Loins venom(how potent)
- Thread starter crabbie
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eelfreakrobi
Member
8-9 is pretty big, it can cause convulsions, paralysis and others. the best thing to do like sistr mary said to put hot water, but it has to be the hotest water you can hold and you have to keep your hand in that place for an hour, if you are still a bit scared of what might happen try to contact the sea world in san francisco that has developed a treatment for the lionfish stings.
eelfreakrobi
Member
im just 16, my parents are doctors and when I got one my mother got kind of paranoid and she checked her book on internal medicine and thats what it says. also the number on sea world and sorry its not san francisco its san diego(my bad) is
619-222-0411
619-222-0411
fmarini
Member
your first thing is to keep your kids hands out of the tank. Lionfish venom is not usually lethal, mainly becuz they inject so little. However it does a good deal of tissue damage and the pain is unbearable for about 30min-1hr.
AS mentioned the first course of action is immerse the injected site under non scalding hot water for 30min-1hr. It will reduce the severity and damage of the sting. Second ensure there is no more spine left in the wound, and third concern youself about a bacterial infection (your tank is full of bacteria). There are a few report online which show out of 100 ER visits due to lionfish envenomation the 2 major symptoms are pain and swelling, no reported deaths, no convulsion and no paralysis.
(fish however exhibit these symptoms when zapped).
However some people are allergic (I won't say that being allergic to a bee sting will guarentee your sensitive to lionfish venom-its different). However point taken, some people can be sensitive and this envenomation might trigger an immune response.
frank
AS mentioned the first course of action is immerse the injected site under non scalding hot water for 30min-1hr. It will reduce the severity and damage of the sting. Second ensure there is no more spine left in the wound, and third concern youself about a bacterial infection (your tank is full of bacteria). There are a few report online which show out of 100 ER visits due to lionfish envenomation the 2 major symptoms are pain and swelling, no reported deaths, no convulsion and no paralysis.
(fish however exhibit these symptoms when zapped).
However some people are allergic (I won't say that being allergic to a bee sting will guarentee your sensitive to lionfish venom-its different). However point taken, some people can be sensitive and this envenomation might trigger an immune response.
frank
chrismilano
Member
Twice now Ive had my tank fill with a stringy cloudy mess. Ribbon eel, trigger, and volitan. Is this venom?
S
simm
Guest
I had a friend get stung. His hand and arm swelled up and the skin from the hand to the elbow turned black. But he eventualy got over it. The outer membrane is not poisonus unless he gets poked by his fins. BUT the sting to a little one can be very dangerous. Exspecialy if they are allergic to bees or anyone allergic to bee stings.
fmarini
Member
Simm:
you bring up an interesting point but one thats unclear to me.
IMO, Being allergic to bee stings (hymenoptera venoms) does not guarentee you will be allergic to a lionfish sting (scorpinedae venom). The composition of the lionfish venom is different than a bee sting. The individual proteins in the venom are different, and of course the source of the protiens is different(so they are modified in different ways). Most likely the two sources of venom have different antigens which illicit the hyper immune response. So while i will agree w/ you that people can becomes sensitized to bee stings they don't necessarily have to be allergic to a lionfish sting.
I've searched hi-and-low to find data comparing the two venoms, to try to come to some conclusions about which of these venom protiens are responsible and they appear to be very different. While the end result of being stuck by a bee and a lionfish result in the same general phemonenon of pain and swelling, the two venoms appear to work in different manners. For humans, the source of reactivity in bee venom appear to be phospholipase A2, and low-molecular-weight honey-bee allergen (Api m 6). There is cross reactivity to bee sting w/ wasp stings due to a similar carbohydrate antigen epitopes. However this does not appear to be the case for lionfish. The major sources of reactivity are from non proteinacious toxin molecules, acetylcholine, and a toxin that affects neuromuscular transmission.
However it appears that stone fish venom and lionfish venom are identical and most likely will have cross reactivity in humans
Either way you don't want to get stung.
frank
you bring up an interesting point but one thats unclear to me.
IMO, Being allergic to bee stings (hymenoptera venoms) does not guarentee you will be allergic to a lionfish sting (scorpinedae venom). The composition of the lionfish venom is different than a bee sting. The individual proteins in the venom are different, and of course the source of the protiens is different(so they are modified in different ways). Most likely the two sources of venom have different antigens which illicit the hyper immune response. So while i will agree w/ you that people can becomes sensitized to bee stings they don't necessarily have to be allergic to a lionfish sting.
