It's not the LFS fault

[rudedog40]

I hear about LFS's getting the bad rap all the time. Customers complain they sell them 'defective' fish, and won't take them back or replace them. But in this situation, whose responsibility is it?
What's the rule of thumb for LFS purchases? If you see a fish you like, do you make sure the store has had it in their tank for at least a week or two before you commit to buying? Like another post says about LFS's, they're in it to make money. They aren't going to hold a fish for two weeks with no guarantee you'll come back to buy it. Not if someone walks in behind you looking for the same fish, and could care less if it got stressed out from a shipment. And I haven't found a store in my area that has a live guarantee. If it dies anytime after you leave the store, it's not their problem. They tell you they don't know how you acclimated, what you water params are, etc. Buying online gets you a guarantee, but it costs you $20 - $30 to get it shipped. That's the cost of buying a fish from a LFS.

 

[dmitry]

One of my main points is that it is not the responsibility of the LFS to find out what kind of tank you're going to be putting that Moorish Idol into. Or do you think customers should fill out applications when buying livestock, to assure complete compatibility. It will be like buying medicine from a drug-store: any strange combination would set off alarms. I think that's absurd. If you walk into a store asking for a fish - I think you should know what you're talking about. If you ask for advice, certainly you should get good advice. But it is not the responsibility of the LFS employee to start asking you 20 questions when you ask about a Moorish Idol. You are a responsible hobbyist when you don't impulse buy fish you don't know anything about. The responsibility of the store is to sell you healthy livestock. What you do with that livestock after you walk out is on your head.
As far as on-line stores: I purchased on-line once, from this store. And I will never do it again. My skunk shrimp arrived with a huge parasitic isopod attached to it. I sent them a photo and they insisted it was an air-bubble that would go away with a molting. Last time I checked air-bubbles didn't have green guts, like this growth did. I had to euthanize the shrimp and received no further communication from customer sevice. So, on-line retailers can be as sneaky and hard to deal with as any LFS, but at least at an LFS you can see the fish you're buying. And in most places if you pre-pay or at least leave a deposit, they will certainly hold the fish for you.

 

[dmitry]

Originally Posted by AquaKnight
No, if the person who wants the 'pretty fish,' but knows nothing, yea, okaying it is worse. Like assault versus aggravated assault being worse. That car mechanic comparsion is actually spot on. People refuse to learn about cars, yet expect the repair shop to be full honest. What makes the uneducated consumer in each case different? The repair shop will be held to the law, but with the LFS, it's the comsumers fault for not knowing. IMO, you operating a car, and should know all about it, same for aquaria.
By this comparison - if you buy a toy with led paint on it imported from China, it's your fault. I mean, if you're going to play with a toy you should know something about what goes into the making of this toy and what harms it can cause. Also, if you buy a pair of pants that are too long you shouldn't take it to be altered by a tailor, you should be able to do it yourself: if you're going to wear the pants, shouldn't you be able to fix them yourself? If your sink is leaking, don't call the plumber - learn how to fix it yourself. If you're going to be using that sink, know something about it. So on and so forth. I think this argument is absurd. Keeping fish is not like driving a car that the mechanic forgot to put the brakes on. The difference is that you're not paying the LFS to keep your tank in good health (unless you're hiring them to maintain your system.) You're paying them to sell you healthy fish. You do, however, pay a car mechanic to keep your car in good working condition. You do pay your doctor to cure you. You do pay your tailor to shorten your pants. Etc.

 

[crimzy]

I also would not buy livestock online (sorry swf). A healthy aquarium is a delicate balance, and IMO, new inhabintants must be the right species and size. Moreover, buying fish from the LFS allows me to examine the color, scales, eyes and watch the fish eat prior to buying. It also lets me see the fish with it's tankmates and assess the health of the other fish in the tank.
I did buy a fish online once. I bought a tess eel several years ago online. It was supposed to arrive within a week. After about 3 weeks and no eel, I cancelled the order, disputed the charge on my credit card and thought the matter was over. I then went out and bought an eel from the LFS. Well, about a month later, the tess was on my doorstep.

I didn't get charged for it but it was no longer a good fit in my tank.

 

[srfisher17]

Quite a discussion we're getting into! One thing, I don't think anyone has mentioned yet: THE LAWYERS!. Can you imagine a lfs refusing to sell a fish to someone because of the customers experience or tank size? Even if they wanted to eat it, how can a store, that is open to the public, refuse to sell a fish to anyone? There are many people on this site, with all good intentions, who try to decide who is qualified to have what; but this is just a forum--an exchange of ideas and experience. None of us have the right to force our opinions or values on anyone; although many would like to.(and that, sometimes, might not be a bad idea.) I'm not taking sides, but this is the Age of Litigation!

