Just came from LFS I have questions??

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by NanoMantis
http:///forum/post/2972722
Why do you not like using damsels?
Good sir, I do not buy the "its harmful to the damsels or creepy crawlies on the LR arguement" if that is your reasoning.
They are cycle fish. They are experimental fish. That is their niche in this hobby. Just like we all used to use danios in our freshwater systems.
(outside of species such as the azure or garibaldi which are actually good community fish).
There are very few hobbyists like you that attempt to argue their point about cycling with damsels.
I would like to say that I respect your opinion and move on...but quite frankly I just can't do that.
Damsels are animals...just like you and me.
Putting them in a tank full of ammonia is like putting you in a chamber full of mustard gas. But I suppose if that was your purpose in life and all you were good for, it would be okay, right?
What if she doesn't want a damsel and it survives the cycle?
Have you ever tried to get a damsel out of a tank...that's not something I would want to be doing.
Speaking from personal experience...during my very first saltwater cycle, the live rock in my tank that I didn't do water changes on lost some of the neat hitchhikers and I assume the microfuana, and other little goodies.
Oh sure, it isn't harmful to the damsels. They die or have their lives shortened from mere coincidence. Why don't you go ahead and throw in all your fish, it won't be harmful, right? Might as well get a few anemones as well, they're very hardy.

 

[blayz77]

not that i know a whole lot about all this stuff since im just starting out myself, but i read someone here said the brown algea was not good.
ive read in many posts and also from my lfs store that although you ultimatly do not want the brown algea in your tank, it is however a sign that your tank is ready or very near ready. and besides your clean up crew will assist in removing it, even if it will go away over time, thats the cuc's job after all.
my live rock was also "cured" so to speak was prolly sitting in the lfs for a few months before i bought it they didnt have much left. so my tank may have went through a very tiny cycles the first couple days but ive been testing my waters everyday and everything ahs been at 0
i started getting the brown algea into the second week and it got to the point where i could see a noticable difference in the acumilation from morning to night. and since my waters were always good i went to the next step with my cuc.
so as long as you got all the rocks you want or whats considered a good amount for whatever size tank you have and you got brown algea all over the place and your waters have been the same for a few weeks i think your set. i havent had any issues with my water so far.
my only advice would be is before you put you cuc in make sure your rocks are absolutley how you want them for a while lol. i only re aranged mine a couple times and i wish i did so a few more times cause i want to change them now since i have a couple low flow or near dead spots.

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by Blayz77
http:///forum/post/2972734
not that i know a whole lot about all this stuff since im just starting out myself, but i read someone here said the brown algea was not good.
ive read in many posts and also from my lfs store that although you ultimatly do not want the brown algea in your tank, it is however a sign that your tank is ready or very near ready. and besides your clean up crew will assist in removing it, even if it will go away over time, thats the cuc's job after all.
my live rock was also "cured" so to speak was prolly sitting in the lfs for a few months before i bought it they didnt have much left. so my tank may have went through a very tiny cycles the first couple days but ive been testing my waters everyday and everything ahs been at 0
i started getting the brown algea into the second week and it got to the point where i could see a noticable difference in the acumilation from morning to night. and since my waters were always good i went to the next step with my cuc.
so as long as you got all the rocks you want or whats considered a good amount for whatever size tank you have and you got brown algea all over the place and your waters have been the same for a few weeks i think your set. i havent had any issues with my water so far.
my only advice would be is before you put you cuc in make sure your rocks are absolutley how you want them for a while lol. i only re aranged mine a couple times and i wish i did so a few more times cause i want to change them now since i have a couple low flow or near dead spots.
Yes, the brown algae should not be considered good, but it is just a part of the cycle. If you have a lot, you should get the diatom eating...or sand stirring part of your cuc.
About the rocks...I have had my current tank for almost a year and have never liked the way my rocks look. I would change the layout at least once a month and never fully like it. I know have it how I want it...finally.

