draconis321
Member
ok if there was a fight bettween a mantis and an octo of the same size who do you think would win??
Manti vs Octo
- Thread starter draconis321
- Start date
aquaknight
Active Member
Type "mantis shrimp vs octopus" into google. Click the first link, then copy/paste the link.
subielover
Active Member
Originally Posted by ERock412
http:///forum/post/2908651
http://www.reefcentral.com/vid/bluering
Geez, I voted octo before watching that video. That was crazy!
http:///forum/post/2908651
http://www.reefcentral.com/vid/bluering
Geez, I voted octo before watching that video. That was crazy!
camfish
Active Member
Originally Posted by subielover
http:///forum/post/2908746
Geez, I voted octo before watching that video. That was crazy!
I think that if the octo was larger, it would've been left alone...I guess someone had to figure out this would happen the hard way.
http:///forum/post/2908746
Geez, I voted octo before watching that video. That was crazy!
I think that if the octo was larger, it would've been left alone...I guess someone had to figure out this would happen the hard way.
goober_hunter
Member
wow thats crazy thats a blue ringed octo, very poisionous. nice vid.
jtrzerocool
Active Member
OMG...i voted octo...that video is insaine...and that was a blue-ringed octo...
coral keeper
Active Member
Originally Posted by ERock412
http:///forum/post/2908651
http://www.reefcentral.com/vid/bluering
That's cheating. The Octo is 1/2-1/3 the size of the mantis. IMO if they were both the SAME size, the Octo would defiantly win.
http:///forum/post/2908651
http://www.reefcentral.com/vid/bluering
That's cheating. The Octo is 1/2-1/3 the size of the mantis. IMO if they were both the SAME size, the Octo would defiantly win.
jtrzerocool
Active Member
Originally Posted by Coral Keeper
http:///forum/post/2909678
That's cheating. The Octo is 1/2-1/3 the size of the mantis. IMO if they were both the SAME size, the Octo would defiantly win.
not necessarily,
you have to remember the claws on thoes things...
http:///forum/post/2909678
That's cheating. The Octo is 1/2-1/3 the size of the mantis. IMO if they were both the SAME size, the Octo would defiantly win.
not necessarily,
you have to remember the claws on thoes things...
draconis321
Member
that is an awsome video but the mantis had an unfair advantage did the mantis die after, considering that the blue ring can take down a human?
but i still think the octo if it were the same side would win i've seen both of these animals hunting so i have a pretty good idea
but i still think the octo if it were the same side would win i've seen both of these animals hunting so i have a pretty good idea
texasmetal
Active Member
From other videos I've seen octos seem to have a great respect for stomatopods. There is a documentary (can't remember the name) and a considerably larger Bimac approaches a mantis. The mantis does not retreat, smacks the octopus carefully a few times, the octopus swims away.
Mantis are ninjas.
Mantis are ninjas.
N
nihoa
Guest
Originally Posted by ERock412
http:///forum/post/2908651
http://www.reefcentral.com/vid/bluering
why were these put together in the first place? i dont understand the context of the video, whoever made it needs a kick
http:///forum/post/2908651
http://www.reefcentral.com/vid/bluering
why were these put together in the first place? i dont understand the context of the video, whoever made it needs a kick
texasmetal
Active Member
Originally Posted by Nihoa
http:///forum/post/2914775
why were these put together in the first place? i dont understand the context of the video, whoever made it needs a kick
The person who filmed the video is Dr. Roy Caldwell and I assure you there was scientific purpose behind it. He is the leading expert on stomatopods and is very involved in the study of various cephalopods (growth, development, toxin, etc) and other inverts.
http:///forum/post/2914775
why were these put together in the first place? i dont understand the context of the video, whoever made it needs a kick
The person who filmed the video is Dr. Roy Caldwell and I assure you there was scientific purpose behind it. He is the leading expert on stomatopods and is very involved in the study of various cephalopods (growth, development, toxin, etc) and other inverts.
N
nihoa
Guest
Originally Posted by TexasMetal
http:///forum/post/2914992
The person who filmed the video is Dr. Roy Caldwell and I assure you there was scientific purpose behind it. He is the leading expert on stomatopods and is very involved in the study of various cephalopods (growth, development, toxin, etc) and other inverts.
man, i know it isnt your film and im not ranting on you but i still find this a poor excuse. i work on island songbirds in hawaii and the amount of red tape, permitting, and animal husbandry courses needed for handling the birds (that is touch, not set up a deathmatch) is unbelievable. currently there are not similar regulations for research on inverts and i think this is sad. it would be so absolutely unacceptable to do this with vertebrate animals.
i would also say that if this was science it was lazy science. i cant imagine the aim of the study beyond: are mantis shrimp able to depredate toxic octopus. with the birds i study, when i wanted to know what they ate i went through hell to watch them eat, collected fecal samples to sift through, and applied to obtain samples of stomach contents (which was ultimately rejected). octopus and squid can be identified to species by their indigestible beaks (seabirds regurge squid beaks all the time giving loads of info on diet). if mantis shrimp are eating them there would be evidence to find but it seems this research team couldnt take the time to get this footage in the field.
