LR Bio-balls??

[thangbom]

ok.. lets see what out opinions are... i had this in mind for a long long time now... on imo.. submerged bio-balls are are same thing as live rock.. and maybe even better then live rock.. well why or how?? well.. let's start.. ok lr.. al it is.. is verry porus rock so with bacteria growth living in those pours.. that is one of the key elements in live rock.. the only reason why we want there pours is because it give more surface area for bacteria growth.. soo.. imo.. submerged bio-balls are the same as lr.. i mean.. it's just a place for bacteria to grow.. and it has greal surface asre for bacteria.. so why do we overrate LR and underate bio-balls?....

 

[pohtr]

good question, I'd like to know the same thing.
I have a bunch of small porous rock pieces from the beach (this is legal, it is called "shelling" or "beach combing"....no lectures!) which I am currently cleaning and planning on using in my wet dry with the bio balls.
Seems to me like they ought to be working the same way whether they're in the wet dry or in the tank.

 

[thangbom]

yupper.. i think so 2.. it's so much as a question but my own opion on the fact.. i mean.. lr is nice.. but it's it the same as bio-ball to a certain extent.. im just trying to figure out why boi-balls are so hated...

 

[bgriff]

Since your talking about submerging them.. I can see your point, its been the trickle of water through bio-balls (the dry part of the filter) that I've been told, and have had problems with nasty tank growth which led me to replaced them with filter material.. but I'm not expert..

 

[jon.316]

ok.. let just take this futher.. if the balls when not summerged like a trickle filter..... how is it bad still.... i mean.. they are design the way they are so larger stuff can flow through and pas s them... ( why els are the pins and such soo far spaced out.. they could of easily made them smaller and finner to have more surface area per given space) anyhow.. so.. the only thing i see that can go wrong using a 'trickle filter' set-up with bio-ball is if the tank owner way way overfeed the tank.. causing it to get cleaned up by the over flow and into the bio-balls... i mean.. if it was only a few peices.. then it would eventually pass through the trickle filter..

 

[carshark]

you are making a good point, but research and time in the hobby tells a different story. Bio Balls have been known culprits of high nitrates over time. they are no more benefical than LR rubble WITH adequate lighting. the downside, which LR does not posess is that they are known nitrate factories. filter floss and rubble is far superior because of nothing but benefical attributes are associated with it. If there is a downside, not to mention cleaning, to any filtration why not eliminate it?

 

[bchbum189]

i agree, i went away from bio balls due to them building up with gunk over time, of course they could be cleaned but rocks wont need it plus i think lr looks alot better, i enjoy having a sump with snails and algea and other life in it instead of blue balls(pun intended).

 

[pohtr]

Originally Posted by carshark
you are making a good point, but research and time in the hobby tells a different story. Bio Balls have been known culprits of high nitrates over time. they are no more benefical than LR rubble WITH adequate lighting. the downside, which LR does not posess is that they are known nitrate factories. filter floss and rubble is far superior because of nothing but benefical attributes are associated with it. If there is a downside, not to mention cleaning, to any filtration why not eliminate it?
Could you explain this a little better? Are you saying that it is the bioballs that are bad or the wet/dry? Can you use the bioballs under water? Is it better to use LR rubble in the wet/dry? Or is wet/dry bad, period? Or should the wet/dry just be wet? Or skip the wet/dry and just have more LR in the tank? And what do you mean by LR rubble anyway? Do you mean use that rubble in the tank or in the wet/dry? And what does the lighting have to do with it?
I'm more confused now than I ever was......

 

[carshark]

Originally Posted by pohtr
Could you explain this a little better? Are you saying that it is the bioballs that are bad or the wet/dry? Can you use the bioballs under water? Is it better to use LR rubble in the wet/dry? Or is wet/dry bad, period? Or should the wet/dry just be wet? Or skip the wet/dry and just have more LR in the tank? And what do you mean by LR rubble anyway? Do you mean use that rubble in the tank or in the wet/dry? And what does the lighting have to do with it?
I'm more confused now than I ever was......
didnt mean to confuse you, LR rubble is just what it is, LR reduced to rubble, you see a lot of it when you get a shipment of LR in. you can typically order LR rubble which is about 1 or two bucks a pound, or you could sacrifcie some of your LR, but i know my choice. id rather buy it and keep what rock I have. wet/dry is fine, the bioballs themselves get gunky and have been known to harvest nitrates (nitrate factory) the wet/dry is wet, water feeds from your tank/overflow into the wet/dry, it then passes through a chamber where you typically find bioballs , filterfloss, and then filter pads. the water then trickles out of there into a chamber where you would house a pump for a return. the reason for bringing up the lighting is that you can get nice coraline growth on it, but the light is not neccessary because filterfeeders in LR do not need light to survive. live rock is always beneficial, because of filterfeeders in the rock. so its a live filter so to speak. plus it always adds a good look. but wet/dry are excellent places to store a skimmer if you want, and like a heater, other mechanical media.

