missing thread??
- Thread starter kablamo
- Start date
kablamo
Member
Sorry it took so long to reply I forgot I took the batteries out of my wireless keyboard.
First of all the Avatar is Kikuchi Hideaki from The Yellow Monkey.
http://www.projectj.net/tym.htm
Secondly I really want to know what got the thread closed.
Thirdly it was some form of enlightenment, as I was merely looking at the world without thoughts clouding my perception, and when nothing has a name or a purpose it's the most beautiful thing you've ever seen.
Some times intense meditation will bring me to this state.
I really wish they would have just locked it, I was going to save a lot of the stuff I wrote on that thread because I really liked some of it, especially my discription of my experience!
First of all the Avatar is Kikuchi Hideaki from The Yellow Monkey.
http://www.projectj.net/tym.htm
Secondly I really want to know what got the thread closed.
Thirdly it was some form of enlightenment, as I was merely looking at the world without thoughts clouding my perception, and when nothing has a name or a purpose it's the most beautiful thing you've ever seen.
Some times intense meditation will bring me to this state.
I really wish they would have just locked it, I was going to save a lot of the stuff I wrote on that thread because I really liked some of it, especially my discription of my experience!
hagfish
Active Member
Originally Posted by Kablamo
Sorry it took so long to reply I forgot I took the batteries out of my wireless keyboard.
First of all the Avatar is Kikuchi Hideaki from The Yellow Monkey.
http://www.projectj.net/tym.htm
Secondly I really want to know what got the thread closed.
Thirdly it was some form of enlightenment, as I was merely looking at the world without thoughts clouding my perception, and when nothing has a name or a purpose it's the most beautiful thing you've ever seen.
Some times intense meditation will bring me to this state.
I really wish they would have just locked it, I was going to save a lot of the stuff I wrote on that thread because I really liked some of it, especially my discription of my experience!
Since you said you wanted to keep what you typed about your experience...
I opened my eyes and I was half awake and half dreaming still. I could
see my dreams on the ceiling if you know what I mean. I had had a
tooth pulled and had not done any drugs, because I know i will be accused
after I tell you this., and I looked around and was thinking how
incredibly transparent everything here was, and I had an overwhelming sense of
unity with everything around me, and as I kept thinking about it, I
became the bed, I became the room, I became all of what was around me and
I was filled with incredible warmth and there was light! light of all
shades slowly turning from a blinding white to yellow to orange to red
to purple to blue to black and then a sound came, almost too high to
hear, and it went down in tone slowly and was roaring like a jet and then
figures began to appear all around me and they were danceing and
shining with billions of colors and light and sounds. As I lay there
transfixed on these things, i noticed that each figure had numerous figures
within it, though I thought the original figures were the main figures,
they were not so at all, but just a part of a bigger pictures, and
things slowly settled down and i realized that everything I had seen was my
surroundings, the clock on my desk, the fan on the ceiling, the bed I
was laying on, only because the constant chatter in my brain had
quieted, I had not given any of the objects names, and they were reality. I
may be getting a little deep by now, this experience was almost
impossible to describe.
The funny thing is, the moment I realized what these objects
surrounding me were, the experience vanished and I was just in my room.
That just happened to be in my notification email about the continuation of the thread.
I notice that sometimes you talk about God (Jehovah and Jesus) and the actions that took place in the Bible as if you believe that they took place. Is that what you believe, that there are facts there, but you disagree with the message or something? Could you explain? Here is another quote relating to this that I have from that same email that I got the above quote from...
I have heard a few people say that when I have kids I will get it, or
something equally asinine. The fact is, I DO have kids, and I treat
them much better than the Jehovah treated his "children".
Sorry it took so long to reply I forgot I took the batteries out of my wireless keyboard.
First of all the Avatar is Kikuchi Hideaki from The Yellow Monkey.
http://www.projectj.net/tym.htm
Secondly I really want to know what got the thread closed.
Thirdly it was some form of enlightenment, as I was merely looking at the world without thoughts clouding my perception, and when nothing has a name or a purpose it's the most beautiful thing you've ever seen.
Some times intense meditation will bring me to this state.
I really wish they would have just locked it, I was going to save a lot of the stuff I wrote on that thread because I really liked some of it, especially my discription of my experience!
Since you said you wanted to keep what you typed about your experience...
I opened my eyes and I was half awake and half dreaming still. I could
see my dreams on the ceiling if you know what I mean. I had had a
tooth pulled and had not done any drugs, because I know i will be accused
after I tell you this., and I looked around and was thinking how
incredibly transparent everything here was, and I had an overwhelming sense of
unity with everything around me, and as I kept thinking about it, I
became the bed, I became the room, I became all of what was around me and
I was filled with incredible warmth and there was light! light of all
shades slowly turning from a blinding white to yellow to orange to red
to purple to blue to black and then a sound came, almost too high to
hear, and it went down in tone slowly and was roaring like a jet and then
figures began to appear all around me and they were danceing and
shining with billions of colors and light and sounds. As I lay there
transfixed on these things, i noticed that each figure had numerous figures
within it, though I thought the original figures were the main figures,
they were not so at all, but just a part of a bigger pictures, and
things slowly settled down and i realized that everything I had seen was my
surroundings, the clock on my desk, the fan on the ceiling, the bed I
was laying on, only because the constant chatter in my brain had
quieted, I had not given any of the objects names, and they were reality. I
may be getting a little deep by now, this experience was almost
impossible to describe.
