Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

santamonica

Member
Scrubbers and Cycling
Although it was not an original benefit, enough people have now cycled there tanks using only a scrubber that it is now the recommended way. This means no skimmer, and no waterchanges. What generally happens is that you don't get a "cycle" at all, and you can add livestock in just a few days, after double and triple checking to make sure there is zero ammonia and nitrite.
Cycling your tank has the purpose of letting the dead stuff "get out" of the rock. This stuff died because the rock was out of the water for too long during shipping, and is now forming ammonia. Well, the favorite food of algae is ammonia, and next comes nitrite, and then nitrate. So since the ammonia will be kept low during cycling, more of the natural inhabitants in the rock will survive because they are not being poisoned. Also, this extra time that the scrubber gets to develop during the cycling will allow the screen to be more ready for when you start stocking. You can then start feeding your tank heavier, sooner, since the algae will already be available to absorb a lot of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate. Growth on the screen, however, will be limited until you start feeding, because there is just not that much to filter during cycling, since a lot of the ammonia etc that develops during cycling is actually from animals that die during the cycling itself (because of high ammonia) and not from the shipping. So after you stock and start feeding, the screen will have much more growth. Usually takes just a few days to get all zero readings.
And you don't need to add anything to get a cycle going, either. Matter of fact, you don't want a cycle at all. A real "cycle" (meaning high ammonia readings) kills the things that were living in the "live" rock. The best situation would be to get a rock from the ocean and put it in your tank in 5 minutes. Everything would still be alive, and there would be no cycle at all. But the shipping process kills a lot, and when the dead stuff gets in your water, you get your cycle. So you certainly don't want to make more ammonia by adding anything to make it worse. Just let the scrubber eat the resulting ammonia, so that the water does not get any worse. A skimmer, amazingly, actually does more harm than good, because not only does it not remove any ammonia (which is what is killing the few things still living), it removes the living critters as they get out of the rock and start swimming around, before they can get back into the rock to hide.
 

santamonica

Member
Here is a super easy DIY nano tank that can easily be made at an acrylic or glass shop. You would want at least a 13 watt bulb no matter how small the nano:
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by SantaMonica
http:///forum/post/3269725
Scrubbers and Cycling
Cycling your tank has the purpose of letting the dead stuff "get out" of the rock. This stuff died because the rock was out of the water for too long during shipping, and is now forming ammonia. .
Ummm no. the purpose of cycling is to allow bacteria to colonize, to a level where it will be able to handle the waste of livestock without spiking and killing inhabitants. the process of "letting the dead stuff get out of the rock" as you put it is called curing live rock. and your algae scrubber doesnt actually use ammonia. so I have NO idea where you would warrant making a claim like this. maybe saying you can seed bacteria in your tank using an established screen or something like that, oh wait the LR comes with bacteria on it..... c'mon man you really gotta stop making this thing more than it is. Its algae, it consumes nitrates. the more you make up about it the harder it is to pick the facts out from the BS.
 

cranberry

Active Member
Algae loves ammonia. But I want the ammonia in my tank to feed the beneficial bacteria to boost up the numbers. I don't want the ammonia to get consumed by the algae... kind of defeats the whole point.
 

reefkprz

Active Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3271951
Algae loves ammonia. But I want the ammonia in my tank to feed the beneficial bacteria to boost up the numbers. I don't want the ammonia to get consumed by the algae... kind of defeats the whole point.
I stand corrected. algae does love ammonia.
but either way you get my point. curing live rock is definitely not cycling a tank. and consuming waste without allowing bacteria to colonize is not cycleing. I dont do "hard cycles" where I let my ammonia go nuts. santa's premise seems to be the only cycle is a hard cycle. I dont know if he noticed but most expirienced reefers reccomend soft cycles with low ammonia (below 0.5 at all times) to preserve the microfauna and macrofauna found on and in live rock. its not only about the bacteria. though that is the basics of a cycle. hard cycles have actually been proven to be detrimental where high enough ammonia levels kill off the bacteria we seek to colonize and the cycle is prolonged untill offgassing drops the level down low enough for bacteria to start to colonize.
 