 

[rumrunner]

This is a good topic. Here is how I understand it. I may be wrong or missing something, but here goes. The issue with bioballs that I have read about (and the one that makes sense to me) is: There are too efficient a filter when exposed to air (as in a wet/dry filter) and break down ammonia into nitrates very quickly. Without a means of exporting excess nitrates such as macroalgae, etc. the nitrates build up in the system. Hence the term nitrate factory that is used to describe wet/dry filters.
Live rock converts ammonia into nitrate more slowly, but it also is capable of breaking down nitrates into harmless nitrogen gas in the deeper areas of the rock in which anaerobic(sp?) bacteria grows. This is the same concept behind deep sand beds that use anaerobic bacteria to break down nitrates. This is the main difference between bioballs and LR that I have come across. This makes sense to me. If you were to completely submerge the bioballs you still would not be able to process the nitrates like LR as far as I know. I am bye no means an expert, I am just trying to explain it as I understand it.
HTH

 

[carshark]

that is exactly right, and couldnt have put it better myself. great post..

 

[thangbom]

ok cheack this out.. all that is known to me.... (all that can happen in a typical and non maintenced system.. about a nitrate factory.. when not used right..) ok.. let me re say this.. or quot this anyhow..
'water feeds from your tank/overflow into the wet/dry, it then passes through a chamber where you typically find bioballs , filterfloss, and then filter pads. the water then trickles out of there into a chamber where you would house a pump for a return'
soo.. the first thing in a wet/dry set-up to get DT water is the bio-ball??.. hum.. imo.. thats the wrong way to set it up...
here lie the tricky part to this trend.. in a properly set up wet/dry system.. it sould go as following.. display tank water first go's through the filter flos then the bio balls.. the filter floss skimms out the kinda.. screens out the bigger particalss that can get cought in the bio-balls ( yes.. this is where your could be nitrate factory come in...) and it can even further screen out smaller particals if u have a finer filter pad/floss meadia.. the water that runs pass my filter pad.. looks soo clean of debree cuzz the filtrer pad.. anyhow.. afther it passes this filter pad.. that is placed over my drip plate.. it go's to my bio-balls... sooo..... how is it that my biio-balls turn to 'nitrate factory' my wet/dry been set up to my tank for over 2 1/2 yeas.. and the bio-balls themself look like how they where when i first bought them.. and yes.. they are working... cuzz all of my fish are still alive .. and water is still in perm....

 

[carshark]

no no i wasnt stating the actual order, just what you would find in there, sorry to have the miscommunication. either way how it is set up, maintnenced or not, they have been known culprits to higher nitrates. this is not a rule of thumb for every single little system out there, some things work for people differently, i was simply making a statement based on a generalization on how bioballs affect nutrient levels. i figure LR is beneficial and has no side effects, like cleaning, and nitrates, obviously there is an advantage to it.
but you also comment on the water being so clean, you can not see nitrates with the

[hr]
eye, the water could be crystal clear, yet it could contain high ppm's of NO3, ammonia, etc.. its is a problem if your bioballs are dirty, but by no means does it mean because they are clean that they filter nitrates well, and on the contrary dirty bioballs could be the sign of age and denitrifying bacteria growth.
this is not an issue of fish survival per se, the purpose of this topic is to discuss the actual amount nitrate and other toxins being broken down in a fashionable and effective manner.

 

[thangbom]

yes your right on how look can be decieving.. i mean.. just cuzz the waters green dont means it's not healthy.. anyhow.. lr do go bad.. your sapose to 'shake' them out every 6 months or so in salt water to free it of debree.. ( if u ever aquascape befor then you should know what i am saying) anyhow.. some people 'cook' there rock to clean them as well.. anyhow.. like i said .. .. both have there ups and down.. so why is bio-balls still soo shunned?..