The funny thing is, the moment I realized what these objects
surrounding me were, the experience vanished and I was just in my room.
That just happened to be in my notification email about the continuation of the thread.
I notice that sometimes you talk about God (Jehovah and Jesus) and the actions that took place in the Bible as if you believe that they took place. Is that what you believe, that there are facts there, but you disagree with the message or something? Could you explain? Here is another quote relating to this that I have from that same email that I got the above quote from...
I have heard a few people say that when I have kids I will get it, or
something equally asinine. The fact is, I DO have kids, and I treat
them much better than the Jehovah treated his "children".
hagfish
Active Member
A couple things here...
You mention almost being asleep. Any chance you actually fell asleep and were just dreaming? Like I said, I've had a somewhat similar dream.
Another thing. The Dali Lamma (probably mispelled, and I know you said your not actually buddist) himself was on some religious special recently and said he has never achieved enlightenment. And he is putting his whole life into achieving that. I can't remember exactly how he put it with others, but it seems like he doesn't know of many, if any who have. So given that you weren't even seeking it, it seems unlikely to have been genuine IMO.
You mention almost being asleep. Any chance you actually fell asleep and were just dreaming? Like I said, I've had a somewhat similar dream.
Another thing. The Dali Lamma (probably mispelled, and I know you said your not actually buddist) himself was on some religious special recently and said he has never achieved enlightenment. And he is putting his whole life into achieving that. I can't remember exactly how he put it with others, but it seems like he doesn't know of many, if any who have. So given that you weren't even seeking it, it seems unlikely to have been genuine IMO.
kablamo
Member
Well that's the thing isn't it? Enlightement isn't obtained by seeking it, nor is it obtained by not seeking it. From what I've read, the harder you chase it, the harder it runs, it's almost as if you have to just bump into it with no warning. Kinda like quitting smoking and making a big ordeal out of it makes it more difficult then just not smoking anymore, because you KNOW you are quitting.
It's considered a gift, or an act of grace. And, I tried to grab on to it, by trying to understand the experience and it disappeared as soon as I clutched it in the hand of my mind like water. It wasn't true Nirvana, because that's supposed to stay with you. It was more like I got to peek behind the curtain of reality for a second, just barely long enough to see how it all works and when i realized thats what it was it was gone.
No, I wasn't asleep, as I was sitting up in my bed.
Oh, and about the me treating my kids better than Jehovah.
Jehovah never treated the israelites like children, he treated them like slaves. Slaves that were commanded to love him. If they disrespected his judgements, boom, the egyptians got some new slaves. After a while they were freed, and boom, they messed up again, now they are the slaves of the babylonians. He only protected them when they upheld their end of the bargain.
And the way I talk about god, well, I will never be able to prove to a christian that there is no "father" type god who's all powerful who's own personal attributes defy his own existance, because a christian KNOWS that there is a god, they KNOW all of these things are FACTUAL and not just probable or even possible.
You also can't convince a flat-earthist that the world is round because "Just look at it! Looks flat to me!" They know the earth is flat.
So what you have to do is operate on the assumptions of their beliefs and you say, "Hey, lets go look over the edge, wouldn't that be fun?"
So you go due west upon longitude 40 or whatever and you end up in the same spot!
At that point he knows that the world is at least cylindrical.
It's like the poet William Blake said, "The fool who persists in his folley will become wise."
If I make an arguement against the bible that the tenents of which state that the bible is false, well I'm riding a sinking ship because my arguement automatically is false in a christians eyes, but If i perform a Reductio Ad Absurdum based on the acts of the bible being true maybe some of you will come to your own conclusions, just like the man who was shown around the world.
It's considered a gift, or an act of grace. And, I tried to grab on to it, by trying to understand the experience and it disappeared as soon as I clutched it in the hand of my mind like water. It wasn't true Nirvana, because that's supposed to stay with you. It was more like I got to peek behind the curtain of reality for a second, just barely long enough to see how it all works and when i realized thats what it was it was gone.
No, I wasn't asleep, as I was sitting up in my bed.
Oh, and about the me treating my kids better than Jehovah.
Jehovah never treated the israelites like children, he treated them like slaves. Slaves that were commanded to love him. If they disrespected his judgements, boom, the egyptians got some new slaves. After a while they were freed, and boom, they messed up again, now they are the slaves of the babylonians. He only protected them when they upheld their end of the bargain.
And the way I talk about god, well, I will never be able to prove to a christian that there is no "father" type god who's all powerful who's own personal attributes defy his own existance, because a christian KNOWS that there is a god, they KNOW all of these things are FACTUAL and not just probable or even possible.