 

[nanomantis]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/2972727
There are very few hobbyists like you that attempt to argue their point about cycling with damsels.
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
Damsels are animals...just like you and me.
Ah yes, this arguement. But shall we contend to apply value to the life of different animals? Would one kill a tick, if it prevents your dog from becoming ill? It is an animal yes? The tick is behaving as nature intended, yes? Now what about this. Do you kill cockroaches if they are in your home? What about a wasp if it enters your house? Or a spider (Personally I hate spiders)? Do you set out mousetraps incase of a rodent invasion? Now, if you had to choose between the life of lets say a banana slug and your family pet?
Now, another arguement against this same point. It is very much the same arguement that the animal rights activists use against eating meat (and well I guess this is somewhat of an animal rights question, or atleast discussion at this point). Pigs are animals just like you and me, would you give up bacon or pork? What about hamburgers? And for christmas or thanksgiving, instead of the turkey or ham lets all just chew on some celery and carrots, right?.
Putting them in a tank full of ammonia is like putting you in a chamber full of mustard gas. But I suppose if that was your purpose in life and all you were good for, it would be okay, right?
I see your Reductio ad Absurdum, and I raise you one more logical arguement.
I would like to pose two facts about this hobby. One is that a good chunk of fishkeepers smoke cigarettes (it is strange, but true). Two is that a lot of fishkeepers have other animals: whether it be dogs, cats, or what not. How is this any different than an individual smoking around their other more terrestrial pets? If we assume second hand smoke is indeed as horrible as is often stated, should smokers be allowed to smoke around their pets?
What if she doesn't want a damsel and it survives the cycle?
Bring it to your LFS, all the ones I have delt with have had no problem doing that for me. Or you can always feed them to a lionfish/grouper/mantis shrimp if you have one.
Have you ever tried to get a damsel out of a tank...that's not something I would want to be doing.
In the context of this thread, where the individual has <20 lbs of LR it would not be difficult at all. If we were talking about lets say a 125 gallong tank stocked to the brim with LR I would not have recommended this course of action. I had to catch a yellow tang out of my 75, believe me that was bad enough.
Speaking from personal experience...during my very first saltwater cycle, the live rock in my tank that I didn't do water changes on lost some of the neat hitchhikers and I assume the microfuana, and other little goodies.
Yes, that is exactly what we, as hobbiests are doing. We are speaking From Experience. This is how we learn: through experimentation; through trial and error. Without this, the hobby would not advance. Now, since we are speaking from experience, each individual has different experiences. What works for one individual, lets say me, might not work for you. Its the nature of the beast.
Oh sure, it isn't harmful to the damsels. They die or have their lives shortened from mere coincidence.
Yes, yes it is. But I am not disputing that fact. Personally, if they die I let them rot in there for a few days before I get them out. All for the greater good.
Why don't you go ahead and throw in all your fish, it won't be harmful, right? Might as well get a few anemones as well, they're very hardy.
No, the difference is that damsels are hardy. Many if not most will normally pull through. Plus, and possibly more importantly is that they are inexpensive.

 

[blayz77]

personally id rather use one of those chemical bacterias to speed the proccess up rather then use live fish inexpensive or not. but thats just me

 

[nanomantis]

Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2972725
Realy? Please show me on a scientific chart where these vibrant fish are toss away, experimental, beings just meant for torture.
First off, many damsel species as you well know grow quite plain as they mature. Also do we have these types of scientific charts for any other experimental animal whether it is danios, monkeys, or lab rats? If so, I actually am very curious and would very much like to see one.
I don't recall their being a sub section of life that is meant for experimental purposes.
I believe it is closely related to the sub section which animals are bred into only to end up in our stomachs.
Damsels are one of the most intriguing fish. They are dominant, bold, and most certainly have a personality. They can be terrors or awesome fish in a Semi-aggressive set up.
I agree.
Some people have damsel only tanks.
Yes, they are normally nanos with only a pair of clownfish.
But in all seriousness, I would like to see an impressive one. Find me a tank which is devoted entirely to damsels; one that is
primarily
a damsel tank, not primarily a reef tank.

