LS vs CC (again)

[doodle1800]

I switched from a sand bed to cc - a thin layer of about 1/2". I have a different question though. I wonder if its ok to have a small area in the tank with LS also - a seperate corner of the tank for instance. I'd like fish like a Rainsford goby, who likes to sift through the sand looking for food.
So far I like my thin cc bottom. My LS was too fine and blew up all over the rocks and had to be blown off constantly. Maybe courser LS would have been better, but I switched to cc.

 

[snipe]

You mention the cleaning thing again still if you have to clean it then it is more than live sand. Live sand just sets there and dose nothing. You say sand traps debri "thats a load" it cant the sand particles are to fine for the stuff to get under it. CC has big peices that poke out of the top and creates pockets that stuff gets trapped in and causes mini cycles and algea outbrakes. And as for vacuming live sand nope you dont do that. I do agree on not messing with live sand but that is only to a certain extent. Also with crushed coral it is harder for the burrowing inverts there not used to digging through rock there used to digging through sand. That said if you have a sand bed you dont have to do any maintence that is what the cleaning crew is for.

 

[snipe]

But anyway I understand what your saying I just dont agree with some of it. But o-well "NO" one will agree the same that is why some ppl still hold the undergravel filter up and some dont. And even if you do move the sand or crushed coral around wouldnt the live rock eventually seed it again? And you wont have the deep CC bed but you will still have the other bacteria on it even if you move it right?
Oh well Most ppl on here will disagree on the crushed coral 100% "hey I did" but o well just drop it now.

 

[sly]

That's why I like a CC base. If you use CC, don't try to use it to remove nitrate. Instead use LR or other means of denitrification. Because you are keeping a shallow CC base, it won't house anaerobic bacteria. The CC will remain high in oxygen and therefore if you move things around, it won't crash the system.
It's anaerobic bacteria that causes a system crash. When anaerobic bacteria is exposed to oxygen, it dies. Then you have nothing left to complete the nitrogen cycle and nitrates will go through the roof. Anaerobic bacteria are good, but you have to be carefull not to kill it. Distrurbing a DSB is what kills this bacteria. If you instead use LR, you CAN'T kill this anaerobic bacteria. This is because the bacteria will colonise mostly in the rock, rather than the substrate because you are using a shallow CC base that is oxygen rich.
In other words, if wastes are present in the system, bacteria will want to form. Either it will form in the substrate or it will form in the LR. If you don't let it form in the substrate, it will prefer the LR instead. Now that the bacteria is colonised in your LR, your substrate is safe to move around and mix as you chose and the anaerobic bacteria will be protected by the porus nature of the LR.
I probably need to write an article on using CC properly because it seems like most people are unfamiliar with it and becasuse they tried to use it like a DSB, they only had problems and are now convinced that CC is bad. Well, it's not. I would say that it's actually a lot better. You just have to approach filtering your tank differently and have to discard the mindset of using the substrate for denitrification.

 

[snipe]

Well even a deep sand bed wont be that mutch of a nitrate remover as you think since it has to be deep most ppl dont want a really deep bed cause of the look. So there is not really a very big layer of the bacteria to remove nitrates. And even if you did move it your not loosing as mutch nitrate remover as you think and wont effect the nitrate rise as your posting.
All in all I guess im saying in a tank there just isnt enough nitrate removing bacteria to really worry about that is why ppl by these big elaborite sumps and such to help remove them and that is why we do water changes to remove them. Even with a deep sand bed your still gonna have nitrates the deep sand bed wont effect it as big a hit as you think. I even heard that from one of the mods "or one of the bigger posters I forgot what one though".