You also can't convince a flat-earthist that the world is round because "Just look at it! Looks flat to me!" They know the earth is flat.
So what you have to do is operate on the assumptions of their beliefs and you say, "Hey, lets go look over the edge, wouldn't that be fun?"
So you go due west upon longitude 40 or whatever and you end up in the same spot!
At that point he knows that the world is at least cylindrical.
It's like the poet William Blake said, "The fool who persists in his folley will become wise."
If I make an arguement against the bible that the tenents of which state that the bible is false, well I'm riding a sinking ship because my arguement automatically is false in a christians eyes, but If i perform a Reductio Ad Absurdum based on the acts of the bible being true maybe some of you will come to your own conclusions, just like the man who was shown around the world.
hagfish
Active Member
One more thing. You made it sound before like the experience you mentioned was the sole reason you left Christianity. Is that true? Or were there other circumstances that made you not believe in Christianity.
Also, would you say that you were a Christian at some point? And I don't mean someone who goes to church, but someone who had prayed the sinners prayer, asked Jesus into your life, and repented of your sins?
Also, would you say that you were a Christian at some point? And I don't mean someone who goes to church, but someone who had prayed the sinners prayer, asked Jesus into your life, and repented of your sins?
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Kablamo
Oh, and about the me treating my kids better than Jehovah.
Jehovah never treated the israelites like children, he treated them like slaves. Slaves that were commanded to love him. If they disrespected his judgements, boom, the egyptians got some new slaves. After a while they were freed, and boom, they messed up again, now they are the slaves of the babylonians. He only protected them when they upheld their end of the bargain.
Kablamo... that's not accurate... and if you've studied the OT as you say then you know that.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
It's like the poet William Blake said, "The fool who persists in his folley will become wise."
Or, like Paul said, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." I Cor 1:18
Oh, and about the me treating my kids better than Jehovah.
Jehovah never treated the israelites like children, he treated them like slaves. Slaves that were commanded to love him. If they disrespected his judgements, boom, the egyptians got some new slaves. After a while they were freed, and boom, they messed up again, now they are the slaves of the babylonians. He only protected them when they upheld their end of the bargain.
Kablamo... that's not accurate... and if you've studied the OT as you say then you know that.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
It's like the poet William Blake said, "The fool who persists in his folley will become wise."
Or, like Paul said, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." I Cor 1:18
kablamo
Member
Of course I was a christian. I repented and cried at more church camps I can count. Prayed the sinners prayer, even led others to jesus.
I kinda feel bad for some of the people I have trapped...
The reason I am not a christian, well, that experience instantly devalidified my entire perception of reality, such as the illusion of the war between good and evil, my aversion to the negative side of life, and the fantasy that our concious existance as humans and as souls or spirits last forever.
See, I looked around me with open eyes for the first time that day. Solid is very important, but without space, what is the point of solid? Without space you cannot even have solid, you cannot define solid because space is the frame in which solid is mounted upon, and the same is true vice versa, just as evil is to good, and just as life is to death.
Life in the abrahamic viewpoint lasts forever through eternity, but with no true death there is no true life. How do you know you are alive and you are concious if there was no unconcious? Every thing in the universe behaves this way.
People might say that the clay that makes the pot is the most important part of a pot, but I know, that the emptyness is what makes the pot useful,
That is why you must empty your mind of all opinions, thoughts, and ideas in order to TRUELY realize it's full potential. You must realize the unity of everything! Space and solid are NOT opposites! They are the two faces of one reality. Just like Silent and deafening, black and white, up and down, soft and hard! This can only be done if you TRUELY have faith! Have faith in your intellect and stop being useless puppets!
You cannot have heaven, and likewise, you cannot have hell, unless you are willing to admit that they are the same thing.
So, all of these thoughts kept bothering me for a while because I was still afraid for my soul because of this newborn wisdom I had somehow gotten.
Then I read a verse in paul,
"Test everything; hold fast to that which is good."
Well, I did that, and now I am holding fast of that which is good.
I kinda feel bad for some of the people I have trapped...
The reason I am not a christian, well, that experience instantly devalidified my entire perception of reality, such as the illusion of the war between good and evil, my aversion to the negative side of life, and the fantasy that our concious existance as humans and as souls or spirits last forever.
See, I looked around me with open eyes for the first time that day. Solid is very important, but without space, what is the point of solid? Without space you cannot even have solid, you cannot define solid because space is the frame in which solid is mounted upon, and the same is true vice versa, just as evil is to good, and just as life is to death.
Life in the abrahamic viewpoint lasts forever through eternity, but with no true death there is no true life. How do you know you are alive and you are concious if there was no unconcious? Every thing in the universe behaves this way.