 

[jacha66]

Just don't trust ***** or petland. If you want advise seek it. If you want to be headstrong be headstrong and if you want a particular fish buy it, but do your homework first because if he kills everything in your tank you will be pissed. I will only buy fish from 2 lfs in my area New York because I know the people and trust their opinions especially after my tank crashed twice.

 

[ophiura]

Even if they wanted to eat it, how can a store, that is open to the public, refuse to sell a fish to anyone?

Easy, when I worked at an LFS we did it a lot. We had a guarantee, and if we believed that basically you were going to kill the fish and we would have to give you credit...no way would you get it. Heck, you couldn't buy seahorses or discus without a water test and lots of questions. My former boss once said about seahorses that he would rather keep them at the store forever and never sell on than to sell it knowing it will be dead just for the money.
And indeed, we rarely sold them.
One guy I remember wanted new fish "for the superbowl party" and he was also told to shop elsewhere.
I don't see why a store is obligated to sell anything to anyone. It is bad business, but I don't see why they have to do it.
I think there is a fine balance here. I think it is admirable and good marketing to have a staff that is honest and educated and asks questions. Because often you SAVE the customer some money, or heartache, and they realize that. So if I ran an LFS, I would have people who asked questions, gave advice, and gave a darn about what they are doing. I am not fond at all when I see stores where they go scoop out a panther grouper without a mention of "this gets real big, do you know that?"
There is a balance, IMO.
I think ultimately the responsibility DOES fall on the hobbyist, but I am all for LFS that take the time to ask the questions and don't sell everything to get the $$$ ASAP.

 

[srfisher17]

Originally Posted by ophiura
Easy, when I worked at an LFS we did it a lot. We had a guarantee, and if we believed that basically you were going to kill the fish and we would have to give you credit...no way would you get it. Heck, you couldn't buy seahorses or discus without a water test and lots of questions. My former boss once said about seahorses that he would rather keep them at the store forever and never sell on than to sell it knowing it will be dead just for the money.
And indeed, we rarely sold them.
One guy I remember wanted new fish "for the superbowl party" and he was also told to shop elsewhere.
I don't see why a store is obligated to sell anything to anyone. It is bad business, but I don't see why they have to do it.
I think there is a fine balance here. I think it is admirable and good marketing to have a staff that is honest and educated and asks questions. Because often you SAVE the customer some money, or heartache, and they realize that. So if I ran an LFS, I would have people who asked questions, gave advice, and gave a darn about what they are doing. I am not fond at all when I see stores where they go scoop out a panther grouper without a mention of "this gets real big, do you know that?"
There is a balance, IMO.
I think ultimately the responsibility DOES fall on the hobbyist, but I am all for LFS that take the time to ask the questions and don't sell everything to get the $$$ ASAP.
I agree; but there will always be a difference of opinion as to where the balance is. The guarantee idea is a good defense; but I'll bet, from a strictly legal standpoint, a lfs would have a real hard time refusing to sell a fish; just because they thought the buyer unqualified. You don't need a permit to buy a fish. I can hear it now" You are discriminating against me because I don't have the money for a six foot tank". Don't almost all lfs sell feeder fish? Some folks think goldfish are the prettiest things on earth. Shouldn't that be stopped?

 

[jessica47421]

Originally Posted by socal57che
As an automotive technician I have a responsibility to know what I am talking about when I suggest repairs to a customer. I can't tell someone that their car needs the transmission rebuilt "because I said so" and I expect that from any business. If I cannot trust them to know their field of expertise then I will go somewhere else. Do you trust your doctor? How about your vetrinarian? LFS have a responsibility of the welfare of the livestock they sell and to the customer that supports their business.
I guess I am saying that I disagree with you, but on the same hand one should get to know the hobby they are entering and also have a responsibilty to research before they buy. Asking the LFS for information counts, IMO. If I were sick I would seek the counsel of a physician. I would like to think he/she could be trusted to know what they are talking about. When I ask LFS employee a question I expect to be able to trust their answer.
Second opinions are a good idea.
totally agree

 

[grubsnaek]

this thread took off since i went to work.
its funny every one is saying basically the same thing i said. by either reputation or experience the hobbiest will learn from trial and error on where to shop. i have one store that does ask question, know my set up, and no matter how busy they are each customer gets quality time. they have saved me money. they will tell me if there is a grey zone.
on the other had there are a couple of private owned shops that there tanks look terrible, fish are terrible, they have the owners 12 year old son working. things like that.
this is really an open ended convo cause everybody is diff. so every store is diff. some customers dont want to listen, some have questoins that dont get answered, some stores are helpful, some are not. theres alway good and bad with everything in life.
as i read some of these post i can see people tryin to push there opinions off as if there the answer. who's fault is it. depends on the situation!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanx

 

[usefulidiot213]

I pretty much go both ways here. I think that the LFS should know what they are doing, and give good advise. However, this is a hobby that requires a lot of knowledge about a lot of different things. I started about a year ago, and I still feel like I don't know what I am doing. The longer you do this. The more you realize don't know....