 

[sly]

Maybe I need to further elaborate on the DSB denitrification. In a deep substrate, at the very bottom you will have an oxygen free zone. This is where most of the fine sludge ends up. In this zone, the sludge is converted to hydrogen sulfide. That is fine until the substrate is disturbed. Then the hydrogen sulfide escapes and ends up poisoning your tank and killing your bacteria, leading to a crash.
ABOVE the hydrogen sulfide layer is the layer of anaerobic bacteria that convert nitrite to nitrate. This bacteria lives in an oxygen poor zone above the oxygen starved zone.
Above this zone is the oxygen rich zone. This is a layer of substrate that is about an inch deep. Here, aerobic bacteria live. This is where ammonia is converted to nitrite.
Wether or not this method is very effective at removing nitrates is irrelivant. When the system is disturbed, the biological system is thrown out of balance and hydrogen sulfide is released.
In a shallow CC system, you only have the oxygen rich zone. You don't make it so deep to have the hydrogen sulfide, oxygen starved zone. This way, you will not have these wastes accumulating in your tank and you will not be waiting for the inevitable crash.
There are ways to avoid a DSB crash, but it typically involves swapping out substrate with other people to maintain bio-diversity (as Bang Guy mentioned)

 

[1journeyman]

There is some seriously wrong information in this thread...
"If the DSB is too deep then you will have areas that are totally oxygen starved and then you will have a different type of bacteria form that release toxic hydrogen sulfide in the tank"
That's not accurate. As long as you keep your DSB healthy the top layers of the sand are kept loose. This allows nitrogen gas to works its way out of the lower levels of the sand bed.
The real difference between CC and sand is whether you want to keep a more natural aquarium or not. CC requires more maintenance. You have to vaccuum CC.
Also, live rock does not contain enough anaerobic bacteria to convert significant amounts of nitrate.
"There are ways to avoid a DSB crash, but it typically involves swapping out substrate with other people to maintain bio-diversity (as Bang Guy mentioned)"
Imho, by you admitting that, you nullify your arguement. ANYTHING we do in our aquariums inproperly can lead to a crash. Try not vacuuming your cc for a month or two and see what happens...
I'm a big fan of the DSB. The theory behind it just makes more sense.

 

[bill f]

If seems that this is about maintenance and effectiveness of substrates, I'd be curious to hear some opinions on BARE BOTTOM tanks.
Good circulation and there's no build up what so ever.
Appearance wise I'd chose DSB

 

[sly]

Originally posted by 1journeyman
There is some seriously wrong information in this thread...
"If the DSB is too deep then you will have areas that are totally oxygen starved and then you will have a different type of bacteria form that release toxic hydrogen sulfide in the tank"
That's not accurate. As long as you keep your DSB healthy the top layers of the sand are kept loose. This allows nitrogen gas to works its way out of the lower levels of the sand bed.
Apparently I'm going to have to find some articles for you to read... Nitrogen gas has nothing to do with the nitrogen cycle. It's only the product of it. It is a completely benign gas and has no effect on the aquarium. It is oxygen that is involved in the nitrogen cycle.Oxygen hating (anaerobic) bacteria that converts nitrite to nitrate can not live in a completely oxygen free zone. This is becuase in this zone, hydrogen sulfide forms which kills the bacteria. De-nitrifying anaerobic bacteria live in the zone just above this that has very little oxygen. It is low enough for them to survive, but not too low to form hydrogen sulfide.
The real difference between CC and sand is whether you want to keep a more natural aquarium or not. CC requires more maintenance. You have to vaccuum CC.
Actually CC is very natural. This is what you find right around the base of a reef. Outward from this you will find sand beds. CC requires LESS maintenance...
Also, live rock does not contain enough anaerobic bacteria to convert significant amounts of nitrate.
Tell that to the bacteria that live there. LR is a very efficient way of housing anaerobic bacteria and it will not crash if you move it;
"There are ways to avoid a DSB crash, but it typically involves swapping out substrate with other people to maintain bio-diversity (as Bang Guy mentioned)"
Imho, by you admitting that, you nullify your arguement. ANYTHING we do in our aquariums inproperly can lead to a crash.
No, I am simply stating what Bang Guy stated above. He avoids crashing his system by swapping out his substrate with other reefers. This brings in new animal life as well to sift through the sand layers to help remove some of the waste. He has to keep doing this because with a DSB, these animals die off and have to keep being replaced. This sounds like "high" maintenance to me...
Try not vacuuming your cc for a month or two and see what happens...
I've not vacuumed my CC for over a year. Seems like you just nullified YOUR argument. Try reading the post.
I'm a big fan of the DSB. The theory behind it just makes more sense.
Just because it makes more sense to you does not mean that it is a better system. You just have never been taught how to have a CC system as well as many of the other people here and so you have formed this closed society that believes that CC is bad because you all say so. Well if you all do it wrong... then you are right. Having a CC system is just a different way of having a reef. Once you understand the mechanics behind what is going on, it's not as scary as some of you want to make it seem. You just have to "relearn" a new method... That's all.:joy:

 

[sly]

Originally posted by Bill F
If seems that this is about maintenance and effectiveness of substrates, I'd be curious to hear some opinions on BARE BOTTOM tanks.

