lets beat the stereotype!!!

[1journeyman]

Further, the continued attempt to compare freshwater overcrowding to SW overcrowding needs to be abolished as well. FW fish are much more apt to face environmental situations forcing them to be crowded. Marine fish never undergo the same environmental pressure. Further, trying to overstock a sw tank to keep aggression down means you are artificially stressing the fish to prevent them from behaving naturally. That, of course, is certainly not a recipe for a healthy tank.
It's not a question of Nitrates, or max filtration....

 

[crashbandicoot]

Originally Posted by ChrgerOnDavins
http:///forum/post/2506531
Oh geez, guys yeah okay so it's stupid, but if he/she can keep the nitrates down there is a chance.
We are dealing with live animals, not metals or magnets, compatibility may vary.
Ok a slim one, but I have hundreds of fish that DONT GET ALONG NO MATTER WHAT in 7 of my 7 aquariums, 5 of which have been set up 1-2 years, no losses.
Overstocking reduces aggression in many fish, turned my oscars in to big loveable teddybears, even my green terror who is sexually mature isn't bothering anybody. Anybody how knows freshwater can say WTF. I have many aquariums, and always a back-up... plus I work at my LFS so I can give away whatever I want to them. I realize saltwater fish are more difficult, intelligent, and complex, but everybody in this hobby ALWAYS thinks they know EVERYTHING. I don't care how long you've been in the hobby or if you have 150 tanks, you are NOT a credible source.
10 years ago, fishkeeping was TOTALLY different, and compatibility of fish has changed SUBSTANCIALLY over the last 10 years. Why would this be?
Because we NEVER really know what can get along with what, and in what circumstances, all fish are individuals.
I can tell you, however that I have NEVER met a nice clown trigger, who can be with anything but only the most aggressive fish, and I've probably met over 100. That is one "experiment" I won't try, but my Niger, Rectangulus trigger, Banana Wrasse, Lunar Wrasse, Hardwicki Wrasse, Maroon Clown Pair, Dogface Puffer, Spotted Sweetlips (yes I know shutup), Couple Damsels, Flame Hawk and Volitan Lion that make up my FOWLR tank is all worth a try. So far nastiest fish in there by far are the two triggers, but no damage to anybody, they stay on opposite sides of the tank, then when it's feeding time spend all their time chasing eachother while everybody else stuffs their face. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
Anyway, moral of the story is quit acting like you all are professional "compatibility experts". Nobody would ever think a fat guy like me who looks inbred would drive such a nice car that I do and have a skinny GORGEOUS brunette for 6 years and about to marry her either. THAT breaks compatibility rules. These are live animals we're comparing, not cars. They aren't all built the same.

Just keep this little idea in mind I think I read this somewhere "you are NOT a credible source. " Nobody cares about your weight your woman or your job either . You obviously have deep rooted issues with your self with the way you brag about what you have and how supirior it is .
If you dont like what the rest of us have to say then by all means please dont hesitate to go else where with your troll atittude. I am sure you can find a nice freshwater fish forum to rant and rave away on . but this is a salt water fish forum different ideas for different fish . Honestly you seam to be the kind of low life that most of us deal with when it comes to dealing with a lfs . You have very little clue if any at all about the fish you have, very unethical ideas and a willing to allow fish to suffer and to die .
I really dont understand how people like you can atempt to justify this kind of behavior let alone encourage it in other aquarists . Ticking time bomb is what it is . You can try to justify it any way you wish . But when it goes off the OP will hopefully understand what went wrong and not try it again .
Originally Posted by johnnyd
http:///forum/post/2506556

people always wine on here about whats right and wrong, how many fish you can have in what size tank!

if he has enough filtration and a skimmer nitrates will be fine. i have an over stocked 20g and have tons of filtration in it and a skimmer rated for 55g+ (aquaC remorea with maxijet 1200)
give the guys some slack, if a fish gets hurt put in a diff tank or the LFS THE END!

:
Gee there skippy why don't we put you in a prison cell with a 6'6" 300 pound murdering rapist . We will wait till he tears off a limb and causes you serious bodily damadge then to solve the problem we'll just put you in a different cell with a diferent 6'6" 300 pound murdering rapist and wait till you get attacked again and loose another apendage . But to justify it we will make sure you have plenty of fresh air pumped into your cell and a working toilet and plenty of toilet paper .