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by NanoMantis
http:///forum/post/2972736
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
Ah yes, this arguement. But shall we contend to apply value to the life of different animals? Would one kill a tick, if it prevents your dog from becoming ill? It is an animal yes? The tick is behaving as nature intended, yes? Now what about this. Do you kill cockroaches if they are in your home? What about a wasp if it enters your house? Or a spider (Personally I hate spiders)? Do you set out mousetraps incase of a rodent invasion? Now, if you had to choose between the life of lets say a banana slug and your family pet?
Now, another arguement against this same point. It is very much the same arguement that the animal rights activists use against eating meat (and well I guess this is somewhat of an animal rights question, or atleast discussion at this point). Pigs are animals just like you and me, would you give up bacon or pork? What about hamburgers? And for christmas or thanksgiving, instead of the turkey or ham lets all just chew on some celery and carrots, right?.
I see your Reductio ad Absurdum, and I raise you one more logical arguement.
I would like to pose two facts about this hobby. One is that a good chunk of fishkeepers smoke cigarettes (it is strange, but true). Two is that a lot of fishkeepers have other animals: whether it be dogs, cats, or what not. How is this any different than an individual smoking around their other more terrestrial pets? If we assume second hand smoke is indeed as horrible as is often stated, should smokers be allowed to smoke around their pets?
Bring it to your LFS, all the ones I have delt with have had no problem doing that for me. Or you can always feed them to a lionfish/grouper/mantis shrimp if you have one.
In the context of this thread, where the individual has <20 lbs of LR it would not be difficult at all. If we were talking about lets say a 125 gallong tank stocked to the brim with LR I would not have recommended this course of action. I had to catch a yellow tang out of my 75, believe me that was bad enough.
Yes, that is exactly what we, as hobbiests are doing. We are speaking From Experience. This is how we learn: through experimentation; through trial and error. Without this, the hobby would not advance. Now, since we are speaking from experience, each individual has different experiences. What works for one individual, lets say me, might not work for you. Its the nature of the beast.
Yes, yes it is. But I am not disputing that fact. Personally, if they die I let them rot in there for a few days before I get them out. All for the greater good.
No, the difference is that damsels are hardy. Many if not most will normally pull through. Plus, and possibly more importantly is that they are inexpensive.
The tick argument, that was good. But my friend, you don't buy ticks and attach them to your leg just so you have a reason to kill them.
Why would you buy a live fish to produce ammonia...
ANYTHING organic that isn't harmful to a tank will produce ammonia. Ie...flake food and grociery shrimp, even pure ammonia in a bottle. Why risk the life of an animal to do a task that can be accomplished by an animal already dead or a cheap product that is not made from something that once lived? Yeah, damsels are cheap...but grociery store shrimp are cheaper.
Sure experimentation is a necessary part of this hobby, but why would we repeat these experiments over and over? The results are not going to change my friend. That's why research is more important than experimentation in this hobby. Now if you disagree with this point, then what shred of respect I had left for you is totally gone.
Smoking around a dog, while probably not the nicest of actions, isn't comparable. The dog will not die and his life certainly will not be shortened significantly by it. Unless of course you exhale the smoke right into the poor mutts lungs.
Sure we learn from experimentation...but that is not how we learn most things.
Do you think that cycling with a damsel will work better than using shrimp? I see not one pro to doing this. not one.
I bet at least 9/10ths of the hobbyists on this forum would back me up on this.

 

[pezenfuego]

It's 3:30 here. Nothing that you can do or say is going to change my opinions (based on logical reasoning).
You have had plenty of time to come up with a response and quite frankly I am finished waiting for it. You can call it me giving up, you can call it whatever you want. I need sleep now. Good night...may your fish survive your deathtrap another day.

 

[nanomantis]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/2972740
I bet at least 9/10ths of the hobbyists on this forum would back me up on this.
Aye, I believe you are correct. I cannot argue this one