I've never had a bare bottom tank, but I have read that it can stress some fish. This is because of the reflective bottom. The fish have fewer places to hide and feel comfortable and so they are stressed more. Also, with a bare bottom only system, you will not have a high surface area to house aerobic bacteria. This is the bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrite. You would need some other method of removing ammonia from the tank because of this. Probably an oversized wet/dry would do the trick. You're also more likely to have the glass shatter with the rocks sitting directly on the glass, rather than on the substrate. You definitely don't want anything to fall...:scared:

 

[bill f]

Sly - I have an acrylic so I don't think weight is an issue. I may try to find that starboard material for the bottom. That would cut down on glare.
Also going to run a 100 gallon sump and 40-50 gallon fuge.
I have southdown which would tend to drift under high circulation. Correct

 

[sly]

Let's continue it over on your thread. Here's the link for anyone interested in BB systems: https://www.saltwaterfish.com/vb/show...hreadid=155639

 

[bill f]

your right Sly, that's another topic sorry.

 

[snipe]

Sly your fighting a loosing battle no one is going to agree on this since live sand is the way to go. If live sand will crash no matter what you do then how come bang keeps a DSB and runs "filterless". How do you think he gets sand out to trade with other ppl "he has to disturb the sand bed to get it out and his stuff dont die" I have seen his tank and it is nice. Sand requires no work what so ever if you want to trade sand you can but that isnt work. If you have to run your fingers or vac or whate ever with crushed coral then it is work. "Blemmy need your pics "before and after". I would never go crushed coral ever and there alot of ppl that will back me on that. And there are alot of ppl who have removed crushed coral for sand and will never go back.

 

[sly]

There are a lot of people who had crushed coral and failed because all people on this site seem to know (or prefer) is one particular type of biologic filtration. The problem has been that the two schools of thought have been mixed and having a DSB has been applied by people with CC systems.
It's like saying that all gasoline engines are wrong because when you put diesel in them, they won't run. So then everybody sticks with diesel engines. It's amazing sometimes when something so logical as science is still brought up for discussion of wether or not it is "acceptable". Perhaps I'm just asking you to look at it in a different way and you refuse to or are just not interested. Fine. But don't discredit having a CC base when the majority of the time, they failed because of people in this forum telling them to treat it like sand...:notsure:
Oh, and using Bang Guy as your example of running filterless is the exception and is not fair. He has a 750 refugium and basically a full ocean simulation in his setup. It is not the same as the the majority of the other reefers who have "simple" $3000 systems and can't afford all the elaborate setup he has.
All I'm asking people to do is see that there are other ways of handling their tank that are virtually maintenance free. Think outside the box.

 

[snipe]

I admit using bang "incridble setup" as a point was not fair but he has even said he didnt think going filterless "IF" you have a DSB and Enough live rock.
And you have to think about the ppl ppl dont want "virtually" maintenance free they "want" maintenance free.

 

[1journeyman]

Ok.. I'd love some articles to read. I've read plenty going the other way. You should check out the articles at wetwebmedia written by Fenner among others...
Here's the point I'm making. I understand the whole cycle from ammonia to nitrate. The benefit of a DBS is that the cycle is completed by releasing nitrogen gas. That is the goal of the cycle... Using a cc sandbed you will never get enough anearobic bacteria to complete the cycle. Nitrate buildup in your tank will result unless your water changes keep it in check.
CC used to be the way to go. As we have learned more about aquariums, however, we can now move away from it.
Sly, your statement that nitrogen gas isn't involved in the nitrogen cycle is baffling The goal of any "cycle" in nature is to reduce things to their simplest parts. Thus ammonia>>> nitrogen gas. In a cc tank, the cycle gets stuck at nitrate.
You stated that cc fails because people on this forum are telling folks to treat it like sand. That can't be farther from the truth. Let me state, for the record, you vaccuum CC, you do NOT vaccuum a DSB.
Think outside the box? Nope.. our aquariums are "boxes". We have to think "inside" them. to sum it up, a DSB allows for the completion of the nitrogen cycle. a CC substrate does not.