 

[mie]

This thread is starting to sound like the 9th grade.

 

[chrgerondavins]

Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2506920
You obviously have deep rooted issues with your self with the way you brag about what you have and how supirior it is .
.

Spell superior with me now, S-U-P-E-R-I-O-R Superior! Awesome !! GOOD JOB!
You're telling me about my attitude, yet you're calling me a troll? Your post was just as rude if not more rude than my own you're hilarious. Funny too how you imply that I am cocky, yet I called myself fat? Great logic sir.
Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2506920
Honestly you seam to be the kind of low life that most of us deal with when it comes to dealing with a lfs . You have very little clue if any at all about the fish you have, very unethical ideas and a willing to allow fish to suffer and to die .
.

I forgot, you're an expert. Sorry. Nobody said I was an expert or know or think I know what I'm doing, I work at a petstore that sells more than fish, I am by no means a saltwater expert (as I'm sure you've established because of your level of expertise)
Also, I very much like your "rapist" anology. Very nice. Comparing human life to that of a fish is hilarious. If he is in jail, as far as I'm concerned, I don't care what happens to him.
Also, let's point out that NOBODY in this hobby is humane, I don't care if you have a 6000 gallon tank with a single fish in it, it is NOT THE OCEAN and you're supporting the collection of live fish, which is 90% of the time not done humanely to begin with. To collect this fish and help support this practice by purchasing them and throwing them in your small tank, even if it is 75 gal, 100 gal, 500 gal, 6000 gal is still very inhumane, many of you are hypocrites. You say you are advocates for the fish, but really you took them from their life in paradise only to reduce them to ornaments and tools for your own enjoyment. Please don't act like we don't all cause the capture and usually mistreatment that these fish endure.
Here let me use your analogy. "So I was walking through town yesterday, and I spotted a beautiful little girl. Pretty and looked like she may be a cool addition to my house, so I went ahead and stole her. Her parents can't find her. She had a cute little outfit on, matched my basement. She has been crying constantly since I got her, hiding underneath the structure in her cage and calling for her mommy, she wants to go play on the playground, but I just gave her a swing in her cage. I built her a 200 sq ft. cage, where I fed her a varied diet and ensured she had enough oxygen to survive. I catch myself from time to time looking at her, and poking in her cage, enjoying her beauty. Sometimes I invite people over to look at her, I think I may have overstocked my cage, I'm going to upgrade to a bigger cage and put a little boy in there, maybe eventually I can sell little ones for enjoyment."
I am not condoning overstocking, or experimenting, or telling others to do it, I'm simply sick of rude comments to the people. Just be frank. Your fish are going to die IMHO. Cause at the end of the day, fact or not, it is still your opinion.
CrashBandicoot REEF Dr. no PHD, Marine Fish Whisperer, please... please, please jump off of your high horse.

 

[1journeyman]

Miltiple posts deleted.
Keep it civil please.

 

[chrgerondavins]

Comparing human life to that of a fish is hilarious and people do it here all the time to illustrate those overstocking or doing something "inhumane" and different with their fish, or something that is "not accepted". "Locked in jail with huge 6 foot 6 pyscho in small prison cell, etc. etc."
Let's point out that NOBODY in this hobby is humane, I don't care if you have a 6000 gallon tank with a single fish in it, it is NOT THE OCEAN and you're supporting the collection of live fish, which is 90% of the time not done humanely to begin with. To collect this fish and help support this practice by purchasing them and throwing them in your small tank, even if it is 75 gal, 100 gal, 500 gal, 6000 gal is still very inhumane, and a lot of you are hypocrites! You say you are advocates for the fish, but really you had them from their life in paradise only to reduce them to ornaments and tools for your own enjoyment. Please don't act like we don't all cause the capture and usually mistreatment that these fish endure, and for our own viewing pleasure.
The "Human" anologies I see used here often, flipped around sound like this.
"Well, I was at the mall yesterday, and I saw a little girl. She was very cute, had a pretty dress on that matched my basement. So I stole her. I bought her a 200 sq ft. cage, and put it in my basement. She hasn't stopped crying for her mommy, and she hides underneath the structure I have provided for her in my cage, she will be ok. To get her to eat, I am giving her candy. She wants to "play on the playground" so I just put a swing in her cage. I am providing a varied diet and lots of oxygen. I hope to someday introduce a boy so they can be a pair."
Do you see why this practice in general is wrong? So to a lesser degree, those of you "following the rules" you're still inhumane for owning these fish to an extent, so just because you're animal husbandy is "superior" you're not much better. I don't expect anyone to stop the hobby, it's awesome. Just have a deeper understanding of what's going on, and be more friendly and lenient with people. Lighten up.