The tick argument, that was good. But my friend, you don't buy ticks and attach them to your leg just so you have a reason to kill them.
No, but lets look at my arguement from a different light. What do you think about the idea of stores renting fish out for cycle? I have seen groupers, and large Scats both rented out to cycle large thanks. No one wants to kill them. Only to preform their duty.
Why would you buy a live fish to produce ammonia...
ANYTHING organic that isn't harmful to a tank will produce ammonia. Ie...flake food and grociery shrimp, even pure ammonia in a bottle. Why risk the life of an animal to do a task that can be accomplished by an animal already dead or a cheap product that is not made from something that once lived? Yeah, damsels are cheap...but grociery store shrimp are cheaper.
Let me answer your question with another question then. If one is setting up a fish only tank. They are not using LR or live sand. Where do the initial bacteria come from if not from on the cycle fish themselves?
Sure experimentation is a necessary part of this hobby, but why would we repeat these experiments over and over? The results are not going to change my friend. That's why research is more important than experimentation in this hobby. Now if you disagree with this point, then what shred of respect I had left for you is totally gone.
I imagine atleast 99% of people here will tell you not to put pomacanthus species angelfish in a reef tank. And yet, occasionally we hear of an individual who is beloved by the gods enough that he has managed to pull it off without loss or sacrifice. Why? Because he so desired to push the envelope. Imagine the people ranting and raving over how the angel will eat all his coral and clams!
I imagine a lot of "experimentation" really amounts to a lot of luck and at times igornace (maybe the individual with the angel in the reef tank did not know what he was doing, and yet just got lucky?) since well, that is where the miracle that is penecillin came from.
Smoking around a dog, while probably not the nicest of actions, isn't comparable. The dog will not die and his life certainly will not be shortened significantly by it. Unless of course you exhale the smoke right into the poor mutts lungs.
Then why has smoking been banned from all restaurants in Georgia? Second hand smoke. If its that bad for people, then you must imagine it is equally as bad for dogs?
Sure we learn from experimentation...but that is not how we learn most things.
If not through experimentation and observation, then how?
Do you think that cycling with a damsel will work better than using shrimp? I see not one pro to doing this. not one.
Again, I pose the question as to where the bacteria come from in a FO system.
For posterity, I believe that using some nice filthy live rock is the best solution of all. Without water changes of course
But for a FO tank, definetly damsels.

 

[nanomantis]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/2972742
It's 3:30 here. Nothing that you can do or say is going to change my opinions (based on logical reasoning).
You have had plenty of time to come up with a response and quite frankly I am finished waiting for it. You can call it me giving up, you can call it whatever you want. I need sleep now. Good night...may your fish survive your deathtrap another day.
Haha I think sleep sounds wonderful. I anxiously await your reply. I shall check tomorrow.
But come on now, deathtrap? Do not attack me for holding a different view than your own, I was content with arguing over our methods. Personally, I would rather sacrafice a couple of damsels to the fish-gods than have an ammonia spike later down the road from an insuffient cycle and lose some prized species or have a resulting disease outbreak due to the stress.
Also, if we cannot argue with logical reasoning, how can we argue? How can one convince another of the error in their ways (in general, not relating to this topic)?

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by NanoMantis
http:///forum/post/2972749
Aye, I believe you are correct. I cannot argue this one

No, but lets look at my arguement from a different light. What do you think about the idea of stores renting fish out for cycle? I have seen groupers, and large Scats both rented out to cycle large thanks. No one wants to kill them. Only to preform their duty.
Let me answer your question with another question then. If one is setting up a fish only tank. They are not using LR or live sand. Where do the initial bacteria come from if not from on the cycle fish themselves?
I imagine atleast 99% of people here will tell you not to put pomacanthus species angelfish in a reef tank. And yet, occasionally we hear of an individual who is beloved by the gods enough that he has managed to pull it off without loss or sacrifice. Why? Because he so desired to push the envelope. Imagine the people ranting and raving over how the angel will eat all his coral and clams!
I imagine a lot of "experimentation" really amounts to a lot of luck and at times igornace (maybe the individual with the angel in the reef tank did not know what he was doing, and yet just got lucky?) since well, that is where the miracle that is penecillin came from.
Then why has smoking been banned from all restaurants in Georgia? Second hand smoke. If its that bad for people, then you must imagine it is equally as bad for dogs?
If not through experimentation and observation, then how?
Again, I pose the question as to where the bacteria come from in a FO system.
For posterity, I believe that using some nice filthy live rock is the best solution of all. Without water changes of course
But for a FO tank, definetly damsels.
I just woke up after realizing that I forgot to take my medicine. I thought really fast before going back to bed, and since you are awake, I'd leave you one last reply.
First of all, the whole death trap thing was very immature. I'm sorry for that.
Now before I go further, let me clear one more small thing up.
Can I change your mind?-no
Is that what I'm trying to do?-no
Does your way work?-yes
Is your way the best way?-no
Do I care?-no
Do I love arguing about this-absolutely
Am I looking out for the best interest of the hobbyists-yes
Okay, now let me clear up one of the biggest parts of your argument. You are saying that with live rock, water changes will get rid of ammonia and thereby create a cycle with an amount of bacteria that is not adequate for a fish? no?
You are saying that by adding a fish, you can gaurantee that the amount of the bacteria can handle a fish after the cycle.
Ghost feeding. You pretend there are fish in the tank and you feed the tank, all the while doing the appropriate water changes (weekly or whatever you plan on doing down the road) and making sure ammonia doesn't get too high. What you plan on feeding the fish and the amounts, you feed the tank with. It will rot and produce the same amount of ammonia that the fish's waste would. That way, the only thing you are changing is that something is going to eat this food.
Now I have a question...how does a cycle fish give your tank bacteria? Instead of buying a fish...just buy some live sand or live rock from your lfs for crying out loud.
How did you know that smoking is bad for dogs? Did you set up a big confinement houses for dogs and periodically blow tobacco smoke into it and test the results of the dog's health? no, no you did not. You know that it is bad for them from research.
If not through experimentation and observation, then how?
RESEARCH!!! Learn from other's mistakes instead of making your own.
Okay, back to bed. Now I can't wait for your reply tomorrow lol.