 

[grubsnaek]

you know more than you think

 

[grubsnaek]

just half to put this. i was just in the equip, DIY section. and a person was saying how they bought a grow light for there sump. the very last lines is what made me copy and paste it here. some people just dont care. heres the quote.
"I just purchased a light for my fuge. I really was worried I might not have enough room to mount a grow light under in my stand and still be able to access the fuge. It's a little bit of a tight fit. So I purchased a Coralife Aqua Mini light. I went with the 2x9w 6700k. I plan on cutting a piece of egg crate to fit over the tank and sit the mini light on that. Good idea?
If not, oh well, cause that's what I'm going to do...LOL!"
the last line kills it, cause if they did research they could of gotten one of those metel clap lights with the aluminum reflector and a spiral 100w replacement bulbs at 6500k for much cheaper. they did not do there research. now selling a fish to a customer like this could go either way. hell i want the fish either way, hell thats a quick sale, or no sale. who knows.
also with a light fixture. i really wouldnt trust plastic under a light like that. just too hot for me

 

[mrextc]

I can see where you guys are coming from. I agree that you should do the research, but some people would think that the store should have an idea...but that's not always true...sometimes it is the LFS fault giving bad advice. I can understand a High School kid earning minimum wage giving bad info, but i just got bad info from the store owner this past weekend.. First and last time i will visit there. They had cheap anenomes all under 20 watts of Actinic light...not sure why but i got it because the owner said it would do great since my little nano had 2.5x's the light that he had his on...He just wanted to make a buck...nonetheless, my anenome is looking sad and is probably on it's way to a visit down my toilet. LFS can be good and bad...i have had good experiences with some telling me not to buy stuff and others that would probably sell the aptaisia for $5 a stalk if you asked...just my opinion.

 

[grubsnaek]

Originally Posted by mrextc
i have had good experiences with some telling me not to buy stuff and others that would probably sell the aptaisia for $5 a stalk if you asked...just my opinion.

 

[dmitry]

Originally Posted by ophiura
I don't see why a store is obligated to sell anything to anyone. It is bad business, but I don't see why they have to do it.
I'm not a lawyer, but in this day and age of litigation (That coffee I bought was too hot! Those cigarettes I smoked gave me lung cancer!) refusing to sell anything to a customer holding the money and not cursing you out certainly opens you up to a lawsuit. The store may or may not win in the end, but the process would cost them money. I can claim you refused to sell me an item because I'm black, because I'm white, because I'm gay, because my hair is purple, because my face is tattooed. I'm sure there are laws on the books protecting customers from being rejected by stores for no good reason because discrimination does happen. If a store has items to sell, and a polite customer is willing to pay for the items, I'm not sure that a store can get away with showing the customer the door.

 

[socal57che]

Originally Posted by Dmitry
I'm not a lawyer, but in this day and age of litigation (That coffee I bought was too hot! Those cigarettes I smoked gave me lung cancer!) refusing to sell anything to a customer holding the money and not cursing you out certainly opens you up to a lawsuit. The store may or may not win in the end, but the process would cost them money. I can claim you refused to sell me an item because I'm black, because I'm white, because I'm gay, because my hair is purple, because my face is tattooed. I'm sure there are laws on the books protecting customers from being rejected by stores for no good reason because discrimination does happen. If a store has items to sell, and a polite customer is willing to pay for the items, I'm not sure that a store can get away with showing the customer the door.
Our shop turns away people that want "cheap" brake jobs all the time. I would much rather send someone away than install inferior parts or shortcut the work. Owner feels the same way.

 

[rudedog40]

Why did the lawyer angle come into this? Sounds like these guys have had experienced filing frivolous lawsuits before. Sue a business because they won't sell you something? Give me a break!! A store owner has every right to deny business to anyone he/she chooses. You ticked because a LFS won't sell you something? Leave and find another store! Pass the word around about his business ethics, and let other consumers decide for themselves. If you can sue for not selling, then why not for high prices? "I'm sueing you because I think you should sell me that Purple Tang for $10, not $90." Sounds like that idiot judge who tried sueing the cleaners for $57 million because they had a sign in their window that said 'Satisfaction Guaranteed". He's getting his now.

 

[srfisher17]

No, businesses do not have the right to do business with whoever they chose. That ended with the civil rights laws of the 60s and has evolved from there.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
No, businesses do not have the right to do business with whoever they chose. That ended with the civil rights laws of the 60s and has evolved from there.
This is partially inaccurate. A privately owned business CAN do business with whomever they choose, or refuse to do so, as long as their selection is not based on race, gender, national origin, disability, etc (a protected class).