Just can't seem to get the Nitrates down

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Hogs
...mixed with some crushed coral that was already in the tank. ....
How dirty was the CC in the previous tank?

 

[sly]

I find it curious that as soon as crushed coral was mentioned, people started looking at it as the culprit.
Fact, this is a new tank (recently cycled)
Fact, there is no live rock in the tank
Fact, there is no deep sand bed to make up for the lack of live rock
Fact, there are no plants in the tank
Fact, water changes are too small to be effective
Yet crushed coral is automatically to blame? (even though the tank is mostly sand)

A 10 gallon water change is about a 14% change. Every time you change the water this way, you dilute the amount of nitrate being removed from the tank. Just for reason's sake... If you pull out 10 grams of nitrate during the first water change, you will pull out only, say, 6 grams the next change. Then you pull out only 3 the next change. This happens because when you do a small change like this and you fill it back up with clean water, you dilute the nitrate so that when you change out the water again, you are taking out a mixture of clean and dirty water. In effect, you are diluting the amount of nitrate that you can remove at each change. It's an exponential decline. The more small water changes you do, the less nitrate you will pull out of the tank each time you do it. You want to pull out almost all of the nitrate but you will never be able to do it if you keep doing these small "maintenance" water changes.
You need to do a BIG water change. Do at least 50% and then throw in some activated carbon and some nitrasorb pads. Get some live rock ASAP. You have nothing in your tank that will consume nitrate and so it will just keep accumulating. If you have NOTHING to consume the nitrate, then it will build up very fast... even with a few small damsels.
Keep your system clean. Clean out any pre-filter pads regularly and get a good cleanup crew if you don't have one. This will help to clean up any extra food or junk in your tank. Extra food decays into ammonia and nitrate. Don't worry about the crushed coral. It adds variety to your tank. You could take it all out and still be in the same situation you are in now...
Change your maintenance patterns and get your tank properly stocked ASAP. Also, ditch that test kit. I used those and found that the nitrate and ammonia kit were always off from the other kits.

 

[snaredrum]

Originally Posted by Sly
I find it curious that as soon as crushed coral was mentioned, people started looking at it as the culprit.
Fact, this is a new tank (recently cycled)
Fact, there is no live rock in the tank
Fact, there is no deep sand bed to make up for the lack of live rock
Fact, there are no plants in the tank
Fact, water changes are too small to be effective
Yet crushed coral is automatically to blame? (even though the tank is mostly sand)

A 10 gallon water change is about a 14% change. Every time you change the water this way, you dilute the amount of nitrate being removed from the tank. Just for reason's sake... If you pull out 10 grams of nitrate during the first water change, you will pull out only, say, 6 grams the next change. Then you pull out only 3 the next change. This happens because when you do a small change like this and you fill it back up with clean water, you dilute the nitrate so that when you change out the water again, you are taking out a mixture of clean and dirty water. In effect, you are diluting the amount of nitrate that you can remove at each change. It's an exponential decline. The more small water changes you do, the less nitrate you will pull out of the tank each time you do it. You want to pull out almost all of the nitrate but you will never be able to do it if you keep doing these small "maintenance" water changes.
You need to do a BIG water change. Do at least 50% and then throw in some activated carbon and some nitrasorb pads. Get some live rock ASAP. You have nothing in your tank that will consume nitrate and so it will just keep accumulating. If you have NOTHING to consume the nitrate, then it will build up very fast... even with a few small damsels.
Keep your system clean. Clean out any pre-filter pads regularly and get a good cleanup crew if you don't have one. This will help to clean up any extra food or junk in your tank. Extra food decays into ammonia and nitrate. Don't worry about the crushed coral. It adds variety to your tank. You could take it all out and still be in the same situation you are in now...
Change your maintenance patterns and get your tank properly stocked ASAP. Also, ditch that test kit. I used those and found that the nitrate and ammonia kit were always off from the other kits.

I would do ALL of the above and use RO/DI water. I have seen these little water filters work until their filter starts becoming a trate bed.

 

[hogs]

I have one Bio chem zorb in the filter right now. I just rinsed it in the old water that was in the filter before I dumped it. I cleaned all the sponges the same way. I do have carbon that I can add into the filter now. I better get a rubbermaid pail to change 35g. I just make 20g of water for a change tomorrow. I guess 20g is not enough.
Originally Posted by Sly
You need to do a BIG water change. Do at least 50% and then throw in some activated carbon and some nitrasorb pads. Get some live rock ASAP. You have nothing in your tank that will consume nitrate and so it will just keep accumulating. If you have NOTHING to consume the nitrate, then it will build up very fast... even with a few small damsels.
I should work on making a sump. I have an old 10g tanks that I think will be a good size.
Keep your system clean. Clean out any pre-filter pads regularly and get a good cleanup crew if you don't have one. This will help to clean up any extra food or junk in your tank. Extra food decays into ammonia and nitrate. Don't worry about the crushed coral. It adds variety to your tank. You could take it all out and still be in the same situation you are in now...

Should I set a up a QT for the live rock or just throw it in after an acclimation? Properly stocked? Does that mean LR and a clean up crew right now? I don't expect to fully stock it right with fish away.
Change your maintenance patterns and get your tank properly stocked ASAP.
Thanks!

 

[hogs]

Good question.