 

[snipe]

As you can see what I staded about the fighting battle thing is true. Im not trying to be mean it is just with the advances in keeping marine life sand is the way to go.

 

[sly]

This is freaking ridiculous. I try to help other people and all I do is step on the sacred cows that are in the way... Originally posted by 1journeyman
Here's the point I'm making. I understand the whole cycle from ammonia to nitrate. The benefit of a DBS is that the cycle is completed by releasing nitrogen gas. That is the goal of the cycle... Using a cc sandbed you will never get enough anearobic bacteria to complete the cycle. Nitrate buildup in your tank will result unless your water changes keep it in check.
You have a nice way of ignoring everything I've said and only picking out the first thing that sticks out to you. Here... Let me quote for you what I said because you obviously want to put words in my mouth. I said
said by Sly If you use CC, don't try to use it to remove nitrate. Instead use LR or other means of denitrification. Because you are keeping a shallow CC base, it won't house anaerobic bacteria. The CC will remain high in oxygen and therefore if you move things around, it won't crash the system.
See. i have already stated what you said, yet you turn it around to try to make yourself look right and everything I said, wrong. I explained fully that the goal of a CC system is NOT to remove nitrate. Instead, rely on macros and LR to remove nitrate. They are much more stable than a DSB in that it can not crash!
Sly, your statement that nitrogen gas isn't involved in the nitrogen cycle is baffling The goal of any "cycle" in nature is to reduce things to their simplest parts. Thus ammonia>>> nitrogen gas.
Again, you are only hearing what you want to hear. I said that nitrogen does not affect the nitrogen cycle. In otherwords, if nitrogen is present, the cycle will not occur faster or slower. In fact, I said the exact same thing you are saying.
said by Sly Nitrogen gas has nothing to do with the nitrogen cycle. It's only the product of it. It is a completely benign gas and has no effect on the aquarium. It is oxygen that is involved in the nitrogen cycle
This is what I was trying to say. Oxygen is the most important gas in the nitrogen cycle. It is the catalyst for the oxidation-reduction reaction where ammonia is converted into nitrite. The ABSENCE of oxygen allows the anaerobic process of Nitrate removal to occur. Having a shallow CC base purposefully sets the system to rely on the substrate for the oxidation-reduction reactions while the anaerobic processes will occur in the LR and macros instead. This is a safer method because you can't crash the substrate by mixing it with oxygen because when it is shallow, it will always be oxygen saturated.
In a cc tank, the cycle gets stuck at nitrate.

Why bother? I've answered this so many times already. You just don't want to listen.
You stated that cc fails because people on this forum are telling folks to treat it like sand. That can't be farther from the truth. Let me state, for the record, you vaccuum CC, you do NOT vaccuum a DSB.

This was not what I was talking about... When I said this, I was referring to people who set up their CC substrate deep like they would a sand bed. CC does not function like sand and you can't have it being 4-6 inches deep like you do with sand. This is pointless...
Think outside the box? Nope.. our aquariums are "boxes". We have to think "inside" them. to sum it up, a DSB allows for the completion of the nitrogen cycle. a CC substrate does not.
Again. Think outside the box and HEAR what I am saying and don't bring your prejudices into an otherwise informational thread. You keep telling me that CC will not remove nitrate when that is EXACTLY what I am saying also. We agree, yet you turn it around to make an invalid point. I have said over and over that in a CC system, nitrogen removal should be primarily at the hands of macro algae and LR (or any other preferred method of denitrification). JUST NOT THE SUBSTRATE. This removes the inherent danger of mixing oxygen into the substrate, ie. deep sand bed, killing the anaerobic bacteria and causing the tank to cycle. There's just so much to say, and too few ears to hear it.

 

[sly]

Originally posted by Snipe
As you can see what I staded about the fighting battle thing is true. Im not trying to be mean it is just with the advances in keeping marine life sand is the way to go.
I will not give up an informational article because trolls chose to bring their ignorance into it. It just furthers the point that needs to be made.