killer brittle star
- Thread starter legion
- Start date
rook
Member
How do you know the star ate the fish? Did the fish die first, or become ill first due to someother reason, and the star finished it off??
There could be many reason's the fish died, even if the star ate it afterwords. Are you sure that the star grabed the healthy fish out of the water and had lunch??
There could be many reason's the fish died, even if the star ate it afterwords. Are you sure that the star grabed the healthy fish out of the water and had lunch??
sammystingray
Active Member
Green brittle stars can trap and eat live fish. Whether it did in this case......of course I don't know.
bterry29
Member
I have been wondering the same thing. I had a oscellaris clown that got sick last week. When I couldn't find it I moved some LR and my brittle star had it in its clutches. I can understand that one because it was sick. However, the next morning I couldn't find my firefish. Later in the day I found it in the clutches of the brittle star. The firefish had shown no signs of being sick. About three weeks ago I lost a Kole Tang. It was missing one day and the next day was floating at the top. It had obviously been a partial meal for something in the tank. I had noticed a couple of days before it was missing that it would be lighter in color in the morning which worried me a bit. I posted about that and received a response that the lighter color was normal after the lights had been out. Other than that I noticed nothing wrong with the Tang. After reading your post I'm even more concerned that the brittle star could be attacking them during the night. Any additional thoughts?
rook
Member
Brittle and serpent stars have been known to eat fish, even healthy ones on occasion. Especially (as is told) the green brittle star.
My only concern to impress on people is to make sure the starfish is indeed the culpret, and that it was an unwarrented (although eating is never unwarrented) attack. By this I mean, if you never feed the brittle and there is no other food for the brittle, or the fish died or was dying for some other unrelated reason, then the brittle is warrented in eating the fish, IMO.
I just don't like to see automatic assumptions that the brittle killed a perfectly healthy fish for no good reason and thus needs to be dealt with.
If you do have a brittle that you are quite sure is doing this and you don't want to keep it, take it to a lfs or give it to another hobbiest.
My only concern to impress on people is to make sure the starfish is indeed the culpret, and that it was an unwarrented (although eating is never unwarrented) attack. By this I mean, if you never feed the brittle and there is no other food for the brittle, or the fish died or was dying for some other unrelated reason, then the brittle is warrented in eating the fish, IMO.
I just don't like to see automatic assumptions that the brittle killed a perfectly healthy fish for no good reason and thus needs to be dealt with.
If you do have a brittle that you are quite sure is doing this and you don't want to keep it, take it to a lfs or give it to another hobbiest.
ophiura
Active Member
Originally posted by Rook
My only concern to impress on people is to make sure the starfish is indeed the culpret, and that it was an unwarrented (although eating is never unwarrented) attack. By this I mean, if you never feed the brittle and there is no other food for the brittle, or the fish died or was dying for some other unrelated reason, then the brittle is warrented in eating the fish, IMO.
I just don't like to see automatic assumptions that the brittle killed a perfectly healthy fish for no good reason and thus needs to be dealt with.
Thank you, Rook. Your advice is right on the mark. Some general points:
Having a sick fish that is eaten, well, that is nature. Then assuming that another fish didn't get sick but that the brittle hunted, caught and ate it right after eating a clownfish? I don't doubt that it was trying to eat it, and maybe it just got lucky and caught the otherwise healthy firefish. But a Kole tang too?! I think it is wise to figure out what else is causing these problems, and not jump to the conclusion that it was the brittle. I mean, a Kole tang??? If it was tiny, perhaps. But I suspect there are other issues involved with so many fish dying in a short period, and I don't think the star is the problem. What are the tank parameters? How old is the tank? It is fine to overlook any other potential issues, it is a your tank your choice situation, but please return the brittle to the LFS if you are growing suspicious. I do not want it flushed as another hobbyist did last week.
The "born killer" type comments are not necessary. They are following instincts, and it is silly to assume that any animal will allow itself to starve simply because you spent good money on a fish. These animals are locked up in an all you can eat buffet. In the wild, the goal is to grow big and reproduce, and these guys do not know that they have lost the battle and should just passs up a meal. No animal is a 'born killer' if it is trying to survive. There is no 'right and wrong' in the food chain.
The green brittlestar is a known predator in the wild, and this is well documented on every reef board and all over the web. Other species may or may not be able to do this, however, there is no doubt that they will eat dead, weak or stressed animals, which is what they are put in a tank to do. Regardless, in this hobby, this is a bad attitude to have. These are wild animals, and there is always a risk that they may do something you don't want. That is part of the trials and tribulations of the hobby, and is a risk we must willingly accept.