all this video shows is that its possible for a large mantis to eat a small blue ring. it says nothing about whether this actually happens in nature. again, i dont mean to flame on you and i apologise if im sounding like an arse but there is plenty of research conducted behind the shield of SCIENCE! that isnt necessarily ethical or productive.
http:///forum/post/2914992
The person who filmed the video is Dr. Roy Caldwell and I assure you there was scientific purpose behind it. He is the leading expert on stomatopods and is very involved in the study of various cephalopods (growth, development, toxin, etc) and other inverts.
man, i know it isnt your film and im not ranting on you but i still find this a poor excuse. i work on island songbirds in hawaii and the amount of red tape, permitting, and animal husbandry courses needed for handling the birds (that is touch, not set up a deathmatch) is unbelievable. currently there are not similar regulations for research on inverts and i think this is sad. it would be so absolutely unacceptable to do this with vertebrate animals.
i would also say that if this was science it was lazy science. i cant imagine the aim of the study beyond: are mantis shrimp able to depredate toxic octopus. with the birds i study, when i wanted to know what they ate i went through hell to watch them eat, collected fecal samples to sift through, and applied to obtain samples of stomach contents (which was ultimately rejected). octopus and squid can be identified to species by their indigestible beaks (seabirds regurge squid beaks all the time giving loads of info on diet). if mantis shrimp are eating them there would be evidence to find but it seems this research team couldnt take the time to get this footage in the field.
all this video shows is that its possible for a large mantis to eat a small blue ring. it says nothing about whether this actually happens in nature. again, i dont mean to flame on you and i apologise if im sounding like an arse but there is plenty of research conducted behind the shield of SCIENCE! that isnt necessarily ethical or productive.
texasmetal
Active Member
The purpose of feeding the H. lunulata to the O. scyllarus was part of a larger line of study examining coevolutionary arms races. In particular we are interested in how predator and prey interact and deal with various offensive and defensive morphologies and behaviors. The animals were not put together for our entertainment. I wanted to ask a fairly basic initial question - would a stomatopod that occurs sympatrically with a blue-ring attack it? We generally think that the coloration of blue-rings is aposomatic, but aside from people usually avoiding them because they recognize the blue-rings and have been told by other humans that they are dangerous, I know of no data that that demonstrate that the blue rings serve as a warning to any other species that might play the role of "predator". The next question to ask if there was avoidance would be whether this behavior was learned of innate? Similar research has been done on other aposomatic systems such as mot-mots and coral snakes, yellow-bellied sea snakes exposed to predatory fish or herons and egrets, etc. It has not been done with blue-rings. Making the question even more interesting from an evolutionary perspective is the fact that both H. lunulata and O. scyllarus have indeterminate growth so it is possible for their interactions to vary with different size relationships - large stomatopods might be able to kill and/or eat smaller blue-rings and large blue-rings might be able to prey of smaller stomatopod. This could considerably complicate the dynamics. It would seem more difficult for an innate avoidance to evolve under these circumstances or even possibly a learned one.
So where do you start exploring such a question. I would prefer to make my initial observations in the field watching blue-rings and stomatopods interact, but such observations are extremely difficult and even if you are persistent and patient enough to see a few encounters, you have little control over the participants, their size, physiology, motivation, experience, etc. Aside from those who are opposed to carnivores killing and eating prey, I assume most people would not object to this type of research. Bringing the animals into the laboratory gives us much more control over the interactions. First, I can control the predator making sure that it is hungry my depriving it of food for a specified period, making sure that it is not approaching a molt, etc. If it doesn't attack the octopus, I know that it is not simply avoiding the blue-ring because it isn't hungry. It is also easier to control the size relationship between the two and to assay the blue-ring to determine how much TTX it contains and/or delivers. (The former is done through chemical analysis; the later by giving the octopus a live grass shrimp, waiting a prescribed period after the initial attack, removing the shrimp and analyzing it to see how much TTX it contains.)
While the intereaction was staged, it was done in a very large tank (200 gal) with lots of rock into which the participants could escape. The stomatopod did have a pvc burrow, but it would have an even better one in the field.
When I presented the blue-ring to the stomatopod, I expected one of three outcomes. Most likely I thought, the stomatopod would flee or simply ignore the octopus. If so, I was interested to see if the blue-ring would also flee, do nothing, or attack (but these are different questions from what I was primarily interested in.) Alternatively, the stomatopod could attack driving off or killing the blue-ring. The third alternative, which I did not expect, was that the stomatopod would kill and eat the blue-ring.
