darthtang aw
Active Member
Some might call a Hannah Montana Concert Torture......
Let's talk waterboarding
- Thread starter darthtang aw
- Start date
darthtang aw
Active Member
Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/2475315
actually, I'm pretty sure that Berg was beheaded by Al Zarqawi that was killed when his safe house was bombed.
but to the original question, yeah, I have no problem with waterboarding or other forms of torture. not when these people have killed thousands of innocent Americans. we're not talking about torturing someone who jaywalked, we're talking about ruthless murderers.
now for the legality arguments of it. I know that we don't officially endorse torture because of, what, the Geneva Convention or something like that? well, I'm pretty sure that these terrorists didn't sign that treaty, so they shouldn't be protected under it, right? afterall, not only are they killing people outright, but they are torturing people as well, like the aforementioned Nick Berg.
You are correct it was used on an operative that gave up the info to where Zarqawi was hiding...if memory serves correct. I have to double check that.
http:///forum/post/2475315
actually, I'm pretty sure that Berg was beheaded by Al Zarqawi that was killed when his safe house was bombed.
but to the original question, yeah, I have no problem with waterboarding or other forms of torture. not when these people have killed thousands of innocent Americans. we're not talking about torturing someone who jaywalked, we're talking about ruthless murderers.
now for the legality arguments of it. I know that we don't officially endorse torture because of, what, the Geneva Convention or something like that? well, I'm pretty sure that these terrorists didn't sign that treaty, so they shouldn't be protected under it, right? afterall, not only are they killing people outright, but they are torturing people as well, like the aforementioned Nick Berg.
You are correct it was used on an operative that gave up the info to where Zarqawi was hiding...if memory serves correct. I have to double check that.
b bauer
Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/2475092
I thought I had an answer to this question until I started to type an answer... then stopped. Instead... I'll tell a story.
I once had a guy working for me named Chris. Chris was a staunch democrat. He hated that I would put on conservative talk radio in my car whenever we went to lunch. Once in the car the torture of suspected terrorists came up on the radio. He makes the comment... "tourture is never okay."
So I asked him "Okay Chris... imagine that your family... your parents, wife, brothers, children were kidnapped and held in a room with a time bomb. The police have someone in custody who they knew had knowledge of how to defuse it. Would you go so far as to torture the suspect to get save your families life?"
His reply : "No."
My response: "So you'd let your family die.... just so you could forego torturing"
His response, in a loud, angry voice "NO TORTURE!!!!"
I reluctantly dropped the subject, but have often wondered in practical application whether or not if he were actually IN that situation if his feelings would stay the same... ???
I also often wonder whether these people that are so against torture would feel the same way if they could directly correlate these suspected terrorists to the lives of people they love?
I love America. I love her like a family member. These terrorists are killing Americans.
I was in Iraq and if you asked me if to torture someone to save members of my unit who are family to me I would not do it.The mistreatment of prisoners just justifies they view of us and then I have more people that want to shoot me.To the people who say we have to protect Americans and our way of life and torture is ok and have quoted me here, have anyone been there (Iraq or Afghanistan I have been to both) or even been any military branch at all.I am technically disabled and now out and I will tell you when I was in and we would here civilians say we have to attack here or do this we laugh .To the people who say I have a brother, sister,of friend that is or was there they may tell you things but you can not understand them.sorry for the rant.scsnet you give very good info on all the saltwater topics and seam very level headed so I know you wont take this personally thats why I picked yours
http:///forum/post/2475092
I thought I had an answer to this question until I started to type an answer... then stopped. Instead... I'll tell a story.
I once had a guy working for me named Chris. Chris was a staunch democrat. He hated that I would put on conservative talk radio in my car whenever we went to lunch. Once in the car the torture of suspected terrorists came up on the radio. He makes the comment... "tourture is never okay."
So I asked him "Okay Chris... imagine that your family... your parents, wife, brothers, children were kidnapped and held in a room with a time bomb. The police have someone in custody who they knew had knowledge of how to defuse it. Would you go so far as to torture the suspect to get save your families life?"
His reply : "No."
My response: "So you'd let your family die.... just so you could forego torturing"
His response, in a loud, angry voice "NO TORTURE!!!!"
I reluctantly dropped the subject, but have often wondered in practical application whether or not if he were actually IN that situation if his feelings would stay the same... ???
I also often wonder whether these people that are so against torture would feel the same way if they could directly correlate these suspected terrorists to the lives of people they love?