People might say that the clay that makes the pot is the most important part of a pot, but I know, that the emptyness is what makes the pot useful,
That is why you must empty your mind of all opinions, thoughts, and ideas in order to TRUELY realize it's full potential. You must realize the unity of everything! Space and solid are NOT opposites! They are the two faces of one reality. Just like Silent and deafening, black and white, up and down, soft and hard! This can only be done if you TRUELY have faith! Have faith in your intellect and stop being useless puppets!
You cannot have heaven, and likewise, you cannot have hell, unless you are willing to admit that they are the same thing.
So, all of these thoughts kept bothering me for a while because I was still afraid for my soul because of this newborn wisdom I had somehow gotten.
Then I read a verse in paul,
"Test everything; hold fast to that which is good."
Well, I did that, and now I am holding fast of that which is good.
kablamo
Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Or, like Paul said, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." I Cor 1:18
Or like Lao Tzu said,
Tao Te Ching 41.1-4
"The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it diligently.
The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.
The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.
If there were no laughter, It would not be the Tao."
Or, like Paul said, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." I Cor 1:18
Or like Lao Tzu said,
Tao Te Ching 41.1-4
"The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it diligently.
The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again.
The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud.
If there were no laughter, It would not be the Tao."
1journeyman
Active Member
Originally Posted by Kablamo
...You cannot have heaven, and likewise, you cannot have hell, unless you are willing to admit that they are the same thing...
"Test everything; hold fast to that which is good."
Well, I did that, and now I am holding fast of that which is good.
Sorry Kablamo. That sounds neat and all, but it makes no sense. According to your own words there is no "good". That's nonsense; Furthermore, the Bible is a complete book. You can't quote part of it without taking it all for truth.
Try telling a rock that it only exists because of the space around it. You can wax poetically all day long; at the end of the day the rock is still going to be there.
We live in a world full of absolutes. If there is no difference between life and death why do you get up in the morning? Why eat? Why sleep? After all, sleep only has relevance is you are awake....
Lastly, how can I be a puppet? If God doesn't exist who's pulling the strings?
...You cannot have heaven, and likewise, you cannot have hell, unless you are willing to admit that they are the same thing...
"Test everything; hold fast to that which is good."
Well, I did that, and now I am holding fast of that which is good.
Sorry Kablamo. That sounds neat and all, but it makes no sense. According to your own words there is no "good". That's nonsense; Furthermore, the Bible is a complete book. You can't quote part of it without taking it all for truth.
Try telling a rock that it only exists because of the space around it. You can wax poetically all day long; at the end of the day the rock is still going to be there.
We live in a world full of absolutes. If there is no difference between life and death why do you get up in the morning? Why eat? Why sleep? After all, sleep only has relevance is you are awake....
Lastly, how can I be a puppet? If God doesn't exist who's pulling the strings?
hagfish
Active Member
Originally Posted by Kablamo
"Test everything; hold fast to that which is good."
Well, I did that, and now I am holding fast of that which is good.
See, you're doing it again. You are taking some scripture and applying it to your life. But then you'll tell us there is no God. And you talk about God as if you are angry for the things he's done to the Jews (which you have largely misquoted and taken out of context), but then you don't believe in God. Or maybe you believe He exists, you just don't like Him. It's not clear to me.
You say you've read the Bible many times and that you "get the jist of it". I'm sorry, but you have quoted it many times and haven't interpretted hardly any of it correctly. I'm not trying to be some blind idiot believer either. I'm reading a paragraph and figuring out what it means and it is just not what you are saying it means. Others have pointed this out as well.
The quote above is another example. "That which is good" is the Word of God. He's saying to test what you experience to see if the experience is in sync with the Bible. If it is not, then it is worldly and probably has some hint of the devil in it.
"Test everything; hold fast to that which is good."
Well, I did that, and now I am holding fast of that which is good.
See, you're doing it again. You are taking some scripture and applying it to your life. But then you'll tell us there is no God. And you talk about God as if you are angry for the things he's done to the Jews (which you have largely misquoted and taken out of context), but then you don't believe in God. Or maybe you believe He exists, you just don't like Him. It's not clear to me.
You say you've read the Bible many times and that you "get the jist of it". I'm sorry, but you have quoted it many times and haven't interpretted hardly any of it correctly. I'm not trying to be some blind idiot believer either. I'm reading a paragraph and figuring out what it means and it is just not what you are saying it means. Others have pointed this out as well.
The quote above is another example. "That which is good" is the Word of God. He's saying to test what you experience to see if the experience is in sync with the Bible. If it is not, then it is worldly and probably has some hint of the devil in it.
hagfish
Active Member
Originally Posted by Kablamo
Of course I was a christian. I repented and cried at more church camps I can count. Prayed the sinners prayer, even led others to jesus.
I kinda feel bad for some of the people I have trapped...
The reason I am not a christian, well, that experience instantly devalidified my entire perception of reality, such as the illusion of the war between good and evil, my aversion to the negative side of life, and the fantasy that our concious existance as humans and as souls or spirits last forever.
