Miracle mud in a media bag?

coderad

Member
I bought a used sump and I want to make it in to a fuge. I have decided on the mirical mud with some Caulerpa. But looking at my sump I don't know if I can just have a mud bed it might have to be in a media bag, or it will get sucked into the tank.
How will that work with the Caulerpa?
or will it be fine just leaving the mud bed?
This is they style of sump "Amiracle Slim-Line Wet-Dry"
{Edit Link}
 

ophiura

Active Member
Could you post a picture of the sump, instead of the link? Thanks!
No, you can't put miracle mud in a bag. It has to be the bed. But, IMO, just a regular sand bed is just as effective. I personally would not spend the money on the "miracle" mud.
 

yupi1982

Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
Could you post a picture of the sump, instead of the link? Thanks!
No, you can't put miracle mud in a bag. It has to be the bed. But, IMO, just a regular sand bed is just as effective. I personally would not spend the money on the "miracle" mud.
why.....is it not that good OPHIURA!!!
because i have miracle mud in my refiugium.....cuz if is bad i take it out right away!!!
 

ophiura

Active Member
There are many threads on miracle mud and my opinions on it. I believe it is highly overpriced terrestrial "dirt" for lack of a better word, with high iron content. The same, or better, effect can be obtained with a refugium with a deep sand bed.
For other information, google "Borneman Miracle Mud" and some things should come up.
There is no "miracle" in this hobby. No one will explain what that substrate is. They charge an arm and a leg, and then suggest other additives, etc. Equally effective results can be obtained with far less investment, and far less risk, IMO.
 

yupi1982

Member
Originally Posted by ophiura
There are many threads on miracle mud and my opinions on it. I believe it is highly overpriced terrestrial "dirt" for lack of a better word, with high iron content. The same, or better, effect can be obtained with a refugium with a deep sand bed.
For other information, google "Borneman Miracle Mud" and some things should come up.
There is no "miracle" in this hobby. No one will explain what that substrate is. They charge an arm and a leg, and then suggest other additives, etc. Equally effective results can be obtained with far less investment, and far less risk, IMO.
hummmmm interesting......but how do u get to put the plants in the sand !!!!
anyways AWESOME INFO thanks ophiura !!! :cheer:
 

miaheatlvr

Active Member
Originally Posted by yupi1982
hummmmm interesting......but how do u get to put the plants in the sand !!!!
anyways AWESOME INFO thanks ophiura !!! :cheer:
I strongly DISAGREE with Ophiura, read customer feedback and scientific experiments and data on miracle mud {Edit - please just google miracle mud} it contains minerals and trace elements definately not found in water changes or addiditves or especiall LS. But judge for yourself!
 

stanlalee

Active Member
Originally Posted by MiaHeatLvr
I strongly DISAGREE with Ophiura, read customer feedback and scientific experiments and data on miracle mud {EDIT LINK} it contains minerals and trace elements definately not found in water changes or addiditves or especiall LS. But judge for yourself!
I sure would like to know a) how you know it contains mineral and trace elements not found in water changes when they wont reveal the formula and claim its a trade secret? and b) how you know they are useful/helpful even if you do know the contents of their mud? Most salt manufacturers dont list the majority of trace elements found in their formulas as well. Miracle mud isn't the only refugium substrate that claims to release and replenish trace elements. Kent bio sediment and Refugium mineral mud come to mind (although the later is even more $$ than miracle mud per lb).
I dont see how you can measure the value of such products to begin with. either you buy into the theory and/or sales pitch or you dont. Its worth it to those who believe it is and isn't to those who dont.
I read the testemonials and research pages and found claims of what it did but no where did I see how or what in it that did whatever it was they claimed. didn't find any remarkable reading.
 