 

[thangbom]

ohh and by no means i am not stating that you are wrong or that im mad or taking things offensivly.. im just playing the devils advocate on this...

 

[pohtr]

So, if using LR rubble is better then is it better in wet/dry or all wet? Would all wet be like just letting the water in the sump get higher? Then if so, and you add light, aren't you creating a refugium? Can you have a refugium with the wet/dry? ( or is that off the topic?) And if so, wouldn't that be the best defense against the nitrate factory?

 

[hot883]

Originally Posted by pohtr
So, if using LR rubble is better then is it better in wet/dry or all wet? Would all wet be like just letting the water in the sump get higher? Then if so, and you add light, aren't you creating a refugium? Can you have a refugium with the wet/dry? ( or is that off the topic?) And if so, wouldn't that be the best defense against the nitrate factory?
Alot of ppl turn their wet/dry into a refugium and for very good reasons. It's all about taking out bad things in the water. LR eats bad things as LS does, bio balls filters it and in turns stores the bad stuff there. Am I right? Jump in if I'm wrong!

 

[rumrunner]

thanks for the compliment carshark.
The problem is that the end product of bioballs or any other filter is nitrates. Whether they are submerged or exposed to air. The difference is that liverock has the capacity to break down nitrates. That is something bioballs can't do.
So in my reef tank with 1 1/2 lbs of liverock and a skimmer I have zero nitrates. Say I added a wet/dry filter to my reef. The potential problem (as I understand it) would be that the wet/dry would break down the ammonia to nitrates so fast that the liverock would not be able to keep up (meaning it would not be able to break down nitrates as fast as the bioballs produce them). In that situation you would see a gradual rise in nitrate levels. This would happen even if the bioballs were sparkling clean.
Now some people have reefs that have detectible nitrate levels. That says to me that they are either overstocked (exceeding the capacity of their liverock) or not removing enough waste (ex. inefficient skimmer or lack of water changes). So, they add a refugium with a deep sand bed which now helps breaks down the nitrates and/or add macroalgae that feeds off the nitrates. So the nitrates are being handled in that situation.
A tank with a wet/dry as the only filtration will have a gradual build up of nitrates that can only be decreased with water changes. Just like freshwater tanks. That is fine for fish only tanks. It is just a problem for reefs.

 

[pohtr]

So if LR rubble is used in a wet/dry without bioballs then the nitrate factory problem is resolved? And if so then, why use bio balls at all?
But also, if the bioballs are producing too many nitrates for the LR to keep up with then if the bioballs didn't do that, wouldn't that mean there'd be an ammonia problem instead?

 

[carshark]

Originally Posted by pohtr
So if LR rubble is used in a wet/dry without bioballs then the nitrate factory problem is resolved? And if so then, why use bio balls at all?
But also, if the bioballs are producing too many nitrates for the LR to keep up with then if the bioballs didn't do that, wouldn't that mean there'd be an ammonia problem instead?
thats my argument about use of bioballs. if you have high nitrates you are creating too much waste for your system to break down. so, ammonia is breaking down, ammonia is created by fish waste, and uneaten food, you have to have somewhere for the nitrates to be consumed/broken down. this is why a refugium IMO, is a must have. algae feeds on phosphates and nitrates and light. so with macros in your fuge, you have nitrate consuming organisms. the breaking down of ammonia into nitrates is why water changes are so important. nitrates need a place to go or be consumed, however this does not mean if you have a fuge that water changes are not neccessary. its more natural to replace the water then to add chemicals to replenish trace elements being used up, and just to remove a fair amount of nitrates that dont have time to be broken down by your fuge before they reach toxic levels. this is also why LR is soooo important. it creates a massive amount of surface area for bacteria to live and help break down nitrates. nitrates will/can be created faster than your system can handle typically thats why so much filtration mechanical and natural is important. also the bio balls are more of a trap for nitrates, not because of more ammonia, but because they are too concentrated with breaking down wastes. your LR becomes almost obselete, which i believe
RumRunner touched on..
this is just my understanding, and if i am wrong please let me know..