So this statement makes it sound like that single moment changed you from being a Christian. I honestly don't see how this could "devalify your perception of reality" to such a degree. How can you truly explain what you saw? I don't see how any of your conclusions based on what you saw are anything more than assumptions that can hardly be anything more than best guesses. As someone who was so interested in the scientific side of this conversation before I'm curious to hear the science behind such an experience.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
See, I looked around me with open eyes for the first time that day. Solid is very important, but without space, what is the point of solid? Without space you cannot even have solid, you cannot define solid because space is the frame in which solid is mounted upon, and the same is true vice versa, just as evil is to good, and just as life is to death.
Life in the abrahamic viewpoint lasts forever through eternity, but with no true death there is no true life. How do you know you are alive and you are concious if there was no unconcious? Every thing in the universe behaves this way.
People might say that the clay that makes the pot is the most important part of a pot, but I know, that the emptyness is what makes the pot useful,
That is why you must empty your mind of all opinions, thoughts, and ideas in order to TRUELY realize it's full potential. You must realize the unity of everything! Space and solid are NOT opposites! They are the two faces of one reality. Just like Silent and deafening, black and white, up and down, soft and hard! This can only be done if you TRUELY have faith! Have faith in your intellect and stop being useless puppets!
How do you come up with an inabilbity to define things with your circular reasoning? These things you are coming up with do nothing to suggest that there is no God. It's just philosiphy that is really somewhat useless. The fact is, we have solids, we have evil, we have death. What does your reasoning really tell us? None of these philiosiphies do anything to suggest that there is no God. They really only ask a deeper question of why things exist, but with no answer.
Of course I was a christian. I repented and cried at more church camps I can count. Prayed the sinners prayer, even led others to jesus.
I kinda feel bad for some of the people I have trapped...
The reason I am not a christian, well, that experience instantly devalidified my entire perception of reality, such as the illusion of the war between good and evil, my aversion to the negative side of life, and the fantasy that our concious existance as humans and as souls or spirits last forever.
So this statement makes it sound like that single moment changed you from being a Christian. I honestly don't see how this could "devalify your perception of reality" to such a degree. How can you truly explain what you saw? I don't see how any of your conclusions based on what you saw are anything more than assumptions that can hardly be anything more than best guesses. As someone who was so interested in the scientific side of this conversation before I'm curious to hear the science behind such an experience.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
See, I looked around me with open eyes for the first time that day. Solid is very important, but without space, what is the point of solid? Without space you cannot even have solid, you cannot define solid because space is the frame in which solid is mounted upon, and the same is true vice versa, just as evil is to good, and just as life is to death.
Life in the abrahamic viewpoint lasts forever through eternity, but with no true death there is no true life. How do you know you are alive and you are concious if there was no unconcious? Every thing in the universe behaves this way.
People might say that the clay that makes the pot is the most important part of a pot, but I know, that the emptyness is what makes the pot useful,
That is why you must empty your mind of all opinions, thoughts, and ideas in order to TRUELY realize it's full potential. You must realize the unity of everything! Space and solid are NOT opposites! They are the two faces of one reality. Just like Silent and deafening, black and white, up and down, soft and hard! This can only be done if you TRUELY have faith! Have faith in your intellect and stop being useless puppets!
How do you come up with an inabilbity to define things with your circular reasoning? These things you are coming up with do nothing to suggest that there is no God. It's just philosiphy that is really somewhat useless. The fact is, we have solids, we have evil, we have death. What does your reasoning really tell us? None of these philiosiphies do anything to suggest that there is no God. They really only ask a deeper question of why things exist, but with no answer.
darth tang
Active Member
Originally Posted by Kablamo
See, I looked around me with open eyes for the first time that day. Solid is very important, but without space, what is the point of solid? Without space you cannot even have solid, you cannot define solid because space is the frame in which solid is mounted upon, and the same is true vice versa, just as evil is to good, and just as life is to death.
Life in the abrahamic viewpoint lasts forever through eternity, but with no true death there is no true life. How do you know you are alive and you are concious if there was no unconcious? Every thing in the universe behaves this way.
People might say that the clay that makes the pot is the most important part of a pot, but I know, that the emptyness is what makes the pot useful,
That is why you must empty your mind of all opinions, thoughts, and ideas in order to TRUELY realize it's full potential. You must realize the unity of everything! Space and solid are NOT opposites! They are the two faces of one reality. Just like Silent and deafening, black and white, up and down, soft and hard! This can only be done if you TRUELY have faith! Have faith in your intellect and stop being useless puppets!
I finally see where you are coming from. Took me a while and maybe this will help the others. Your views are no different than say Aristotle and Socrates. But the views are purely philisophical. Take the same pot made of clay and bury it in the sand completely removing the space. Is it no longer a pot? It can no longer serve it's purpose as the space is now gone, but does that change the fact it is a pot? No. It just prevents it from performing it's function. But it is still a pot.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
So, all of these thoughts kept bothering me for a while because I was still afraid for my soul because of this newborn wisdom I had somehow gotten.
Then I read a verse in paul,
"Test everything; hold fast to that which is good."