I love America. I love her like a family member. These terrorists are killing Americans.
I was in Iraq and if you asked me if to torture someone to save members of my unit who are family to me I would not do it.The mistreatment of prisoners just justifies they view of us and then I have more people that want to shoot me.To the people who say we have to protect Americans and our way of life and torture is ok and have quoted me here, have anyone been there (Iraq or Afghanistan I have been to both) or even been any military branch at all.I am technically disabled and now out and I will tell you when I was in and we would here civilians say we have to attack here or do this we laugh .To the people who say I have a brother, sister,of friend that is or was there they may tell you things but you can not understand them.sorry for the rant.scsnet you give very good info on all the saltwater topics and seam very level headed so I know you wont take this personally thats why I picked yours
pontius
Active Member
Originally Posted by b bauer
http:///forum/post/2475675
To the people who say we have to protect Americans and our way of life and torture is ok and have quoted me here, have anyone been there (Iraq or Afghanistan I have been to both) or even been any military branch at all.
can you explain your argument on how your being in the military puts you in any better position than anyone else to argue whether torture should be used on a terror suspect?? because if you're going to throw that in people's faces, then I'll throw it right back at you. most of the 3000 people who died on 9/11 weren't in the military either, but that didn't stop them from being murdered. maybe if Zacharias Mussaoui had been tortured when he was arrested, 9/11 could have been prevented. the purpose of the torture is not to prevent soldiers from being shot at in a warzone, it's to get information to prevent further attacks on civilians and to find those still free who may be planning more attacks.
http:///forum/post/2475675
To the people who say we have to protect Americans and our way of life and torture is ok and have quoted me here, have anyone been there (Iraq or Afghanistan I have been to both) or even been any military branch at all.
can you explain your argument on how your being in the military puts you in any better position than anyone else to argue whether torture should be used on a terror suspect?? because if you're going to throw that in people's faces, then I'll throw it right back at you. most of the 3000 people who died on 9/11 weren't in the military either, but that didn't stop them from being murdered. maybe if Zacharias Mussaoui had been tortured when he was arrested, 9/11 could have been prevented. the purpose of the torture is not to prevent soldiers from being shot at in a warzone, it's to get information to prevent further attacks on civilians and to find those still free who may be planning more attacks.
b bauer
Member
Originally Posted by Pontius
http:///forum/post/2475698
can you explain your argument on how your being in the military puts you in any better position than anyone else to argue whether torture should be used on a terror suspect?? because if you're going to throw that in people's faces, then I'll throw it right back at you. most of the 3000 people who died on 9/11 weren't in the military either, but that didn't stop them from being murdered. maybe if Zacharias Mussaoui had been tortured when he was arrested, 9/11 could have been prevented. the purpose of the torture is not to prevent soldiers from being shot at in a warzone, it's to get information to prevent further attacks on civilians and to find those still free who may be planning more attacks.
torture only gives these people the excuse to tell others see we must stop them.When the US treated the sunnies with respect they our best ally.If we tortured every suspect we where given info on the whole country would be against us example we go out and pull in 10-15 suspects torture them find out they are not set them free then their whole clan is now are enemy how did that help.If you have seen persons body after they have been tortured you would not say its ok we saw them laying on the side of roads all the time ,and guess what we would get tips the next day saying who did it so it does not help them when they do it it helps us!
http:///forum/post/2475698
can you explain your argument on how your being in the military puts you in any better position than anyone else to argue whether torture should be used on a terror suspect?? because if you're going to throw that in people's faces, then I'll throw it right back at you. most of the 3000 people who died on 9/11 weren't in the military either, but that didn't stop them from being murdered. maybe if Zacharias Mussaoui had been tortured when he was arrested, 9/11 could have been prevented. the purpose of the torture is not to prevent soldiers from being shot at in a warzone, it's to get information to prevent further attacks on civilians and to find those still free who may be planning more attacks.
torture only gives these people the excuse to tell others see we must stop them.When the US treated the sunnies with respect they our best ally.If we tortured every suspect we where given info on the whole country would be against us example we go out and pull in 10-15 suspects torture them find out they are not set them free then their whole clan is now are enemy how did that help.If you have seen persons body after they have been tortured you would not say its ok we saw them laying on the side of roads all the time ,and guess what we would get tips the next day saying who did it so it does not help them when they do it it helps us!