I've searched hi-and-low to find data comparing the two venoms, to try to come to some conclusions about which of these venom protiens are responsible and they appear to be very different. While the end result of being stuck by a bee and a lionfish result in the same general phemonenon of pain and swelling, the two venoms appear to work in different manners. For humans, the source of reactivity in bee venom appear to be phospholipase A2, and low-molecular-weight honey-bee allergen (Api m 6). There is cross reactivity to bee sting w/ wasp stings due to a similar carbohydrate antigen epitopes. However this does not appear to be the case for lionfish. The major sources of reactivity are from non proteinacious toxin molecules, acetylcholine, and a toxin that affects neuromuscular transmission.
However it appears that stone fish venom and lionfish venom are identical and most likely will have cross reactivity in humans
Either way you don't want to get stung.
frank
itchy
Member
Hey Frank being a nurse I wonder if you researched histamines if you might find more info? With bee stings and wasp it is the histamine that rushes to the site of the sting and causes a local reaction. If at any poit in your life you have had a severe reaction to a sting it usually get worse as you get older becuase more and more histamines react to the site . Sometimes this is a localized reaction and sometimes it can be systemic.
For instance...I am allergic to jelly fish and bees...found this out the hard way but anyway. I had such a reaction to the venom on the first occasion that chances are next time I will need to be medically treated immediately. This is all do to an increase in the amount of histamines your body needs to fight off the venom. I know this is a broad response but I did my best so that it would make sense to us. Any other information I will be glad to look up and respond step by step if I can as to how and why the body reacts different ways to the venom. I guess what I am saying is I think that the natural response of the body would be to respond in the same way to any sting but sometimes the venom is MORE than our natural immune can handle and some times it takes more histamines to help fight a particluar venom. That is the jist of it as far as I can see. I may have jsut confused my damn self lmao.
For instance...I am allergic to jelly fish and bees...found this out the hard way but anyway. I had such a reaction to the venom on the first occasion that chances are next time I will need to be medically treated immediately. This is all do to an increase in the amount of histamines your body needs to fight off the venom. I know this is a broad response but I did my best so that it would make sense to us. Any other information I will be glad to look up and respond step by step if I can as to how and why the body reacts different ways to the venom. I guess what I am saying is I think that the natural response of the body would be to respond in the same way to any sting but sometimes the venom is MORE than our natural immune can handle and some times it takes more histamines to help fight a particluar venom. That is the jist of it as far as I can see. I may have jsut confused my damn self lmao.
S
simm
Guest
FMarini I see your point and I agree but as a Paramedic I have been on a call to where a child was stung by a lion fish and he was allergic to bees. He swelled right up and airway was blocked due to it. Had the exact symptoms of a bee sting. Gave him the same meds we do to bee stings and it counteracted the sting. BUT people regardless if allergic will respond differently. A person who is allergic to bee stings will more than likely respond to the venom differently than someone who is not. As you said, just dont get stung. I hate needles and a big lion has BIG quills when it gets big.
fmarini
Member
Hey guys:
Very valid points.
Simms your right, hospital and medical professsional treat these emergencies the same becuz they act on the same pathways, the venoms from a bee and a lionfish most likely trigger the same responses in your body albeit from different pathways-they converge on a common immune pathway the degranulation of circulating and skin resident mast cells, the subsequent degranulation of the mast cells and the outpouring of histamines. As so so eloquently pointed out by Itchy, they both result in the same general response. So treatment would be antihistamines and general immune depressants (like coriticos)
So my point is (yes I'm getting there) that assuming you should/could/would immunize some naive person w/ lionfish venom and another person with bee venom and then after a few years inject the other with the other venom that you may not have a similar hyperimmune response. The actual proteins which generate the responses are most likely very different and any antibody mediated effects would target these protiens would vary as well.
I would suspect that any venom, in general terms, would probably act on the same immediate pathways (pain and inflammation), and generate the same intial responses, but long term responses, and whether your sensitive to another venom resulting in a hyperimmune response (like anaphylaxia) could not be guarenteed. Maybe even getting zapped by a rattlesnake might cause the same results-don't know and hopefully i won't find out.
In my 15yrs of lionfish keepin I have been tagged 3 times, I only had pain and swelling (okay alot of pain and some numbness too), but I am hyperimmune to wasp stings (found out the hard way as well), and I was fortunate to never get hyperimmune to the lionfish stings.
The end........
Okay... if I may summarize.....
keep your kids hands out of the tank and don't get stung by a lionfish
frank
Very valid points.
Simms your right, hospital and medical professsional treat these emergencies the same becuz they act on the same pathways, the venoms from a bee and a lionfish most likely trigger the same responses in your body albeit from different pathways-they converge on a common immune pathway the degranulation of circulating and skin resident mast cells, the subsequent degranulation of the mast cells and the outpouring of histamines. As so so eloquently pointed out by Itchy, they both result in the same general response. So treatment would be antihistamines and general immune depressants (like coriticos)
So my point is (yes I'm getting there) that assuming you should/could/would immunize some naive person w/ lionfish venom and another person with bee venom and then after a few years inject the other with the other venom that you may not have a similar hyperimmune response. The actual proteins which generate the responses are most likely very different and any antibody mediated effects would target these protiens would vary as well.
