live rock in sump?
- Thread starter nickp123
- Start date
nickp123
New Member
mainly because my nitrates have been off the charts for over a month and are not going down. from what I've read and been told bioballs are just a nitrate trap. am I being lied to? should I remove the sponges I have in the sump? any help would be appreciated I just want my tank back in order.
scsinet
Active Member
If you have 1-2lbs of LR per gallon in the main tank, I'd remove everything from the filter and just have a straight sump, then use your skimmer to remove wastes before they break down.
You aren't being lied to, but you are being misinformed. Bio-balls aren't really a nitrate trap as much as they are a nitrate factory. In a populated reef system with adequate amounts of substrate and LR, a full wet/dry filter or other biological system merely causes over-filtration and nitrates are produced too quickly. Ergo, swapping LR for your bio-balls will only cause the same problem to repeat itself.
You also need to be looking at the source of these nitrates. Start looking at:
Your feeding regimen
Your water change schedule and amount, etc.
Your flow (do you have any dead spots where detritus can build up?)
Your skimmer's efficiency and whether or not you run it 24x7...
Your cleaning regimen (are you cleaning your gravel? Do you have a decent detrivore crew?)
You aren't being lied to, but you are being misinformed. Bio-balls aren't really a nitrate trap as much as they are a nitrate factory. In a populated reef system with adequate amounts of substrate and LR, a full wet/dry filter or other biological system merely causes over-filtration and nitrates are produced too quickly. Ergo, swapping LR for your bio-balls will only cause the same problem to repeat itself.
You also need to be looking at the source of these nitrates. Start looking at:
Your feeding regimen
Your water change schedule and amount, etc.
Your flow (do you have any dead spots where detritus can build up?)
Your skimmer's efficiency and whether or not you run it 24x7...
Your cleaning regimen (are you cleaning your gravel? Do you have a decent detrivore crew?)
ctkecth
Member
Originally Posted by SCSInet
If you have 1-2lbs of LR per gallon in the main tank, I'd remove everything from the filter and just have a straight sump, then use your skimmer to remove wastes before they break down.
You aren't being lied to, but you are being misinformed. Bio-balls aren't really a nitrate trap as much as they are a nitrate factory. In a populated reef system with adequate amounts of substrate and LR, a full wet/dry filter or other biological system merely causes over-filtration and nitrates are produced too quickly. Ergo, swapping LR for your bio-balls will only cause the same problem to repeat itself.
You also need to be looking at the source of these nitrates. Start looking at:
Your feeding regimen
Your water change schedule and amount, etc.
Your flow (do you have any dead spots where detritus can build up?)
Your skimmer's efficiency and whether or not you run it 24x7...
Your cleaning regimen (are you cleaning your gravel? Do you have a decent detrivore crew?)
Let me jump on here- I have a populated 55 with a high nitrate problem as well. I have a skimmer which is doing its job, as well as a bio-wheel and live rock around fifty or so pounds. Do I need the bio-wheel. I do not have a heavily populated take- Yellow tang, 2 clowns, 2 reef chromis and a 6 line wrasse, and a peppermint shrimp. Snails and hermits as well.
If you have 1-2lbs of LR per gallon in the main tank, I'd remove everything from the filter and just have a straight sump, then use your skimmer to remove wastes before they break down.
You aren't being lied to, but you are being misinformed. Bio-balls aren't really a nitrate trap as much as they are a nitrate factory. In a populated reef system with adequate amounts of substrate and LR, a full wet/dry filter or other biological system merely causes over-filtration and nitrates are produced too quickly. Ergo, swapping LR for your bio-balls will only cause the same problem to repeat itself.
You also need to be looking at the source of these nitrates. Start looking at:
Your feeding regimen
Your water change schedule and amount, etc.
Your flow (do you have any dead spots where detritus can build up?)
Your skimmer's efficiency and whether or not you run it 24x7...
Your cleaning regimen (are you cleaning your gravel? Do you have a decent detrivore crew?)
Let me jump on here- I have a populated 55 with a high nitrate problem as well. I have a skimmer which is doing its job, as well as a bio-wheel and live rock around fifty or so pounds. Do I need the bio-wheel. I do not have a heavily populated take- Yellow tang, 2 clowns, 2 reef chromis and a 6 line wrasse, and a peppermint shrimp. Snails and hermits as well.
scsinet
Active Member
There are two main schools of thought when dealing with filtering a reef system. One is based on using a bilogical filter just like you would on any other tank. This filter can be a bio-wheel, a wet/dry, etc.