 

[1journeyman]

Your post leaves out some truths...
Marine fish do live in the huge oceans of the world; However, many spend their entire lives in the same section of the reef. To therefore try to compare the size of an aquarium to the ocean is futile.
Marine fish need certain requirements to live long term and to grow into healthy adults. We're not talking about magical formulas here. The OP has incompatible fish in an overcrowded tank. That's not some arbitrary aquarist rule.
We know that stress can weaken and kill fish. We also know that certain species fo fish "snap" and kill their thankmates. We further know certain fish pick on and harass other species of fish.
I'm not really sure what your point is. The OP said he loves his fish. If that is the case it seems to me like everyone warning him about the coming bloodbath is doing him a favor.
Would the greater purpose be served if everyone said "wow, nice" and then waited for the update 6 months from now?
This is a discussion forum Chrger. Telling people to "lighten up" because they advocate more humane treatment than you personally won't get the discussion moving in any particular direction. That said, the whole "humane" topic is a straw man argument on this particular thread. It's not a question of humane, it's a question of compatability.

 

[chrgerondavins]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2507368
Your post leaves out some truths...
Marine fish do live in the huge oceans of the world; However, many spend their entire lives in the same section of the reef. To therefore try to compare the size of an aquarium to the ocean is futile.
Marine fish need certain requirements to live long term and to grow into healthy adults. We're not talking about magical formulas here. The OP has incompatible fish in an overcrowded tank. That's not some arbitrary aquarist rule.
We know that stress can weaken and kill fish. We also know that certain species fo fish "snap" and kill their thankmates. We further know certain fish pick on and harass other species of fish.
I'm not really sure what your point is. The OP said he loves his fish. If that is the case it seems to me like everyone warning him about the coming bloodbath is doing him a favor.
Would the greater purpose be served if everyone said "wow, nice" and then waited for the update 6 months from now?
This is a discussion forum Chrger. Telling people to "lighten up" because they advocate more humane treatment than you personally won't get the discussion moving in any particular direction. That said, the whole "humane" topic is a straw man argument on this particular thread. It's not a question of humane, it's a question of compatability.
Your point about fish living on the same reef brings me back to another point about overstocking, many reefs are extremely overstocked with fish, I've been and seen myself. Many more fish than our tanks show, in an area the same size. Sure, they behave differently in aquariums, but point still there.
And I'm not saying my example was anything less than stupid, just showing how stupid the comparisons are, you can't compare human life with fish life, that was my point, the story sounded so horrible, wheras capturing fish does not.
And no, I'm only proposing to inform in a polite manner, telling people they're stupid or they're "horrible people" isn't going to solve anything.
Also saying "know it alls" are very irritating, and nobody "knows it all" about this hobby.

 

[michaeltx]

ocean preditor you can not have the pros without the cons. that opens it up for people reading your post that there is nothing wrong because no one said any negatives.
Your tank may be fine now but will have problems later. When is your time frame for the upgrade to a 400 gallon tank. The problem with the thinking WHEN they get big I will upgrade is a bad idea by the time you start seeing the signs a new tank is in order you may not have the time before things get really bad to upgrade. IMO anyone that buys with the intent to upgrade is not got the best interest of the marine animals in mind. My thought is buy to fit the tank not but and then upgrade to match the fish. There are to many things in life that come up that will cause an upgrade to be back burnered untill its convenient to do so.
Originally Posted by ChrgerOnDavins
Also saying "know it alls" are very irritating, and nobody "knows it all" about this hobby.
there is a flaw in this statment there are many of the members here that followed the advice of someone that was out to sell them something. Most of the members here have learned through their own mistakes and lost a lot of money in the process. They dont want to see another hobbiest go down the wrong path and do the same thing. Are some people alittle overbearing at times yes but they have the best intentions of saving someone alot of headache.
There are a few things that stricks me when these threads come up and the debate gets heated is that in general the OP went by the advice of the LFS or someone else selling something and because everything is going fine for now its hard to beleive that its going to stay that way. In fact its the oposite. One instance is a huma huma trigger its a great tank mate for a while gets along with everyone else in the tank then out of no where start killing everything in the tank including fish larger than itself. When you start looking at compatibility it doesnt say anything about this aggression and one would never know unless someone else says "hey your in for a train wreck" wheiter or not it ever goes further thats up to the person that got the advice.
Is everything black and white nope there are changes in this hobby all the time. its up to the individuals to do their research and look at all aspects and make an informed dicesion. Its out responcibility to say there is a problem so they can research more on it.
Just my 2 cents.
Mike