ophiura

Active Member
Eric Borneman, noted coral pro, on Miracle Mud:
Let it be known officially that I strongly dislike the system - not so much that it works or doesn't (because almost anything can be made to work), but that those marketing it, making it, using it, and reviewing it have, to my knowledge, very little inkling of any of the issues surrounding it - and to me, that makes a sham, par excellence. One didn't need to know the composition of this substrate to make some very accurate suggestions about its use - as I think I did several years ago in a FAMA article called "Demystifying Mud."
Of course, my response here is hypothetical to your well pointed question and also hypothetical in that I have never used Magic Mud - nor do I plan to use it. The high iron content is obviously indicative, as we all well knew, of a terrigenous sediment. So the algae he uses (also a weak point using Caulerpa) grow well. The nitrates being produced by the bioballs similarly fuel algae growth. Mud, by definition, is a mixture of sediments classified by size and organic content. The organic component, being once living biomass, contains higher amounts of nitrogen and phsophorous...also encouraging algae growth. Eventually, this organic component will be used up, requiring more to be purchased all to the $$$ of the company and its suckers...err...customers. That, or you'll have a mixed siliciclastic sediment similar to putting playsand in the refugium. Why would you add more organic content to a closed system that, as a rule, is already magnitudes of order higher in organics, necessitating the use of skimmers and carbons to deal with it? I dunno. The reason its effective? Because you have a microbially productive sediment community, similar to carbonate muds in lagoons and seagrass areas. You have uptake via, admittedly lame, macroalgae. Sure it works. So does the same principle using sand, and probably more effectively in the long term. After all, if coral reefs thrived with high terrigenous inputs, you wouldn't see the amount of study being done to look at the effects of terrestrial nutrients and sediment loads degrading reefs worldwide. Duh.
The result to corals and zoox? Probably in most species, higher linear extension of a less dense skeleton, lower rates of calcification, and higher densities of zooxanthellae...possibly too high considering the light levels some expose them to, possibly lowering bleaching thresholds artificially.

Please note that I too have never and will never use this stuff. I suspect it is basically laterite, a great freshwater substrate, which would not be found on a reef. There are MANY effective ways to run a refugium, many with similar results (but no "testimonials"). Cheaper, as effective...possibly more natural. IMO, that is the way to go. I am cheap
If you like it, so be it. But I DO NOT want people thinking it is a "miracle" and will get them out of a bind, or that it is in any way necessary to running an effective system.
 

miaheatlvr

Active Member
Originally Posted by Stanlalee
I sure would like to know a) how you know it contains mineral and trace elements not found in water changes when they wont reveal the formula and claim its a trade secret? and b) how you know they are useful/helpful even if you do know the contents of their mud? Most salt manufacturers dont list the majority of trace elements found in their formulas as well. Miracle mud isn't the only refugium substrate that claims to release and replenish trace elements. Kent bio sediment and Refugium mineral mud come to mind (although the later is even more $$ than miracle mud per lb).
I dont see how you can measure the value of such products to begin with. either you buy into the theory and/or sales pitch or you dont. Its worth it to those who believe it is and isn't to those who dont.
I read the testemonials and research pages and found claims of what it did but no where did I see how or what in it that did whatever it was they claimed. didn't find any remarkable reading.
Did you not read, the testimonials, research and develpment and articles, the owner of my favorite fish store here swears by it! And i dont think he is getting a kickback for promoting this product. He runs an exceptional store! and has been in the hobby for 30yrs! I trust him, "I am not saying get this product or else" But what I am saying I am having success with this product and I like this product and it works FOR ME! nuff said!
 

ophiura

Active Member
As an aside, for the sump...yeah, could have problems. I would probably run it by the DIY forum to see if they have suggested alterations.
 

stanlalee

Active Member
Originally Posted by MiaHeatLvr
Did you not read, the testimonials, research and develpment and articles, the owner of my favorite fish store here swears by it! And i dont think he is getting a kickback for promoting this product. He runs an exceptional store! and has been in the hobby for 30yrs! I trust him, "I am not saying get this product or else" But what I am saying I am having success with this product and I like this product and it works FOR ME! nuff said!
yes and the research and develepment section didn't have anything close to a "real" research article or a comparison of direct results of their system vs the berlin method showing data that theirs is superior. All I read added up to what amounts to a Russ Witney real estate type informmercial (sp?)
I'm not saying it doesn't work or works or I like it or dislike it. I'm just saying a) nobody really knows what its made of hence why this dirt is so expensive b) a refugium set up with protein skimmer, sand and cheato works, whats there to convince me to make a change?
 
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