pontius
Active Member
Originally Posted by b bauer
http:///forum/post/2475758
torture only gives these people the excuse to tell others see we must stop them.When the US treated the sunnies with respect they our best ally.If we tortured every suspect we where given info on the whole country would be against us example we go out and pull in 10-15 suspects torture them find out they are not set them free then their whole clan is now are enemy how did that help.If you have seen persons body after they have been tortured you would not say its ok we saw them laying on the side of roads all the time ,and guess what we would get tips the next day saying who did it so it does not help them when they do it it helps us!
there's the problem with your argument....we're not talking about rounding up 10-15 random 'suspects' and torturing them, we're talking about 4 specific cases. one of the 4 was KSM, which we already KNEW beyond any shadow of a doubt was the mastermind of 9/11. by torturing him, we were able to get a great amount of information as to how the attack was planned, who else was in on it, and Al Qaida's day to day functioning. so it was very well worth it. and the proof of that is that there has not been a terrorist attack in the US since, so obviously something in their organization was disrupted from it.
by talking about the time when the US "treated the sunnies with respect", I guess you are talking about the time that we turned a blind eye to them murdering their shiite neighbors en masse. but that's for another thread. but it shows that they themselves aren't above torture and murder. I'm no great military mind, but this whole war is proof that you can't expect to win a war outright if you aren't willing to use your enemies' tactics against them.
http:///forum/post/2475758
torture only gives these people the excuse to tell others see we must stop them.When the US treated the sunnies with respect they our best ally.If we tortured every suspect we where given info on the whole country would be against us example we go out and pull in 10-15 suspects torture them find out they are not set them free then their whole clan is now are enemy how did that help.If you have seen persons body after they have been tortured you would not say its ok we saw them laying on the side of roads all the time ,and guess what we would get tips the next day saying who did it so it does not help them when they do it it helps us!
there's the problem with your argument....we're not talking about rounding up 10-15 random 'suspects' and torturing them, we're talking about 4 specific cases. one of the 4 was KSM, which we already KNEW beyond any shadow of a doubt was the mastermind of 9/11. by torturing him, we were able to get a great amount of information as to how the attack was planned, who else was in on it, and Al Qaida's day to day functioning. so it was very well worth it. and the proof of that is that there has not been a terrorist attack in the US since, so obviously something in their organization was disrupted from it.
by talking about the time when the US "treated the sunnies with respect", I guess you are talking about the time that we turned a blind eye to them murdering their shiite neighbors en masse. but that's for another thread. but it shows that they themselves aren't above torture and murder. I'm no great military mind, but this whole war is proof that you can't expect to win a war outright if you aren't willing to use your enemies' tactics against them.
itom37
Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/2474330
So why are we making a huge deal about this topic when it is only these four that were waterboarded (the longest time was for 1.5 minutes) ?
The crossing of some lines is symbolic. I'd say torturing (which waterboarding absolutely is), is one such line.
http:///forum/post/2474330
So why are we making a huge deal about this topic when it is only these four that were waterboarded (the longest time was for 1.5 minutes) ?
The crossing of some lines is symbolic. I'd say torturing (which waterboarding absolutely is), is one such line.
quaffin1
New Member
I am not going to imply that I approve of
pulling fingernails out or electro shock to the genitals as
a normal procedure for interrogating prisoners, but....
As other have made the point, sometime extreme circumstances
call for extreme measures. Does this make us just like them?
Maybe is some way, this could be argued.
I would have to make a distinction between a captured soldier
from an enemies army, one that wears a uniform!! and terrorists
that run around looking like an average civilian, doing mayhem and
then running into a church or mosque to hide.
This is not a soldier that has rights to the Geneva Convention protocol.
I personally don't put the following into the same category as torture:
Causing intense fear (waterboarding)
Disrespecting an individual
Depriving one of his sleep.
Playing loud music that is annoying
None of these is normally considered as inflicting pain or physical harm to a person.
If it leaves a physical scare, then it probably is starting to become torture.
Mental scars are not my concern.
If a psycopath has kidnapped your 8 year old daughter/son and buried them alive
with only hours to live, and the police catch this guy. Would I resort to torture,
absolutely. In a situation as that, pulling fingernails out and genital removal would
only be the beginning of what I would personally do.
Just my opinion as a former Marine..
pulling fingernails out or electro shock to the genitals as
a normal procedure for interrogating prisoners, but....
As other have made the point, sometime extreme circumstances
call for extreme measures. Does this make us just like them?
Maybe is some way, this could be argued.