Well, I did that, and now I am holding fast of that which is good.
As pointed out, this is taken out of context. If so desired I can give you the entire chapter and you will see what was being discussed and how this versus was appropriate for the context. You remind me of every anti-christian group that takes one phrase and says "see, it says I can," without realizing you have taken it out of context. I can do the same way with any of our countries laws. For instance I can make murder legal by taken a sentence in a statute out of context. Wil this hold up in court or debate? No, because I took it out of context and twisted it to my benefit and not what the original intent was as COMPLETELY worded.
See, I looked around me with open eyes for the first time that day. Solid is very important, but without space, what is the point of solid? Without space you cannot even have solid, you cannot define solid because space is the frame in which solid is mounted upon, and the same is true vice versa, just as evil is to good, and just as life is to death.
Life in the abrahamic viewpoint lasts forever through eternity, but with no true death there is no true life. How do you know you are alive and you are concious if there was no unconcious? Every thing in the universe behaves this way.
People might say that the clay that makes the pot is the most important part of a pot, but I know, that the emptyness is what makes the pot useful,
That is why you must empty your mind of all opinions, thoughts, and ideas in order to TRUELY realize it's full potential. You must realize the unity of everything! Space and solid are NOT opposites! They are the two faces of one reality. Just like Silent and deafening, black and white, up and down, soft and hard! This can only be done if you TRUELY have faith! Have faith in your intellect and stop being useless puppets!
I finally see where you are coming from. Took me a while and maybe this will help the others. Your views are no different than say Aristotle and Socrates. But the views are purely philisophical. Take the same pot made of clay and bury it in the sand completely removing the space. Is it no longer a pot? It can no longer serve it's purpose as the space is now gone, but does that change the fact it is a pot? No. It just prevents it from performing it's function. But it is still a pot.
Originally Posted by Kablamo
So, all of these thoughts kept bothering me for a while because I was still afraid for my soul because of this newborn wisdom I had somehow gotten.
Then I read a verse in paul,
"Test everything; hold fast to that which is good."
Well, I did that, and now I am holding fast of that which is good.
As pointed out, this is taken out of context. If so desired I can give you the entire chapter and you will see what was being discussed and how this versus was appropriate for the context. You remind me of every anti-christian group that takes one phrase and says "see, it says I can," without realizing you have taken it out of context. I can do the same way with any of our countries laws. For instance I can make murder legal by taken a sentence in a statute out of context. Wil this hold up in court or debate? No, because I took it out of context and twisted it to my benefit and not what the original intent was as COMPLETELY worded.
darth tang
Active Member
I will go even further with philosophy. Your bones in your body are completely surrounded by mass. There is no space surrounding them....does mean we have no bones?
kablamo
Member
Originally Posted by Darth Tang
I finally see where you are coming from. Took me a while and maybe this will help the others. Your views are no different than say Aristotle and Socrates. But the views are purely philisophical. Take the same pot made of clay and bury it in the sand completely removing the space. Is it no longer a pot? It can no longer serve it's purpose as the space is now gone, but does that change the fact it is a pot? No. It just prevents it from performing it's function. But it is still a pot.
Oh ho! but that's where you are wrong, sir! It's function is what MAKES it a pot!
Take this for example, I have hear a bucket, it's great for holding water, well turn it upside down, uh oh, it's not a bucket anymore, it's more like a stool. Hit it with your hand, makes a nice sound huh? Now it's a drum. The names we apply for things are so disgustingly arbitrary it's unbelievable. A thing is not REAL. A thing is a measurement of thought, just as a meter is a measurement of length. A thing is as much reality as you can hold onto in one thought. Humans can't quite grasp the entirety of reality so we cut it down into smaller bites and take it on one bite at a time, and those bites are called things.
People's biggest problem is that for the most part they think they don't belong here, "I, a stranger and afraid in a world I never made." You can't wait for your ticket out of this earth and into heaven. You spend your whole life with this huge goal in mind, that one day you are going to "make it", and all of western society is built around this.
Oh son, once you finish elementary school you can be in high school! Oh, son, once you finish high school it's off to college. Oh son, once you graduate, it's off to gratuate school. Oh son, once you get your masters it's time to get a job! So they get a job selling insurance or something, and work there way up their whole lives to eventually reach this point you call success, and once they get to this amazing goal, they look back and realize it was all a sham and that they wasted their life! Because life is a musical thing, and you are supposed to dance. It's not a race.
As pointed out, this is taken out of context. If so desired I can give you the entire chapter and you will see what was being discussed and how this versus was appropriate for the context. You remind me of every anti-christian group that takes one phrase and says "see, it says I can," without realizing you have taken it out of context. I can do the same way with any of our countries laws. For instance I can make murder legal by taken a sentence in a statute out of context. Wil this hold up in court or debate? No, because I took it out of context and twisted it to my benefit and not what the original intent was as COMPLETELY worded.