Brittle and serpentstars should be kept fed with meaty foods, such as silversides, shrimp, squid...I prefer shrimp pellets, or even algae wafers now and then. My 5 brittlestars will not even finish off a dead snail very quickly (usually takes 3 days or so), let alone eat 2 days in a row. There are different personalities for all of them. Foods that tend to fall apart are not as efficient.
Please take these animals back to an LFS or find another hobbyist to take it, as Rook suggested, if you are suspicious of them.
BTW, what color are the brittlestars in question?
bterry29
Member
Thanks Ophiura for your response. I have no intention of flushing the brittle star. I think that is a very cruel thing to do.
My params have been very stable for several weeks -
PH=8.4
Ammonia=0
Nitrite=0
Nitrate=<10
Temp=79
so I did not have reason to suspect, or overlook, the params as the problem. Having found the two fish in the clutches of the star led me to question the brittle star.
The Kole was a small one and had shown no signs of any problems. The tank is 4 months old.
The brittle, which appears to me to be more brown than green, was one of the first inhabitants for my tank. I think I bought it in week 4. I have been reading this board almost every day since I bought the tank. I don't remember ever reading that they are put in tanks to eat sick, dying, or dead fish nor did the LFS tell me that. I believe I was told they would be good at keeping the substrate and rock clean.
One of the problems with email is you can't always tell the feeling/thoughts/attitude of the writer. You may have been referring to the original post as the bad attitude. I want to soak up as much about this hobby as I can because it has me so excited. I have read many of your responses and can tell you have great knowledge and passion for this hobby. I appreciate your response and am willing to accept the trials and tribulations of this hobby. I will keep asking and reading so I can learn what they are.
Thanks again and please keep sharing your experience with those of us who are newbies.
My params have been very stable for several weeks -
PH=8.4
Ammonia=0
Nitrite=0
Nitrate=<10
Temp=79
so I did not have reason to suspect, or overlook, the params as the problem. Having found the two fish in the clutches of the star led me to question the brittle star.
The Kole was a small one and had shown no signs of any problems. The tank is 4 months old.
The brittle, which appears to me to be more brown than green, was one of the first inhabitants for my tank. I think I bought it in week 4. I have been reading this board almost every day since I bought the tank. I don't remember ever reading that they are put in tanks to eat sick, dying, or dead fish nor did the LFS tell me that. I believe I was told they would be good at keeping the substrate and rock clean.
One of the problems with email is you can't always tell the feeling/thoughts/attitude of the writer. You may have been referring to the original post as the bad attitude. I want to soak up as much about this hobby as I can because it has me so excited. I have read many of your responses and can tell you have great knowledge and passion for this hobby. I appreciate your response and am willing to accept the trials and tribulations of this hobby. I will keep asking and reading so I can learn what they are.
Thanks again and please keep sharing your experience with those of us who are newbies.
ophiura
Active Member
Sorry, the "born killer" comment was in reference to the original post, however, this does end up being a generalization over time and it is unwarranted.
My concern is that many people overlook more serious issues at times like these. My senstivity is still on high after a recent thread in which the star was implicated, removed, and flushed, without any mention of tank parameters or desire to investigate other causes.
I believe I was told they would be good at keeping the substrate and rock clean.
They are put into the tank to scavenge, to pick up food etc off the substrate...whether it is food you add, in flake form, or food that comes about in a different way, like a dead fish. All of our clean up crew is added in order to prevent excess food from rotting away, and in so doing, prevent dead fish and other animals from sitting in the tank very long. This is a highly desirable characteristic of brittlestars, hermits, various snails, bristleworms, pods, and the like.
Brittlestars will clean up, but not clean any algae or things off the rock. They will eat left over bits of food, dead animals, and will be able to smell stressed or weak animals and catch them as well. One would hope to find a dead fish in the arms of the brittlestar. But we must ask questions. We have to be open to the idea that it was only doing what we expect them to do, and are not immediately the cause of the demise of the fish, as Rook pointed out. By doing this, one may overlook a more serious problem.
Furthermore, we have to avoid the tendancy to apply human motivations to things like brittlestars (this sometimes comes up in situations like this). It somewhat alludes to the idea of a 'born killer,' and the other recent and much more upsetting thread on this same issue.
They are not eating things out of spite, even if they are catching valuable fish. They are hungry, they are trying to be 'successful' in a biological sense, and they do not know that they lost this battle when they were collected. We have to be open to the pitfalls of keeping wild animals in a confined area, with things they would never encounter in the wild, and potentially in a situation where they are not exposed to their natural diet, or a regular schedule of food.