I would suspect that any venom, in general terms, would probably act on the same immediate pathways (pain and inflammation), and generate the same intial responses, but long term responses, and whether your sensitive to another venom resulting in a hyperimmune response (like anaphylaxia) could not be guarenteed. Maybe even getting zapped by a rattlesnake might cause the same results-don't know and hopefully i won't find out.
In my 15yrs of lionfish keepin I have been tagged 3 times, I only had pain and swelling (okay alot of pain and some numbness too), but I am hyperimmune to wasp stings (found out the hard way as well), and I was fortunate to never get hyperimmune to the lionfish stings.
The end........
Okay... if I may summarize.....
keep your kids hands out of the tank and don't get stung by a lionfish
frank
S
simm
Guest
FMarini good summary and I agree. Hey also if I may ask. Do you have yours in a reef tank and how "reef safe" are they from your experiance?
fmarini
Member
Simm:
I personally don't keep any lions in a reef tank (and by the way i got rid of my reeftank). my main reasoning is that unless you plan on having a tank w/ only the lionfsh and corals, then its pretty boring.
A reeftank + lion is a mixed bag, depends on the species of lion and its temperment. I have found some lion who love to eat hermits, some don't. Some will gulp cleaners shrimp, some don't.
Obviously volitans lions will elimiante any possiblity of colorful reef fish and ornamental inverts, but i have seen it done.
Let just say i call lionfish reeflimiting.
AS an important aside.....
I think you guys might find this article real interesting
frank
I personally don't keep any lions in a reef tank (and by the way i got rid of my reeftank). my main reasoning is that unless you plan on having a tank w/ only the lionfsh and corals, then its pretty boring.
A reeftank + lion is a mixed bag, depends on the species of lion and its temperment. I have found some lion who love to eat hermits, some don't. Some will gulp cleaners shrimp, some don't.
Obviously volitans lions will elimiante any possiblity of colorful reef fish and ornamental inverts, but i have seen it done.
Let just say i call lionfish reeflimiting.
AS an important aside.....
I think you guys might find this article real interesting
frank
azonic
Active Member
The major sources of reactivity are from non proteinacious toxin molecules, acetylcholine, and a toxin that affects neuromuscular transmission.
Fmarini: I was wondering if you knew any more details concerning how it affects the Acetylcholine neurotransmitters. Anything that affects ACh, has the potential to be quite serious. ACh is the messenger at every junction between a motor neruon and a skeletal muscle. Basically, when ACh is released by the axons on of one nerve, and recieved by the dendrites of another nerve, it causes the muscle to contract. There are 3 main possibilities that could happen depending on how the ACh is affected by the lionfish venom.
#1 - It can occupy and block the receptor sites on a recieving neuron which will prevent ACh from being transmitted, in turn not allowing muscles to contract, which is basically being paralyzed. It's the type of stuff indian tribes use to hunt...they put a poison, Curare, on their darts which blocks receptor sites causing the animal to become paralyzed.
#2 - Another "option" is that it can block the release of ACh on the sending neuron which would have the same affect as blocking the recieving neuron. An example of this would be from Botulin poisining which can form in the inproper canning of canned foods.
#3 - The third option and most dangerous would be if it causes a synaptic flood of ACh from the sending neuron to the recieving neuron. In this case, black widow spider venom is a good example. It "impersonates" ACh and "overflows" the recieving neuron with what it thinks is ACh...thus causing violent muscle contractions, convulsions, and POSSIBLE death.
My basic question to you is do you know if it acts as an Agonist (mimics the neurotransmitter), or an Antagonist ( blocks neurotransmitter). I don't usually post in the aggresive forum having a reef tank but I felt your response was left open-ended without specifying the exact affect on the ACh.
Sorry for the neuroscience lecture, I tried to keep it in lehman's terms as mush as possible.
Fmarini: I was wondering if you knew any more details concerning how it affects the Acetylcholine neurotransmitters. Anything that affects ACh, has the potential to be quite serious. ACh is the messenger at every junction between a motor neruon and a skeletal muscle. Basically, when ACh is released by the axons on of one nerve, and recieved by the dendrites of another nerve, it causes the muscle to contract. There are 3 main possibilities that could happen depending on how the ACh is affected by the lionfish venom.