It was in there for years. Maybe when I mixed the LS with the CC, I stirred up and released all of the nitrates that were trapped in the CC. That could be a reason for the elevated nitrate levels.
I should have came here before I started this tank up again. I've come to the conclusion that I can't really trust what the LFS tells me. I have to try to make my own decisions based on research. Everybody here has been great in getting me educated. The LFS store in only interested in one thing and that's itself. Thanks again!
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
How dirty was the CC in the previous tank?

 

[sly]

If you can get live rock locally and get it in your tank quickly then I would go buy some and get it in your tank now. If you have to wait for it to be shipped to you then you will need to put it in quarantine to cure to prevent an ammonia spike.
You COULD put in uncured LR now but you will need to religiously monitor your levels and do some water changes during the duration of the curing process so that you don't harm your fish.
I would probably take the fish out and put them in the 10 gallon tank then stock your tank with LR. Let it cure and cycle properly and then when that's done, add the fish and the clean up crew. By putting the fish in the 10 gallon tank it will be easier to keep the levels down. Just do a water change as needed in the smaller tank to keep the fish safe while they are waiting on the big tank to cycle.
Just to make sure you don't have substrate problems, I would recommend a thorough vacuuming when you do your next water change.
When you put the fish back into the tank, then you can use the 10 gal tank as a refugium. Mangroves and cheatomorpha algae work VERY well at removing nitrate.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Hogs
Good question.

It was in there for years. Maybe when I mixed the LS with the CC, I stirred up and released all of the nitrates that were trapped in the CC. That could be a reason for the elevated nitrate levels....!
I think we have found the primary issue.
Your CC was already a Nitrate farm... you buried a lot of gunk in it. Do significant water changes. I'd also say you're going to have to remove and rinse the substrate. Don't do this all at once. Maybe do several sections over a couple of weeks.
Definitely need to get substrate clean BEFORE you add rock.

 

[azaintcold]

What kind of test kit are you using? If it is Red Sea, I used the same when in a master test kit, all the tests worked well except for the nitrate test. I had the LFS test my water, and it showed less than 10, when this test kit showed 100+. I bought a different kit and I actually had 5 nitrates.

 

[hogs]

It's the AFI kit.
Originally Posted by azaintcold
What kind of test kit are you using? If it is Red Sea, I used the same when in a master test kit, all the tests worked well except for the nitrate test. I had the LFS test my water, and it showed less than 10, when this test kit showed 100+. I bought a different kit and I actually had 5 nitrates.

 

[hogs]

OK. Rinse the LS and CC. How should that be done. Do I remove it from the tank and rinse with RO or the water that I make from my AFI tap water purifier? I assume not to rinse with tap water. I have 5g buckets that I can rinse them in. I guess I'll just take it out, put it into a bucket and swirl it around some. Can I rinse it with water change water that I pull out of the tank?
Thanks!
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I think we have found the primary issue.
Your CC was already a Nitrate farm... you buried a lot of gunk in it. Do significant water changes. I'd also say you're going to have to remove and rinse the substrate. Don't do this all at once. Maybe do several sections over a couple of weeks.
Definitely need to get substrate clean BEFORE you add rock.

 

[azaintcold]

It wouldn't hurt to go have your nitrates tested at your LFS. I would hate to see you go through all this trouble just because you got a bad batch of a test kit. Worst case scenario is they also test your water and agree you have high nitrates, and you can continue from there. IMO.

 

[kilhullen]

Originally Posted by azaintcold
What kind of test kit are you using? If it is Red Sea, I used the same when in a master test kit, all the tests worked well except for the nitrate test. I had the LFS test my water, and it showed less than 10, when this test kit showed 100+. I bought a different kit and I actually had 5 nitrates.

I have had recent issues with the Red Sea Master Kit too. For the same test - only mine comes out Brown, and not anywhere in the color spectrum at all. I tested 3 times and always got the same result.

 

[hogs]

Journey, I'm ready now. I need to know how to rinse the substrate. I'm going to put my fish in a QT and take out all the dead rock and then take out the live sand and crushed coral mix. How exactly do I rinse it? I will do a large water change after LS is put back.
Thanks,
Paul
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I think we have found the primary issue.
Your CC was already a Nitrate farm... you buried a lot of gunk in it. Do significant water changes. I'd also say you're going to have to remove and rinse the substrate. Don't do this all at once. Maybe do several sections over a couple of weeks.
Definitely need to get substrate clean BEFORE you add rock.

 

[garychef1]

Use SEACHEM PURIGEN !!! Works great

 

[hogs]

OK. But won't my substrate still be a nitrate farm?
Originally Posted by Garychef1
Use SEACHEM PURIGEN !!! Works great

 

[hogs]

I did a 45g water change from my 72g 2 days ago (about 2/3's). I also cleaned about 1/3 of my substrate and the nitrates are still over 160. I tested the nitrate level of my new water before I did the WC and it was @ zero. SG, amm, ph, water temp and nitrites all at perfect levels.
I guess I will try SEACHEM PURIGEN. It can't hurt. Are they any products out that will convert the nitrates to make less harmful like AMMO LOCK will.
I cleaned my canister filter and changed the BIO CHEM ZORB.
I'm also switching from a cannister to a wet dry filter tomorrow. That may help also.
Why can't I get my nitrate levels down?

Thanks,
Paul