So where do you start exploring such a question. I would prefer to make my initial observations in the field watching blue-rings and stomatopods interact, but such observations are extremely difficult and even if you are persistent and patient enough to see a few encounters, you have little control over the participants, their size, physiology, motivation, experience, etc. Aside from those who are opposed to carnivores killing and eating prey, I assume most people would not object to this type of research. Bringing the animals into the laboratory gives us much more control over the interactions. First, I can control the predator making sure that it is hungry my depriving it of food for a specified period, making sure that it is not approaching a molt, etc. If it doesn't attack the octopus, I know that it is not simply avoiding the blue-ring because it isn't hungry. It is also easier to control the size relationship between the two and to assay the blue-ring to determine how much TTX it contains and/or delivers. (The former is done through chemical analysis; the later by giving the octopus a live grass shrimp, waiting a prescribed period after the initial attack, removing the shrimp and analyzing it to see how much TTX it contains.)
While the intereaction was staged, it was done in a very large tank (200 gal) with lots of rock into which the participants could escape. The stomatopod did have a pvc burrow, but it would have an even better one in the field.
When I presented the blue-ring to the stomatopod, I expected one of three outcomes. Most likely I thought, the stomatopod would flee or simply ignore the octopus. If so, I was interested to see if the blue-ring would also flee, do nothing, or attack (but these are different questions from what I was primarily interested in.) Alternatively, the stomatopod could attack driving off or killing the blue-ring. The third alternative, which I did not expect, was that the stomatopod would kill and eat the blue-ring.
texasmetal
Active Member
As you saw, the later happened. What you did not see was that the stomatopod continued to pound the octopus for about 25 minutes, long after it was initially disabled, and then killed. Several times during this period, the stomatopod appeared to sample the octopus, jumped back and extensively cleaned its mouth parts. Finally, it ate the entire corpse. We watched the stomatopod for several days and it seemed no worse for the meal. When offered another blue-ring, it also attacked and ate it suggesting that it had not learned to avoid them. In fact, there seemed to be no reason to.
What is interesting here is the behavior of the predator. I've watched stomatopods kill and eat other species of octopus and I had never seen this extended period of processing. This suggested to me that the O. scyllarus was mechanically removing the TTX containing venom from the dead blue-ring by repeatedly pounding and manipulating it. Of course there also remains the possibility that some stomatopods such as O. scyllarus have evolved resistance to TTX, perhaps by modification of their sodium channels as has occurred in garter snake populations that prey on TTX containing newts. We are indeed conducting the obvious experiments of feeding predators pieces of shrimp injected with TTX, injecting TTX directly into stomatopods, etc. However, to test the mechanical processing hypothesis, we have to measure the TTX contained in a prey animal before and after a stomatopod has processed it. Further questions would then consider whether the processing behavior is learned or innate, what happens as the size of the prey approaches that of the prey, are small O. scyllarus resistant to attacks by predatory blue-rings, etc. If it turns out that O. scyllarus are resistant to TTX, then we would like to know if this occurs in other species that occur with or do not occur with blue-rings.
I see this as a legitimate and ethical line of research. Clearly there are issues related to any research involving predator - prey relationships. We try to minimize the number of animals used and certainly try to avoid threatened species, etc. However, often the question dictates what species are used. In this case, it happens to be blue-rings - not because they are "beautiful", but because they contain TTX and have what appears to be aposomatic coloration and we would like to understand how such systems coevolve and function.
I do not stage "---- fights" to satisfy my own or anyone else’s desire to be titillated. I have advised on various nature films that may have included fighting and predation sequences, but in that context neither I or my science have been attacked. In fact some of the same people who seem so affended by this sequence have praised those very films.
What is interesting here is the behavior of the predator. I've watched stomatopods kill and eat other species of octopus and I had never seen this extended period of processing. This suggested to me that the O. scyllarus was mechanically removing the TTX containing venom from the dead blue-ring by repeatedly pounding and manipulating it. Of course there also remains the possibility that some stomatopods such as O. scyllarus have evolved resistance to TTX, perhaps by modification of their sodium channels as has occurred in garter snake populations that prey on TTX containing newts. We are indeed conducting the obvious experiments of feeding predators pieces of shrimp injected with TTX, injecting TTX directly into stomatopods, etc. However, to test the mechanical processing hypothesis, we have to measure the TTX contained in a prey animal before and after a stomatopod has processed it. Further questions would then consider whether the processing behavior is learned or innate, what happens as the size of the prey approaches that of the prey, are small O. scyllarus resistant to attacks by predatory blue-rings, etc. If it turns out that O. scyllarus are resistant to TTX, then we would like to know if this occurs in other species that occur with or do not occur with blue-rings.
I see this as a legitimate and ethical line of research. Clearly there are issues related to any research involving predator - prey relationships. We try to minimize the number of animals used and certainly try to avoid threatened species, etc. However, often the question dictates what species are used. In this case, it happens to be blue-rings - not because they are "beautiful", but because they contain TTX and have what appears to be aposomatic coloration and we would like to understand how such systems coevolve and function.
I do not stage "---- fights" to satisfy my own or anyone else’s desire to be titillated. I have advised on various nature films that may have included fighting and predation sequences, but in that context neither I or my science have been attacked. In fact some of the same people who seem so affended by this sequence have praised those very films.
triggerz92
Member
That was insane, did the mantis eventually die from the bluering's toxins?