 

[srfisher17]

I'll just stick to the Clown Trigger issue. These fish, while georgeous and personable, are notorious for changing their behavior. It isn't unusual fot them to go for a long time, even years; then go postal for no apparent reason. They can (and often will) literally destroy every living thing they can without warning. I really like these fish, but will only keep one in a species tank or with something that can defend itself. This is simply the nature of this fish's genes; nothing you do can change that fact.

 

[chrgerondavins]

Originally Posted by srfisher17
http:///forum/post/2507536
I'll just stick to the Clown Trigger issue. These fish, while georgeous and personable, are notorious for changing their behavior. It isn't unusual fot them to go for a long time, even years; then go postal for no apparent reason. They can (and often will) literally destroy every living thing they can without warning. I really like these fish, but will only keep one in a species tank or with something that can defend itself. This is simply the nature of this fish's genes; nothing you do can change that fact.
that I personally agree with, IMO this is NOT a fish to experiment with.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by ChrgerOnDavins
http:///forum/post/2507547
that I personally agree with, IMO this is NOT a fish to experiment with.
?????
That fish is in the tank we are talking about. That's why we're talking about compatability issues.

 

[crashbandicoot]

Originally Posted by ChrgerOnDavins
http:///forum/post/2506531
Oh geez, guys yeah okay so it's stupid, but if he/she can keep the nitrates down there is a chance.
We are dealing with live animals, not metals or magnets, compatibility may vary.
Ok a slim one, but I have hundreds of fish that DONT GET ALONG NO MATTER WHAT in 7 of my 7 aquariums, 5 of which have been set up 1-2 years, no losses.
Overstocking reduces aggression in many fish, turned my oscars in to big loveable teddybears, even my green terror who is sexually mature isn't bothering anybody. Anybody how knows freshwater can say WTF. I have many aquariums, and always a back-up... plus I work at my LFS so I can give away whatever I want to them. I realize saltwater fish are more difficult, intelligent, and complex, but everybody in this hobby ALWAYS thinks they know EVERYTHING. I don't care how long you've been in the hobby or if you have 150 tanks, you are NOT a credible source.
10 years ago, fishkeeping was TOTALLY different, and compatibility of fish has changed SUBSTANCIALLY over the last 10 years. Why would this be?
Because we NEVER really know what can get along with what, and in what circumstances, all fish are individuals.
I can tell you, however that I have NEVER met a nice clown trigger, who can be with anything but only the most aggressive fish, and I've probably met over 100. That is one "experiment" I won't try, but my Niger, Rectangulus trigger, Banana Wrasse, Lunar Wrasse, Hardwicki Wrasse, Maroon Clown Pair, Dogface Puffer, Spotted Sweetlips (yes I know shutup), Couple Damsels, Flame Hawk and Volitan Lion that make up my FOWLR tank is all worth a try. So far nastiest fish in there by far are the two triggers, but no damage to anybody, they stay on opposite sides of the tank, then when it's feeding time spend all their time chasing eachother while everybody else stuffs their face. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out.
Anyway, moral of the story is quit acting like you all are professional "compatibility experts". Nobody would ever think a fat guy like me who looks inbred would drive such a nice car that I do and have a skinny GORGEOUS brunette for 6 years and about to marry her either. THAT breaks compatibility rules. These are live animals we're comparing, not cars. They aren't all built the same.

Originally Posted by ChrgerOnDavins
http:///forum/post/2507547
that I personally agree with, IMO this is NOT a fish to experiment with.

Did I miss something ? Are you saying it ok to experement with tank mates for a clown trigger or are you saying its NOT ?

 

[au mister]

I just signed up today and I was wanting to know how I could post a thread. I do not see a way to do that.??