The other method is based upon the premise that your live rock provides enough of a breeding ground for nitrifying bacteria to handle the waste load of a reef tank on it's own. In this case, no real external biological filtration is used, rather, heavy skimming using a seriously oversized simmer is used, along with a heavy LR load on the order of 1-2lbs per gallon as well as calcerous substate to provide a huge surface area for bacteria to congregate. This method is known as the Berlin Method (as it was developed in Germany) and is gaining widespread acceptance in the trade. There are, however, those who do not agree with the theory. I agree with it.
In my 55 reef system, I run 75lbs of LR, a 3" deep sand bed of Aragonite that was seeded with Arag-Alive! and detritus from a LFS system. My filtration is nothing more than an overflow, a 20 gallon aquarium as a sump, and a Red Sea Berlin skimmer running 24x7.
I do a weekly 5 gallon water change and use only RO/DI water with Kent salt. My levels are always perfect, and I run a full bio-load (IMO I guess).
How you do things depends largely on your results. In both of your cases, if your nitrates are uncontrollable, ask yourself
Am I overfeeding? Too much leftover food quickly breaks down.
Is my skimmer working? If your skimmer doesn't pull the wastes quickly enough, they break down.
Are there dead flow spots where detritus can build up and break down?
Am I cleaning the gravel often enough to prevent detritus buildup?
Am I changing enough water?
Am I overfiltering? - If this is the case, you need to start removing your filtration by either removing bits of equipment or portions of bio-media at a time and see what happens. Remember, nitrates won't go down fast on their own, so accompany each change in equipment with a partial water change. Watch those Ammonia and Nitrite levels! If they start to rise, back off and take it more slowly. If you do it right, you should be able to find a good balance or remove your extra bio-filtration all together with no problem. Good luck!
The other method is based upon the premise that your live rock provides enough of a breeding ground for nitrifying bacteria to handle the waste load of a reef tank on it's own. In this case, no real external biological filtration is used, rather, heavy skimming using a seriously oversized simmer is used, along with a heavy LR load on the order of 1-2lbs per gallon as well as calcerous substate to provide a huge surface area for bacteria to congregate. This method is known as the Berlin Method (as it was developed in Germany) and is gaining widespread acceptance in the trade. There are, however, those who do not agree with the theory. I agree with it.
In my 55 reef system, I run 75lbs of LR, a 3" deep sand bed of Aragonite that was seeded with Arag-Alive! and detritus from a LFS system. My filtration is nothing more than an overflow, a 20 gallon aquarium as a sump, and a Red Sea Berlin skimmer running 24x7.
I do a weekly 5 gallon water change and use only RO/DI water with Kent salt. My levels are always perfect, and I run a full bio-load (IMO I guess).
How you do things depends largely on your results. In both of your cases, if your nitrates are uncontrollable, ask yourself
Am I overfeeding? Too much leftover food quickly breaks down.
Is my skimmer working? If your skimmer doesn't pull the wastes quickly enough, they break down.
Are there dead flow spots where detritus can build up and break down?
Am I cleaning the gravel often enough to prevent detritus buildup?
Am I changing enough water?
Am I overfiltering? - If this is the case, you need to start removing your filtration by either removing bits of equipment or portions of bio-media at a time and see what happens. Remember, nitrates won't go down fast on their own, so accompany each change in equipment with a partial water change. Watch those Ammonia and Nitrite levels! If they start to rise, back off and take it more slowly. If you do it right, you should be able to find a good balance or remove your extra bio-filtration all together with no problem. Good luck!
nickp123
New Member
I guess by that I'm overfiltering. This tank has been up for almost 2 years with no problems till I added the sump. I have plenty of water movement. As far as the skimmer I'm runnin an Aqua C Remora. I had been running a fluval 304 canister filter which was disconnected after the sump was set up. As far as my rock and sand I have basically the same amounts give or take a pound or two.
T
thomas712
Guest
Pros of bio balls.
First off, these little guys are great for starting a tank, they help tons in the cycle by breaking down the more toxic ammonia and nitrites into the less toxic nitrates and keep the oxyegen high.
Bio balls offer more surface area than an equal amount of a replacement item like liverock.
They have far more ability to oxygenate the water than liverock.
The more oxegen supplied to the process results in a faster reaction capability of the filter to change the breakdown process.
The amount of surface area contained in bio balls supports a far greater amount of nitrifying bacteria, The amount of nitrifying bacteria in any system is dependent on two factors here. The amount of food supplied and the amount of surface area available. Due to the round shape with the little spikes these little balls have much to offer in surface area.