As for fish deaths, well unfortunately, we only test for a tiny fraction of the possible things in a tank that could lead to the death of animals. While it is entirely possible the brittle did catch and kill healthy fish, I tend to be suspicious of them catching a fish like a tang, or catching multiple fish in a short period of time. A series of fish deaths like this tends, IMO, to be indicative of another problem. Brittlestars are not venemous, and are not incredibly strong, which tends to limit the sort of fish they can successful kill.
It was normal for your tang to change colors at night, and become lighter. That may not have had anything to do with it. IMO, the tank is a bit young for a tang, and there may be other issues involved. We, unfortunately, are often not able to explain the majority of fish deaths in our tanks. If we could, if we could test for a wide range of parameters, or do postmortems on these fish, the hobby would benefit tremendously. But it is probably a long way off.
Indeed you are correct about the tone of emails, a subject that I have often brought up when threads get heated. It is virtually impossible to tell what people are trying to say without access to visual cues and their voice. This would be a nice chat or even debate over a beer, which is generally my attitude (except in the thread where the animal was, indeed, flushed with no apparent hesitation). I tend to be fairly long winded, but somewhat 'dry' in my writing style, and this can seem even more abrupt. I assure you that I meant nothing by it. I just tend to be a little light on my use of emoticons and such.
Rook, with you answer above, I think I can retire to some nice Caribbean island and leave it to ya! Definitely a great answer, and much more concise than I could ever hope to be
My concern is that many people overlook more serious issues at times like these. My senstivity is still on high after a recent thread in which the star was implicated, removed, and flushed, without any mention of tank parameters or desire to investigate other causes.
I believe I was told they would be good at keeping the substrate and rock clean.
They are put into the tank to scavenge, to pick up food etc off the substrate...whether it is food you add, in flake form, or food that comes about in a different way, like a dead fish. All of our clean up crew is added in order to prevent excess food from rotting away, and in so doing, prevent dead fish and other animals from sitting in the tank very long. This is a highly desirable characteristic of brittlestars, hermits, various snails, bristleworms, pods, and the like.
Brittlestars will clean up, but not clean any algae or things off the rock. They will eat left over bits of food, dead animals, and will be able to smell stressed or weak animals and catch them as well. One would hope to find a dead fish in the arms of the brittlestar. But we must ask questions. We have to be open to the idea that it was only doing what we expect them to do, and are not immediately the cause of the demise of the fish, as Rook pointed out. By doing this, one may overlook a more serious problem.
Furthermore, we have to avoid the tendancy to apply human motivations to things like brittlestars (this sometimes comes up in situations like this). It somewhat alludes to the idea of a 'born killer,' and the other recent and much more upsetting thread on this same issue.
They are not eating things out of spite, even if they are catching valuable fish. They are hungry, they are trying to be 'successful' in a biological sense, and they do not know that they lost this battle when they were collected. We have to be open to the pitfalls of keeping wild animals in a confined area, with things they would never encounter in the wild, and potentially in a situation where they are not exposed to their natural diet, or a regular schedule of food.
As for fish deaths, well unfortunately, we only test for a tiny fraction of the possible things in a tank that could lead to the death of animals. While it is entirely possible the brittle did catch and kill healthy fish, I tend to be suspicious of them catching a fish like a tang, or catching multiple fish in a short period of time. A series of fish deaths like this tends, IMO, to be indicative of another problem. Brittlestars are not venemous, and are not incredibly strong, which tends to limit the sort of fish they can successful kill.
It was normal for your tang to change colors at night, and become lighter. That may not have had anything to do with it. IMO, the tank is a bit young for a tang, and there may be other issues involved. We, unfortunately, are often not able to explain the majority of fish deaths in our tanks. If we could, if we could test for a wide range of parameters, or do postmortems on these fish, the hobby would benefit tremendously. But it is probably a long way off.
Indeed you are correct about the tone of emails, a subject that I have often brought up when threads get heated. It is virtually impossible to tell what people are trying to say without access to visual cues and their voice. This would be a nice chat or even debate over a beer, which is generally my attitude (except in the thread where the animal was, indeed, flushed with no apparent hesitation). I tend to be fairly long winded, but somewhat 'dry' in my writing style, and this can seem even more abrupt. I assure you that I meant nothing by it. I just tend to be a little light on my use of emoticons and such.
Rook, with you answer above, I think I can retire to some nice Caribbean island and leave it to ya!
Definitely a great answer, and much more concise than I could ever hope to be 