Yeah, i did take it out of context, but when i read that line i thought hmm, that's some good advice. You act like you cannot take a part of the bible as real without taking the entire thing as truth. That's got to be one of the biggest fallacies I've ever heard! You say that because the bible is divinely inspired word of god that if you believe any of it, you MUST believe all of it, well, that would only be true if the bible were divinely dictated by god, too bad it wasn't and never claimed to be.
If you ask me inspiration is not the same as dictation, yet most christians tend to think that the bible is divinely dictated EXACTLY as god would have it to read.
True inspiration is when you are inspired to write about cheetahs after watching them run really fast and gracefully, so you have been inspired to write a novel about cheetahs attacking people or whatever. the cheetah didn't sit you down and tell you EXACTLY what it is like to be a cheetah... I think the bible is the same way which is why there are so many problems with it.
I finally see where you are coming from. Took me a while and maybe this will help the others. Your views are no different than say Aristotle and Socrates. But the views are purely philisophical. Take the same pot made of clay and bury it in the sand completely removing the space. Is it no longer a pot? It can no longer serve it's purpose as the space is now gone, but does that change the fact it is a pot? No. It just prevents it from performing it's function. But it is still a pot.
Oh ho! but that's where you are wrong, sir! It's function is what MAKES it a pot!
Take this for example, I have hear a bucket, it's great for holding water, well turn it upside down, uh oh, it's not a bucket anymore, it's more like a stool. Hit it with your hand, makes a nice sound huh? Now it's a drum. The names we apply for things are so disgustingly arbitrary it's unbelievable. A thing is not REAL. A thing is a measurement of thought, just as a meter is a measurement of length. A thing is as much reality as you can hold onto in one thought. Humans can't quite grasp the entirety of reality so we cut it down into smaller bites and take it on one bite at a time, and those bites are called things.
People's biggest problem is that for the most part they think they don't belong here, "I, a stranger and afraid in a world I never made." You can't wait for your ticket out of this earth and into heaven. You spend your whole life with this huge goal in mind, that one day you are going to "make it", and all of western society is built around this.
Oh son, once you finish elementary school you can be in high school! Oh, son, once you finish high school it's off to college. Oh son, once you graduate, it's off to gratuate school. Oh son, once you get your masters it's time to get a job! So they get a job selling insurance or something, and work there way up their whole lives to eventually reach this point you call success, and once they get to this amazing goal, they look back and realize it was all a sham and that they wasted their life! Because life is a musical thing, and you are supposed to dance. It's not a race.
As pointed out, this is taken out of context. If so desired I can give you the entire chapter and you will see what was being discussed and how this versus was appropriate for the context. You remind me of every anti-christian group that takes one phrase and says "see, it says I can," without realizing you have taken it out of context. I can do the same way with any of our countries laws. For instance I can make murder legal by taken a sentence in a statute out of context. Wil this hold up in court or debate? No, because I took it out of context and twisted it to my benefit and not what the original intent was as COMPLETELY worded.
Yeah, i did take it out of context, but when i read that line i thought hmm, that's some good advice. You act like you cannot take a part of the bible as real without taking the entire thing as truth. That's got to be one of the biggest fallacies I've ever heard! You say that because the bible is divinely inspired word of god that if you believe any of it, you MUST believe all of it, well, that would only be true if the bible were divinely dictated by god, too bad it wasn't and never claimed to be.
If you ask me inspiration is not the same as dictation, yet most christians tend to think that the bible is divinely dictated EXACTLY as god would have it to read.
True inspiration is when you are inspired to write about cheetahs after watching them run really fast and gracefully, so you have been inspired to write a novel about cheetahs attacking people or whatever. the cheetah didn't sit you down and tell you EXACTLY what it is like to be a cheetah... I think the bible is the same way which is why there are so many problems with it.
kablamo
Member
Originally Posted by Darth Tang
I will go even further with philosophy. Your bones in your body are completely surrounded by mass. There is no space surrounding them....does mean we have no bones?
No, this does not mean that we have no bones. Your reductio ad absurdum misses the point here.
Now, talking about bones and flesh is very profound and metaphysical, but not unless you realize that bones and flesh are two sides of the same coin!
(keep in mind here I'm not necessarilly talking about actual bones and actual flesh in the following idea, they are more philosophical and metaphysical bones and flesh.
The balance here is not between the solid and the space, but with the bones and the flesh, the soft, yeilding, warm and lovely flesh, and the hard, cold,
[hr]
bones. With only bones you'd be a mere skeleton, no feelings, merely doing your duities with no life in you, but without bones and with only flesh you couldn't even hold yourself up! You'd spend all of your time chasing your dreams and your whims that you would have no foundation on which to accomplish those things.
To understand the deepest metaphysical secrets of the universe you really only have to understand one thing, that for every inside there is an outside, and for every outside there is an inside. You really don't need to understand more than that.
I'm not simply waxing poetically as I was accused of, I am stating deep philosophical truths that are of the utmost importance!