I would have to make a distinction between a captured soldier
from an enemies army, one that wears a uniform!! and terrorists
that run around looking like an average civilian, doing mayhem and
then running into a church or mosque to hide.
This is not a soldier that has rights to the Geneva Convention protocol.
I personally don't put the following into the same category as torture:
Causing intense fear (waterboarding)
Disrespecting an individual
Depriving one of his sleep.
Playing loud music that is annoying
None of these is normally considered as inflicting pain or physical harm to a person.
If it leaves a physical scare, then it probably is starting to become torture.
Mental scars are not my concern.
If a psycopath has kidnapped your 8 year old daughter/son and buried them alive
with only hours to live, and the police catch this guy. Would I resort to torture,
absolutely. In a situation as that, pulling fingernails out and genital removal would
only be the beginning of what I would personally do.
Just my opinion as a former Marine..
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by b bauer
http:///forum/post/2475675
I was in Iraq and if you asked me if to torture someone to save members of my unit who are family to me I would not do it.
As someone with a son serving in Iraq all I can say is I thank God your not there now.
http:///forum/post/2475675
I was in Iraq and if you asked me if to torture someone to save members of my unit who are family to me I would not do it.
As someone with a son serving in Iraq all I can say is I thank God your not there now.
bigarn
Active Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2475892
As someone with a son serving in Iraq all I can say is I thank God your not there now.
With all due respect and sincere thanks for your service b bauer, many people includeing myself would find that statement upsetting.
http:///forum/post/2475892
As someone with a son serving in Iraq all I can say is I thank God your not there now.
With all due respect and sincere thanks for your service b bauer, many people includeing myself would find that statement upsetting.
b bauer
Member
Originally Posted by reefraff
http:///forum/post/2475892
As someone with a son serving in Iraq all I can say is I thank God your not there now.
as someone who has been there ask him if he would do it.a vast majority would not.Just look at resent news that the military wants to shut down gitmo because of what it did for our perceived view to the rest of the world
http:///forum/post/2475892
As someone with a son serving in Iraq all I can say is I thank God your not there now.
as someone who has been there ask him if he would do it.a vast majority would not.Just look at resent news that the military wants to shut down gitmo because of what it did for our perceived view to the rest of the world
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by b bauer
http:///forum/post/2475758
torture only gives these people the excuse to tell others see we must stop them.When the US treated the sunnies with respect they our best ally.If we tortured every suspect we where given info on the whole country would be against us example we go out and pull in 10-15 suspects torture them find out they are not set them free then their whole clan is now are enemy how did that help.If you have seen persons body after they have been tortured you would not say its ok we saw them laying on the side of roads all the time ,and guess what we would get tips the next day saying who did it so it does not help them when they do it it helps us!
No one is suggesting using "forced interrogation" techniques on every prisoner.
Since 9-11 we've waterboarded four prisoners. All four for less than 2 minutes, and all four gave up valuable intel that saved soldier and civilian lives.
These animals don't need an excuse to hate us. We're different. We're American. That's all they need. Like I pointed out; they kill prisoners in the most cruel ways possible. To believe waterboarding somehow inflames then against us assumes they have a sense of morality that can be offended...
http:///forum/post/2475758
torture only gives these people the excuse to tell others see we must stop them.When the US treated the sunnies with respect they our best ally.If we tortured every suspect we where given info on the whole country would be against us example we go out and pull in 10-15 suspects torture them find out they are not set them free then their whole clan is now are enemy how did that help.If you have seen persons body after they have been tortured you would not say its ok we saw them laying on the side of roads all the time ,and guess what we would get tips the next day saying who did it so it does not help them when they do it it helps us!
No one is suggesting using "forced interrogation" techniques on every prisoner.
Since 9-11 we've waterboarded four prisoners. All four for less than 2 minutes, and all four gave up valuable intel that saved soldier and civilian lives.
These animals don't need an excuse to hate us. We're different. We're American. That's all they need. Like I pointed out; they kill prisoners in the most cruel ways possible. To believe waterboarding somehow inflames then against us assumes they have a sense of morality that can be offended...
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by itom37
http:///forum/post/2475789
The crossing of some lines is symbolic. I'd say torturing (which waterboarding absolutely is), is one such line.
Please explain:
*What are the immediate effects?
*What are the permanent effects?
Is slapping someone torture?
Keep them awake torture?
Making them listen to loud music torture?