 

[jackri]

Originally Posted by PEZenfuego
http:///forum/post/2972757
Can I change your mind?-no
Is that what I'm trying to do?-no
Does your way work?-yes
Is your way the best way?-no
Do I care?-no
Do I love arguing about this-absolutely
Am I looking out for the best interest of the hobbyists-yes
+1 on that.
Damsels can be a big mistake in this hobby imo

-- unless you really want them. If you don't they can be impossible to get out of 100lbs of LR without totally tearing down your tank.
Whats wrong with buying a puppy for christmas (damsel to cycle) and killing it by new years if it poops(to cycle a tank cuz it poops)? Oh yeah, something YOU bought with the understanding YOU would provide care for it. My .02

 

[lessthanlethal]

What kind of sand and how much do you have? What kind of salt? What test kit? The answers to this will help us find out why your PH is low. What are you using to measure SG? What is your SG now? Do not use a buffer yet.
The sand is 80lbs of live Ocean Direct™ Caribbean Live Sand
Sg is that Refractometer I have one or them. you guys have been up late lol

 

[lessthanlethal]

SG is 1.023

 

[pezenfuego]

Okay, what kind of salt and water are you using?

 

[lessthanlethal]

I dont want to cycle with Damsels. I just dont want to chase them around later. They are mean little fish. Can you add a CUC now? they poop dont they?

 

[lessthanlethal]

RO/DI and kent salt. PEZenfuego are you ok you had a long night you get enough sleep

 

[pezenfuego]

Originally Posted by lessthanlethal
http:///forum/post/2972858
I dont want to cycle with Damsels. I just dont want to chase them around later. They are mean little fish. Can you add a CUC now? they poop dont they?
I would wait to add a cuc. There probably is little for them to eat. I personally don't add my whole cuc all at once. I add what I need when I need it. For example, once I get diatoms, I'll add some sand stirrers, after fish, I'll add some carnivorous snails and a cleaner shrimp. You can do it however you want, but I don't recommend getting a cuc now.
Originally Posted by lessthanlethal
http:///forum/post/2972880
RO/DI and kent salt. PEZenfuego are you ok you had a long night you get enough sleep

Okay, I was afraid maybe you were getting low pH from the water. What type of test kit? Did you get it double checked with the lfs?
Yeah, I got enough sleep I suppose lol.

 

[lessthanlethal]

I never had my LFS check my water just me. I have API marine test kit. I can do some traveling and go to good fish store to test the water. The brown algae is not enough but every day I have more and more.

 

[blayz77]

my lfs uses the api basic test set too and also check the salt with the refractometer. when they test your ph it will always be low. the only good thing about having them check you water is that at least you can prove to them that your waters are good. and if you buy a fish there and somethign happens it may be more likley they will work with you in an exhange or something.
otherwise its kinda pointless unless you do not have the test kits to test on your own.