted by crimzy
I really enjoy the LFS around me. They do not deserve the criticism that they get.
I think it depends on the LFS to be honest. I have been to bad ones already, who definitely deserve it, and I have been to good ones that don't.
I wouldn't excuse bad LFS's who sell Naso Tangs for 20g tanks for any reason. There should be a bare minimum knowledge in any LFS. We should all demand the best for the fish and corals we are so passionate about, and putting the blame on buyers over BAD LFS's is not the right approach. Enough of those bad LFS, and those bad sales, will greatly hurt the hobby we are so passionate about.
Criticism should be given wherever it is due. Letting ALL LFS off the hook is not the way to go. Letting the good ones off the hook, well that's ok in my book.

 

[rainmkr07]

Originally Posted by Jmick
Isn't the idea of putting one of those fish into a 10 gallon as absurd if not more absurd then Ok'ing it? The owness is on the customer to be educated on his/her's purchases rather then on the LFS, who is there to make a $$. Grated, it would be piss poor advice but many do not care or have employees who care. Some kid who is making minimum wage usually isn't a very motivated individual and relying on them for proper advice is a risky if not foolish move.
Jmick, imagine 50 LFS in each state, selling a tang to 1 customer every week for a 10G tank. Solely because they want to make $10 profit. That would be 50*50*4= 10,000 tangs a month. Whether the buyer should know better or not, actions by LFS like this could potentially devastate our hobby. So I just suggest caution on letting all LFS off the hook so easily.

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by rainmkr07
I think it depends on the LFS to be honest. I have been to bad ones already, who definitely deserve it, and I have been to good ones that don't.
I wouldn't excuse bad LFS's who sell Naso Tangs for 20g tanks for any reason. There should be a bare minimum knowledge in any LFS. We should all demand the best for the fish and corals we are so passionate about, and putting the blame on buyers over BAD LFS's is not the right approach. Enough of those bad LFS, and those bad sales, will greatly hurt the hobby we are so passionate about.
Criticism should be given wherever it is due. Letting ALL LFS off the hook is not the way to go. Letting the good ones off the hook, well that's ok in my book.

I agree with what you have said but what about cases where the good one's are very busy and don't have the time to question what size tank the fish are going in? Or they do and the buyer doesn't care for the given advice and does what they please?
I am lucky, in the Chicago Burbs we have some great shops with good owners/employees who care and take the time to get to know you and your setup. I will happily pay 10-20% more at these stores because I know I am getting amazing customer service and their livestock tends to be a lot healthier. I think it is important that we give the majority of our patronage to these stores and avoid the Petcos of the world.

 

[aquaknight]

Originally Posted by Jmick
Isn't the idea of putting one of those fish into a 10 gallon as absurd if not more absurd then Ok'ing it? The owness is on the customer to be educated on his/her's purchases rather then on the LFS, who is there to make a $$. Grated, it would be piss poor advice but many do not care or have employees who care. Some kid who is making minimum wage usually isn't a very motivated individual and relying on them for proper advice is a risky if not foolish move.
No, if the person who wants the 'pretty fish,' but knows nothing, yea, okaying it is worse. Like assault versus aggravated assault being worse. That car mechanic comparsion is actually spot on. People refuse to learn about cars, yet expect the repair shop to be full honest. What makes the uneducated consumer in each case different? The repair shop will be held to the law, but with the LFS, it's the comsumers fault for not knowing. IMO, you operating a car, and should know all about it, same for aquaria.
As far as owners/employees, that why I related hobby shops. The kids there make minium wage yet are able to grasp enough to be a some actual service. Which, IMO is a lot simiplier then just to be told, "good for fish small tank" "bad for small tank" "extremely bad fish for small do not sell."

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by rainmkr07
Jmick, imagine 50 LFS in each state, selling a tang to 1 customer every week for a 10G tank. Solely because they want to make $10 profit. That would be 50*50*4= 10,000 tangs a month. Whether the buyer should know better or not, actions by LFS like this could potentially devastate our hobby. So I just suggest caution on letting all LFS off the hook so easily.
I agree. Another stat to ponder is the overall mortality rate of all SW fish from the period of time they are taken from the oceans to our tanks...I'd be interested to know what it is...bet it'd be upwards of 60-70%. Wonder how many fish in a given year that'd be?

 

[rainmkr07]

Originally Posted by Jmick
I think it is important that we give the majority of our patronage to these stores and avoid the Petcos of the world.
Amen.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by Dmitry
Incidentally, all the LFS stores I've been to (chains and private) have books and reference guides for fish and corals. The least a customer can do it crack one of those books open in the store. LFS employees are not babysitters.
Good point about the books. I think that often, the zealous customer does "hear what he wants to hear". For instance the question, "Can I keep a small yellow tang in a 20 gallon tank?", Answer, "You could temporarily but it will eventually outgrow the tank." So many people buy the fish and claim that it was ok or even suggested by the LFS. A long, long, long time ago I worked in an LFS and this happened all the time.