#1 - It can occupy and block the receptor sites on a recieving neuron which will prevent ACh from being transmitted, in turn not allowing muscles to contract, which is basically being paralyzed. It's the type of stuff indian tribes use to hunt...they put a poison, Curare, on their darts which blocks receptor sites causing the animal to become paralyzed.
#2 - Another "option" is that it can block the release of ACh on the sending neuron which would have the same affect as blocking the recieving neuron. An example of this would be from Botulin poisining which can form in the inproper canning of canned foods.
#3 - The third option and most dangerous would be if it causes a synaptic flood of ACh from the sending neuron to the recieving neuron. In this case, black widow spider venom is a good example. It "impersonates" ACh and "overflows" the recieving neuron with what it thinks is ACh...thus causing violent muscle contractions, convulsions, and POSSIBLE death.
My basic question to you is do you know if it acts as an Agonist (mimics the neurotransmitter), or an Antagonist ( blocks neurotransmitter). I don't usually post in the aggresive forum having a reef tank but I felt your response was left open-ended without specifying the exact affect on the ACh.
Sorry for the neuroscience lecture, I tried to keep it in lehman's terms as mush as possible.
fmarini
Member
Azonic:
I'll look into the specifics, however i can guesstimate what the response will be based on the required effects of the venom.
1) the lionfish uses this venom as a defensive weapon and therefore wants the recipient of the venom to stop harassing him/her.
2) these fish do not use their venom to slow their prey -unlike a rattlesnake which uses the neurotxin portion of their venom to prevent their prey from escaping.
3) the venom is not usually lethal except in high doses.
Care to guess while l find the info??
frank
I'll look into the specifics, however i can guesstimate what the response will be based on the required effects of the venom.
1) the lionfish uses this venom as a defensive weapon and therefore wants the recipient of the venom to stop harassing him/her.
2) these fish do not use their venom to slow their prey -unlike a rattlesnake which uses the neurotxin portion of their venom to prevent their prey from escaping.
3) the venom is not usually lethal except in high doses.
Care to guess while l find the info??
frank
azonic
Active Member
I believe it acts the same way as option 3 i described. My experience with lionfish is very limited but from what I have picked up on this board I think it would be the third option. A synaptic flood mimicing that of ACh.
IMO, that would explain reports of convulsions and serious muscle contractions in rare cases...most likely because the fish got a higer dosage of venom into the unlucky recipient of the sting. Also helps to prove, IMO, that the dose of venom released is small which is why we usually only experience intense pain. The intense pain is linked to ACh in a way as well...when something happens to our body, the sensory neuron in the place we get stung transfers the information to the interneurons in our spinal cord....which in turn sends a motor neuron or responce back to the original site. ie. a persons finger. This then causes us to pull our finger away VERY quickly..it may even seem like pulling the finger was an involuntary movement which you had no control over because in fact the information has no yet reached the brain at this point...when it reaches the brain a split second later, we notice the pain. Works much the same way our reflexes do.
There is something called the gate control theory which also helps to make this clear as well. It simply states that the spinal cord contains a nerological "gate" that either blocks pain signals or allows them to pass on to the brain. When you are injured, you activate and open the neural gate, causing you to feel pain. The more severe the injury the more pain you feel(duh). But it also goes on to explain that chronic pain such as what we would feel from the lionfish sting goes away while running hot water over the area. It is said that by doing this, the hot water slowly closes the gates in your spinal cord, thus lowering the pain.
I think all of it is related somehow, it has to be, it's all part of the central nervous system. But option 3 would be my guess, sorry for the rant
IMO, that would explain reports of convulsions and serious muscle contractions in rare cases...most likely because the fish got a higer dosage of venom into the unlucky recipient of the sting. Also helps to prove, IMO, that the dose of venom released is small which is why we usually only experience intense pain. The intense pain is linked to ACh in a way as well...when something happens to our body, the sensory neuron in the place we get stung transfers the information to the interneurons in our spinal cord....which in turn sends a motor neuron or responce back to the original site. ie. a persons finger. This then causes us to pull our finger away VERY quickly..it may even seem like pulling the finger was an involuntary movement which you had no control over because in fact the information has no yet reached the brain at this point...when it reaches the brain a split second later, we notice the pain. Works much the same way our reflexes do.
There is something called the gate control theory which also helps to make this clear as well. It simply states that the spinal cord contains a nerological "gate" that either blocks pain signals or allows them to pass on to the brain. When you are injured, you activate and open the neural gate, causing you to feel pain. The more severe the injury the more pain you feel(duh). But it also goes on to explain that chronic pain such as what we would feel from the lionfish sting goes away while running hot water over the area. It is said that by doing this, the hot water slowly closes the gates in your spinal cord, thus lowering the pain.
I think all of it is related somehow, it has to be, it's all part of the central nervous system. But option 3 would be my guess, sorry for the rant