With maintanance; to repeat; With maintanance these bio balls have a lot to offer any wet/dry sump application. They are not a bomb waiting to go off, they are not nitrate factories anymore than any other mechanical filter. Using a filter floss before the bio balls removes much of what people erouniously think of as to much maitanence with bio balls. Just change the filter floss weekly or bi weekly when ever needed.
Cons of bio balls.
The do tend to get dirty, therefore they will collect a certain amount of slime and junk on them. This leads to a nitrate buildup. In larger amounts the nitrates can lead to a problem, typically nitrates above say 30 ppm.
This initself is the cheif complant about them and the big con that everyone talks about.
One of the big reasons that people change or remove the bio balls is to go to a more natural type of filtration. The other is that they do not want to hassle with cleaning them.
Bio balls are not the only way to filter the water. Liverock will work in its place by upping the water level in the sump and using it much in the same way you would in the main tank. Others just replace them with liverock rubble and let the water splash over them, but in my opinion this is not as efficant as the bio balls. Also my opinion that if liverock rubble is used without raising the water level the rock itself will still get as dirty as any bioball and will need cleaning itself, but since I have not personally gone this route I can not speak from any experience on the liverock in the sump.
In the end it is the one who owns the system who must decide how or what method they will choose to filter the water. What ever the choice is the goal is the same, to achieve excellent water conditions.
Anyone with a reef tank or saltwater tank must have a method of removing nitrates. Some just feel safer without the bio balls
Hope that helps some, and I hope that I did justice to both sides.
Thomas
First off, these little guys are great for starting a tank, they help tons in the cycle by breaking down the more toxic ammonia and nitrites into the less toxic nitrates and keep the oxyegen high.
Bio balls offer more surface area than an equal amount of a replacement item like liverock.
They have far more ability to oxygenate the water than liverock.
The more oxegen supplied to the process results in a faster reaction capability of the filter to change the breakdown process.
The amount of surface area contained in bio balls supports a far greater amount of nitrifying bacteria, The amount of nitrifying bacteria in any system is dependent on two factors here. The amount of food supplied and the amount of surface area available. Due to the round shape with the little spikes these little balls have much to offer in surface area.
With maintanance; to repeat; With maintanance these bio balls have a lot to offer any wet/dry sump application. They are not a bomb waiting to go off, they are not nitrate factories anymore than any other mechanical filter. Using a filter floss before the bio balls removes much of what people erouniously think of as to much maitanence with bio balls. Just change the filter floss weekly or bi weekly when ever needed.
Cons of bio balls.
The do tend to get dirty, therefore they will collect a certain amount of slime and junk on them. This leads to a nitrate buildup. In larger amounts the nitrates can lead to a problem, typically nitrates above say 30 ppm.
This initself is the cheif complant about them and the big con that everyone talks about.
One of the big reasons that people change or remove the bio balls is to go to a more natural type of filtration. The other is that they do not want to hassle with cleaning them.
Bio balls are not the only way to filter the water. Liverock will work in its place by upping the water level in the sump and using it much in the same way you would in the main tank. Others just replace them with liverock rubble and let the water splash over them, but in my opinion this is not as efficant as the bio balls. Also my opinion that if liverock rubble is used without raising the water level the rock itself will still get as dirty as any bioball and will need cleaning itself, but since I have not personally gone this route I can not speak from any experience on the liverock in the sump.
In the end it is the one who owns the system who must decide how or what method they will choose to filter the water. What ever the choice is the goal is the same, to achieve excellent water conditions.
Anyone with a reef tank or saltwater tank must have a method of removing nitrates. Some just feel safer without the bio balls
Hope that helps some, and I hope that I did justice to both sides.
Thomas
scsinet
Active Member
In a traditional wet/dry setup, the media is located above the water line, and the water from the tank trickles over it. This allows aerobic bacteria to do their job. If your balls are below the water line, they aren't being that efficient anyway, so I think you will be okay to remove them.
Try taking them out, but be sure to take daily readings of the "big three," and make sure everything stays okay.
If I were you, I'd take a rubbermaid container, fill it with tank water, and put the media in there with a powerhead running. When you feed the tank, throw a little bit of food in there. That'll keep the media alive and viable in case you need to put it back in quickly.
If your readings stay normal for maybe a week, you should be good to go. If your nitrates don't drop, you need to start looking at the other stuff I mentioned.
Try taking them out, but be sure to take daily readings of the "big three," and make sure everything stays okay.
If I were you, I'd take a rubbermaid container, fill it with tank water, and put the media in there with a powerhead running. When you feed the tank, throw a little bit of food in there. That'll keep the media alive and viable in case you need to put it back in quickly.
If your readings stay normal for maybe a week, you should be good to go. If your nitrates don't drop, you need to start looking at the other stuff I mentioned.