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by AU Mister
http:///forum/post/2507661
I just signed up today and I was wanting to know how I could post a thread. I do not see a way to do that.??
Top or bottom, where the reply button was for you to post this, you can click on "New thread" if you are not reading a particular thread.

 

[chrgerondavins]

Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2507654
Did I miss something ? Are you saying it ok to experement with tank mates for a clown trigger or are you saying its NOT ?

Are you unable to read? If you read my posts entirely it should be quite clear? It states that some fish can probably be compatible that a lot of people aren't aware of, but a clown trigger is not something I'd muck with.. I was pretty sure both my posts stated that or at least implied it.

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2507636
?????
That fish is in the tank we are talking about. That's why we're talking about compatability issues.
What? I know I am saying that I personally wouldn't experiment with that fish (Bolding and underlining the fact that particular experiment will probably not end well) And also implying that given the opportunity, I would not experiment with that fish.

 

[crashbandicoot]

Originally Posted by ChrgerOnDavins
http:///forum/post/2507759
Are you unable to read? If you read my posts entirely it should be quite clear? It states that some fish can probably be compatible that a lot of people aren't aware of, but a clown trigger is not something I'd muck with.. I was pretty sure both my posts stated that or at least implied it.

What? I know I am saying that I personally wouldn't experiment with that fish (Bolding and underlining the fact that particular experiment will probably not end well) And also implying that given the opportunity, I would not experiment with that fish.

Obviously I can read .Its making sence out of your back and forth on the issue that I don't get . Obviously I am not the only one that doesn't understand what your whole point is . You spoke about overstocking of aggresive fish helping to tame the aggresion and there was another post about filtration but at no point did you offer any opinions on other tank mates that might be ok with a clown trigger . you even deffended the idea of housing a clown with a lion fish and now your saying you wouldn't experement with that fish ?

But you will encourage somebody else to experement with it ?
I think the tag line under your name says it all (money waster)

 

[rad]

crash, you are just highlighting his major point: that people on here need to lighten up. everyone acts like marine biologists, dont get me wrong lots of people know lots of stuff on this website; sepulation probably being the one thats taught me the most. thats what keeps me coming back. but the thing I like about his style is he dosnt come off as an elitist jerk when he states something that he believes to be as fact. mean while you take the speak down to others tone. Its old, I realize there is good intention there, either that or a power trip, some good comes out of it sometimes, but most of the time it just turns people off.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by rad
http:///forum/post/2507970
crash, you are just highlighting his major point: that people on here need to lighten up. everyone acts like marine biologists, dont get me wrong lots of people know lots of stuff on this website; sepulation probably being the one thats taught me the most. thats what keeps me coming back. but the thing I like about his style is he dosnt come off as an elitist jerk when he states something that he believes to be as fact. mean while you take the speak down to others tone. Its old, I realize there is good intention there, either that or a power trip, some good comes out of it sometimes, but most of the time it just turns people off.
Sepulation is a Her.
The point is, as I said before, this is a discussion forum. Everyone has an equal right to post their opinion. Posting remarks insulting others for offering their opinion is where the problems usually occur. There is a right way and a lot of wrong ways to disagree with someone. Remarks like "you are not a credible source" tends to start a thread down the wrong way.

 

[chrgerondavins]

Originally Posted by Crashbandicoot
http:///forum/post/2507787
Obviously I can read .Its making sence out of your back and forth on the issue that I don't get . Obviously I am not the only one that doesn't understand what your whole point is . You spoke about overstocking of aggresive fish helping to tame the aggresion and there was another post about filtration but at no point did you offer any opinions on other tank mates that might be ok with a clown trigger . you even deffended the idea of housing a clown with a lion fish and now your saying you wouldn't experement with that fish ?

But you will encourage somebody else to experement with it ?
I think the tag line under your name says it all (money waster)
lol it was quite clear, I never directly said experiment with clown triggers and lionfish? Do you have dislexia or are you imagining these things? I was defending people as a whole, because you are NOT a marine biologist, nor is anyone on this board to my knowledge, but we all sure act like them!
And great line about "money waster".. See I thought I/We had established that I was a money waster, hence the post under my name? I don't see your pun? Or the point of an attempted insult to something I am so obviously aware of?
Please Marine Biologist CrashBandicoot, jump off of your high horse.
Oh and experiment has an I in it.