Just Sand or Live Sand?

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by nietzsche
why is it that 3" is the danger zone? who tested this and why? what if you dont have anything that disturbs the sand? . ."
Friendly reminder, be sure to footnote quotes.
The issue with intermediate sand beds is that they are simply not deep enough and you get a Nitrate farm.
In order to have a healthy sand bed you need worms, pods, snails, etc. to keep the sand clean and turning over. These critters will disturb the top portion of sand. 4 inches is the suggested "safe" depth. 3 inches will produce anaerobic bacteria but is more likely to be disturbed.

 

[jtrzerocool]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
How deep is it?
it is about 2-2.5 inches

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by jtrzerocool
it is about 2-2.5 inches
Be sure you have plenty of flow to keep sediment from settling on it. Was it good quality live sand? Lot's of worms, pods, etc? These are crucial for a healthy sand bed.
Avoid sand "sifting" creatures as they will eat your beneficial microfauna.

 

[jtrzerocool]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Be sure you have plenty of flow to keep sediment from settling on it. Was it good quality live sand? Lot's of worms, pods, etc? These are crucial for a healthy sand bed.
Avoid sand "sifting" creatures as they will eat your beneficial microfauna.
i bought a sand that says that you dont need to wait for the cycle process! i also bought 51lbs of live rock from the LFS. i am in the process of cycling the tank now.i dont trust the non-cycling comment. i have a great powerhead and i also have a RIO 20HF which puts out 990gph on 4ft. i have seen debris gathering in one corner of the tank so i adjusted the powerhead accordingly. so there is nothing gathering on the sand now.i know this pic of the sand looks like CC but rest assured its not CC it is sand. so i dont belive that there is worms, or pods in the tank yet but i was thinking of seeding it with another piece of live rock from my other tank! how long should i wait to do this?
BTW it is a 55g with a 29G sump/fuge

 

[nietzsche]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Friendly reminder, be sure to footnote quotes.
The issue with intermediate sand beds is that they are simply not deep enough and you get a Nitrate farm.
In order to have a healthy sand bed you need worms, pods, snails, etc. to keep the sand clean and turning over. These critters will disturb the top portion of sand. 4 inches is the suggested "safe" depth. 3 inches will produce anaerobic bacteria but is more likely to be disturbed.

"Many theories and recommendations abound as to how best NNR can be achieved. We do know that good denitrification is less likely (but not impossible) to occur in shallow sand beds (less than 3”/7.5 cm), and with course sand. Some of the difficulties and criticisms of failed DSBs may be fairly attributed to such intermediate sand depths (1-3”/25-75mm) where the substrate was neither deep enough for efficient denitrification, nor shallow enough for thorough nitrifying activities . This condition is mitigated by the all too common lack of adequate water flow in some marine aquaria. Strong water flow is critical in most any marine aquarium. Aspire to provide at least 10 to 20 times the tank’s total volume per hour in water flow for your aquarium. The ocean is a dynamic environment! When nitrate control is your primary ambition, use deep fine beds of sand. Smaller aquaria (under 75 gallons) should employ at least 3” of media; larger aquaria will benefit from 6’ (15 cm) or more. "
okay it's either a yes or no that it will work, and this is coming from mr. calfo. who says to use at least 3" in an aquarium under 75 gallons.

 

[michael r]

Very interesting, but:
Denitrification will occur in any sand, as long as it's fine enough, correct?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by jtrzerocool
....i dont trust the non-cycling comment....
Very wise.

Seed from another tank during the cycle.
I'd also reccomend true "live" sand. Order some from here. You'll be amazed at what you get that establishes itself in your tank during the cycle (just do water changes to keep ammonia below 1ppm)

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by nietzsche
...
okay it's either a yes or no that it will work, and this is coming from mr. calfo. who says to use at least 3" in an aquarium under 75 gallons.
The deeper the better. Not sure what else I can tell ya. Will three inches of sand work as well as four? No. Calfo explains more fully in "Reef Invertebrates" that between being disturbed and the half life of sand that 3 inches will work but 4-6 is preferred.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Michael R
Very interesting, but:
Denitrification will occur in any sand, as long as it's fine enough, correct?
I'm not sure what "denitrification" means.
If it is referring to the breaking down of Nitrite then yes. Nitrate, no.
Ammonia and Nitrite fixing bacteria live in aerobic environments. Nitrate fixing bacteria lives in anaerobic places (deep sand bed, deep within crags of quality live rock, etc.).
If the environment has easy access to oxygen rich water then Nitrate fixing bacteria will not have any noticable presence.

 

[petjunkie]

Another factor in deep sand beds is the critters, I've read it's actually good to add sand from another reefer's established bed every year or so to get proper diversity to keep it live and working.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by petjunkie
Another factor in deep sand beds is the critters, I've read it's actually good to add sand from another reefer's established bed every year or so to get proper diversity to keep it live and working.
Yup, I've touched on that a couple of times.
A healthy sand bed is one where the top inch or two is brimming with life.