Symbolic lines are great for stories like the Battle of the Alamo. In real life, however, they don't exist in black and white.
http:///forum/post/2475789
The crossing of some lines is symbolic. I'd say torturing (which waterboarding absolutely is), is one such line.
Please explain:
*What are the immediate effects?
*What are the permanent effects?
Is slapping someone torture?
Keep them awake torture?
Making them listen to loud music torture?
Symbolic lines are great for stories like the Battle of the Alamo. In real life, however, they don't exist in black and white.
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by b bauer
http:///forum/post/2475931
as someone who has been there ask him if he would do it.a vast majority would not.Just look at resent news that the military wants to shut down gitmo because of what it did for our perceived view to the rest of the world
Thanks for your service, btw.
Certain high ranking military want to shut it down for political reasons. I can't blame them for that. With certain members of Congress out there trying to try as criminals CIA agents who used "torture" I can see the military being nervous about running a camp that may someday be called illegal.
http:///forum/post/2475931
as someone who has been there ask him if he would do it.a vast majority would not.Just look at resent news that the military wants to shut down gitmo because of what it did for our perceived view to the rest of the world
Thanks for your service, btw.
Certain high ranking military want to shut it down for political reasons. I can't blame them for that. With certain members of Congress out there trying to try as criminals CIA agents who used "torture" I can see the military being nervous about running a camp that may someday be called illegal.
bigarn
Active Member
Originally Posted by b bauer
http:///forum/post/2475931
as someone who has been there ask him if he would do it.a vast majority would not.Just look at resent news that the military wants to shut down gitmo because of what it did for our perceived view to the rest of the world
But you said you wouldn't do it even if it meant saving your own "brothers lives". That's the hard part to digest for me.
http:///forum/post/2475931
as someone who has been there ask him if he would do it.a vast majority would not.Just look at resent news that the military wants to shut down gitmo because of what it did for our perceived view to the rest of the world
But you said you wouldn't do it even if it meant saving your own "brothers lives". That's the hard part to digest for me.
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by b bauer
http:///forum/post/2475931
as someone who has been there ask him if he would do it.a vast majority would not.Just look at resent news that the military wants to shut down gitmo because of what it did for our perceived view to the rest of the world
I don't have to ask. I have no doubt what he or any of the other current or ex military people I know would do. Remember the report about a Sargent who captured a member of a group ambushing our guys a few years ago? This man had information about the ambushes the Sargent needed to prevent his guys from getting hurt. Sargent fired his gun off behind the guy's head and after getting the information he needed he turned himself in. WHat do you think that Sargent would have done to get guys back who were facing sure death if nothing was done?
I find it difficult to understand how you could serve in Iraq and came away so blind as to the differences in our cultures.
You seem to be so worried about us torturing causing Sunnis to continue fighting us. Who were we "torturing" that led to the Sunni attack on our country on 911?
What part of the precious Geneva conventions allowed for an undeclared, un provoked attack on our country deliberatly targeting civilians?
What do the Geneva Conventions classify a person as who is found fighting in a war zone that is neither in uniform or serving under a countries flag? What protections and rights are they provided?
So you think Gitmo is a problem? Let me ask seeeing as how you were over there, where is the facility holding the US prisoners of war and how are they being treated?
http:///forum/post/2475931
as someone who has been there ask him if he would do it.a vast majority would not.Just look at resent news that the military wants to shut down gitmo because of what it did for our perceived view to the rest of the world
I don't have to ask. I have no doubt what he or any of the other current or ex military people I know would do. Remember the report about a Sargent who captured a member of a group ambushing our guys a few years ago? This man had information about the ambushes the Sargent needed to prevent his guys from getting hurt. Sargent fired his gun off behind the guy's head and after getting the information he needed he turned himself in. WHat do you think that Sargent would have done to get guys back who were facing sure death if nothing was done?
I find it difficult to understand how you could serve in Iraq and came away so blind as to the differences in our cultures.
You seem to be so worried about us torturing causing Sunnis to continue fighting us. Who were we "torturing" that led to the Sunni attack on our country on 911?
What part of the precious Geneva conventions allowed for an undeclared, un provoked attack on our country deliberatly targeting civilians?
What do the Geneva Conventions classify a person as who is found fighting in a war zone that is neither in uniform or serving under a countries flag? What protections and rights are they provided?
So you think Gitmo is a problem? Let me ask seeeing as how you were over there, where is the facility holding the US prisoners of war and how are they being treated?