santamonica

Member
expirienced reefers reccomend soft cycles with low ammonia (below 0.5 at all times) to preserve the microfauna and macrofauna found on and in live rock. its not only about the bacteria. though that is the basics of a cycle. hard cycles have actually been proven to be detrimental where high enough ammonia levels kill off the bacteria we seek to colonize and the cycle is prolonged untill offgassing drops the level down low enough for bacteria to start to colonize.
That's what I posted.
 

beaslbob

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Cranberry
http:///forum/post/3271951
Algae loves ammonia. But I want the ammonia in my tank to feed the beneficial bacteria to boost up the numbers. I don't want the ammonia to get consumed by the algae... kind of defeats the whole point.
But bacteria is still there and starts consuming the ammonia as well. So after a few weeks the algae runs out of ammonia and switches to consuming the nitrates. So what you get is a cycle with no ammonia/nitrIte spikes and an initial nitrate spike.
my .02
 

king_neptune

Active Member
Turned my scrubber back on. Been a week, nothing!
Brand new 65w PC's.
Water params are pretty darn good as usual, I am running a skimmer now so I expected reduced algae fromthe last time I ran my scrubber...but none at all?
It should be noted...the skimmer is producing little to nothing either. Lightly colored water is about it.
The only thing really different is my frugal feeding habits, and the tank has aged considerably since Ive last used my scrubber.
The foam wall by now is super saturated with beneficial bacteria. So what you think SM?
Mission accomplished, and scrubber can now be relied on as a backup means of filtration?
Or am I possibly overlooking something?
PH=8.0
Amonia=0
Trites=0
Trates=5
I was hoping that by turning on the scrubber I could bring the trates down to 0 as well(afterall thats what it used to be 4 months ago).
But a week later, not even light green on the screen.
 

cranberry

Active Member
Originally Posted by beaslbob
http:///forum/post/3272189
But bacteria is still there and starts consuming the ammonia as well. So after a few weeks the algae runs out of ammonia and switches to consuming the nitrates. So what you get is a cycle with no ammonia/nitrIte spikes and an initial nitrate spike.
my .02
When I pay for my algae, I like to wait until it's a stable environment before I put in it. Just because macro likes ammonia, doesn't mean it likes unstable water parameters, like pH, which occur during a cycle. Not even all macros can withstand a cycle. Some are more tolerant of others.
 
J

jstdv8

Guest
mine is about 5 weeks in and Im not getting any green, just redish stuff. Seems to be working though both my phospahtes and nitrates are undetectable for the first time ever as of 2 weeks ago. Can't wait till its actually producing the thick stuff like you show in your pictures.
In defense of the scrubber I started it out with sub par lighting and twice my stupid design had the pump too close and it fell off leaving the screen unwatered for a few hours each time. So im sure both of those things factor into my screen not producing much yet.
 

king_neptune

Active Member
I just checked today, its now a red film, usually I get a nice green film to start out with.
And its still coming slower than usual. Any ideas SM?
 

santamonica

Member
Cranberry you need to change the screen to roughed up plastic canvas. The old version with the thick growth had bald spots; those are the spots that the screen let go of the algae. Roughed up plastic canvas will not do this. Fix this first.

 

6stokes

Member
Where can one find the plastic canvas like SM is showing in the pics? I have checked all the local hardware stores and can't seem to find anything like it. I was using the tank divider until SM told me to get rid of it and now I have some regular plastic screen like for a window. It seems to be working fine (way better than the tank divider), but I like how rigid the plastic in the pics looks. Regular window screen is pretty flimsy.
 

santamonica

Member
Try going to craft or sewing stores, or just get one of these online:
http://www.everythingplasticcanvas.c...h-12-x-18.aspx
Many people ask about using the fiberglass screen from their windows (never use metal!). The main problem of this kind of "soft" screen will be getting it into the slot in the waterfall pipe; it will bend and fold too much. And sometimes window screen has mildew repellents, so be careful.
Some people try to use acrylic or plastic sheet. They will grow, but the problem is that when you clean it, everything comes off and you have to start growing from scratch again. This means you get three or four days of zero filtering. You can try drilling hundreds of small holes in the sheet, but it's easier to just find a screen. Or you could cover the acrylic with screen.
 
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