 

[nietzsche]

okay so 3" will work, but more is better, this sums up one of your replies, yes? so with this, is 3" still a "danger zone" if it works?
lol sorry, i just miss being in philosophy and ethics :[ not trying to make anyone look bad.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by nietzsche
okay so 3" will work, but more is better, this sums up one of your replies, yes? so with this, is 3" still a "danger zone" if it works?
lol sorry, i just miss being in philosophy and ethics :[ not trying to make anyone look bad.
Not too concerned about looking bad on this topic. I'm just sure if my explanations aren't well written or if you just aren't chossing to think about what I'm posting. Is there a magic phrase you want me to say?

Three inches is in the danger zone. Yes. Absolutely. No question. Why? Because that doesn't give you much a buffer. If a fish decides to burrow, or your pH drops and your sand begins to break down, or a powerhead blows some sand into the corner and it gets uneven, or you get some Nass. snails that like to burrow, etc. then you expose your anaerobic bacteria to oxygen and kill it.
So, at exactly what 1/10 of an inch does anaerobic bacteria thrive? No idea. All I know is that the deeper sand the better. I also have read many, many, many reports of failed sand beds suddenly releasing a lot of Nitrates. A common denominator of those tank crashes has been intermediate depth sand.

 

[nietzsche]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Not too concerned about looking bad on this topic. I'm just sure if my explanations aren't well written or if you just aren't chossing to think about what I'm posting. Is there a magic phrase you want me to say?

Three inches is in the danger zone. Yes. Absolutely. No question. Why? Because that doesn't give you much a buffer. If a fish decides to burrow, or your pH drops and your sand begins to break down, or a powerhead blows some sand into the corner and it gets uneven, or you get some Nass. snails that like to burrow, etc. then you expose your anaerobic bacteria to oxygen and kill it.
So, at exactly what 1/10 of an inch does anaerobic bacteria thrive? No idea. All I know is that the deeper sand the better. I also have read many, many, many reports of failed sand beds suddenly releasing a lot of Nitrates. A common denominator of those tank crashes has been intermediate depth sand.
whoaaa, okay.

So before you stated that 3" of sand is a "danger zone," perhaps you should have stated why it is a "danger zone." Why is it that 3" of sand is a "danger zone." Can 3" of sand be safe? Yes. Do certain things make it a "danger zone," yes. Can a so-called "danger zone" be avoided and still use 3" of sand? Yes. What happens that makes it dangerous????? Many of us are new to this forum and like clarity and explanations. Thank you goodbye.
I'm out.
Peace.

 

[michael r]

Sorry, when I asked my question regarding the sand, I meant rather any variety of sand will work, as long as it's fine and is 4 or more inches deep.
Let's say that I use silica sand - Will it work as a DSB just as well as aragonite?

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Michael R
Sorry, when I asked my question regarding the sand, I meant rather any variety of sand will work, as long as it's fine and is 4 or more inches deep.
Let's say that I use silica sand - Will it work as a DSB just as well as aragonite?
Np. We had a good chance to discuss deep sand beds and it made me dig out some books.
Silica sand has been used in other aquariums. There are some dangers in what else is in the sand, whether or not it is unhealthy for you, how fine it is, etc. It also will not break down and buffer your water like aragonite sand.
I would think bacteria would thrive in it, but not sure on that one.
As I said, do a search and see what you can find. I've never used it myself, but from what Ive read silicate sand has been linked to algae blooms.

 

[rabbit_72]

Ok, so I have a question...let's say you thought you had enough sand, but after reading this thread, you realize another bag or two is in order, can you add sand to an already existing tank without killing your friends on the inside?

 

[michaeltx]

yes you can add sand to the tank. you will want to use a PVC tube or something so that you can direct the sand onto the old sand and not create a sand storm also you do not want to add a lot of sand quickly and bury the micro fauna to deep that it dies.
as far as the DSB debate. Their are pros and cons of each here are the main ones that come to mind.
DSB of 4" or more
PROS it will help in nitrate reduction allowing oxygen sensitive bacteria to grow that will turn the nitrates into a gas. It gives a more natural enviroment for bacteria and microfauna to live in.
CONS it can get overloaded overtime and needs to be replaced or it can cause a crash
SSB 2" or so ot less.
Pros the entire bed can be utilized by the micro fauna, The buildup that is in the DSB isnt there so its not as bad,
cons It doesnt have the ability to turn the nitrates into a gas, it isnt as much of a natural setting for the bacterias that need a low oxygen enviroment to live.
Just my take on it there are a lot of other factors to it though but me personally will never have a DSB in any of my tanks for the crash factor of them. I have had a tank crash from it and it wasnt pretty. Since I switched to a SSB I havent had any problems.
Mike

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by MichaelTX
...
Just my take on it there are a lot of other factors to it though but me personally will never have a DSB in any of my tanks for the crash factor of them. I have had a tank crash from it and it wasnt pretty. Since I switched to a SSB I havent had any problems.
Mike
You big baby... you had one tank crash

I was leery too after I put mine in place in my 210 and then starting reading about "crashes".
I feel much better after moving the tank. Sand bed was over 18 months old and sand looked brand new when I moved it. That's why I tell everyone to research them. Just because it worked for me doesn't mean it is a silver bullet.
I stock lightly, skim heavily, have great water movement and a vast array of clean up critters.

 

[michaeltx]

LOL I have only had one tank crash from that. I have actually crashed 3 tanks over the years mainly when I was first starting out. and I nuked one of them because of hair algae was so bad it was the only thing I could do.
Mike