Originally Posted by HAGFISH
So this statement makes it sound like that single moment changed you from being a Christian. I honestly don't see how this could "devalify your perception of reality" to such a degree. How can you truly explain what you saw? I don't see how any of your conclusions based on what you saw are anything more than assumptions that can hardly be anything more than best guesses. As someone who was so interested in the scientific side of this conversation before I'm curious to hear the science behind such an experience.
First of all, by describing it, i shall subject you to a very serious hoax. I will try my hardest, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to describe this experience as it really happened.
The absolute most important part of this experience was the fact that my mind was calm and tranquil. How many times a day is your mind calm? Probably never, as mine wasn't either until I started practicing to shut it up.
I love talking and I love debating and argueing till the sun rises, but if all I ever do is talk, How could I ever listen, likewise, if I constantly think from the moment I wake up until the moment I fall asleep, I have nothing to think about except thoughts, and as I said before, thought is our mind putting reality into bites small enough for our brains to take in.
Think about your mind, really listen to your head. Quite interminable isn't it? Because you look around and say, "thats a keyboard," or "I'm late for work", you are transfixed, you are caught up in the illusion that it's all what WE say it is. I know, i'm just as bad as you are, we are ALL caught up... I will now describe the true nature of the trap that humans live their life in.
Some many thousands of years ago, a fisherman picked up his net and hung it up to dry before he went to bed. He woke up the next morning and groggely went to take the net down to prepare for another day of fishing, but he stopped and looked through the net. He noticed a peculiar thing. The diamond pattern of the net captured the world within it's grid, and he could say look, that mountain is one, two, three, four holes high, and one, two, three, four, five, six holes wide, and it is five holes to the right of that tree, and the ocean is down from the tree four holes, and from that moment on we've been trapped. Now, this is good that humans started to develop a system of measurement and all, but as long as people keep quantifying reality, and measuring it, and trying to catch hold and make it subservient, they will never really be a part of nature as they were the day before the man looked through the net, when all he needed to do to REALLY see the beauty of it was to take the net down.
Now, if you are really wise, you don't take sides in this arguement, because on one hand, you are just fooling yourself and playing this game that you might not even enjoy playing, but on the other hand, what fun! Get attatched, let the illusion envelop you and really enjoy the game and take it for all it's worth! But... when you tire of that, there IS a way out, and the easiest way is to unthink.
When you unthink, you make no assumptions, you make no best guesses. You really truely understand what you see and there is no need for anythoughts, because no thoughts can describe what happens when people see the light or whatever you want to call it.
I will go even further with philosophy. Your bones in your body are completely surrounded by mass. There is no space surrounding them....does mean we have no bones?
No, this does not mean that we have no bones. Your reductio ad absurdum misses the point here.
Now, talking about bones and flesh is very profound and metaphysical, but not unless you realize that bones and flesh are two sides of the same coin!
(keep in mind here I'm not necessarilly talking about actual bones and actual flesh in the following idea, they are more philosophical and metaphysical bones and flesh.
The balance here is not between the solid and the space, but with the bones and the flesh, the soft, yeilding, warm and lovely flesh, and the hard, cold,
[hr]
bones. With only bones you'd be a mere skeleton, no feelings, merely doing your duities with no life in you, but without bones and with only flesh you couldn't even hold yourself up! You'd spend all of your time chasing your dreams and your whims that you would have no foundation on which to accomplish those things.
To understand the deepest metaphysical secrets of the universe you really only have to understand one thing, that for every inside there is an outside, and for every outside there is an inside. You really don't need to understand more than that.
I'm not simply waxing poetically as I was accused of, I am stating deep philosophical truths that are of the utmost importance!
Originally Posted by HAGFISH
So this statement makes it sound like that single moment changed you from being a Christian. I honestly don't see how this could "devalify your perception of reality" to such a degree. How can you truly explain what you saw? I don't see how any of your conclusions based on what you saw are anything more than assumptions that can hardly be anything more than best guesses. As someone who was so interested in the scientific side of this conversation before I'm curious to hear the science behind such an experience.
First of all, by describing it, i shall subject you to a very serious hoax. I will try my hardest, but there is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to describe this experience as it really happened.
The absolute most important part of this experience was the fact that my mind was calm and tranquil. How many times a day is your mind calm? Probably never, as mine wasn't either until I started practicing to shut it up.
I love talking and I love debating and argueing till the sun rises, but if all I ever do is talk, How could I ever listen, likewise, if I constantly think from the moment I wake up until the moment I fall asleep, I have nothing to think about except thoughts, and as I said before, thought is our mind putting reality into bites small enough for our brains to take in.
Think about your mind, really listen to your head. Quite interminable isn't it? Because you look around and say, "thats a keyboard," or "I'm late for work", you are transfixed, you are caught up in the illusion that it's all what WE say it is. I know, i'm just as bad as you are, we are ALL caught up... I will now describe the true nature of the trap that humans live their life in.
Some many thousands of years ago, a fisherman picked up his net and hung it up to dry before he went to bed. He woke up the next morning and groggely went to take the net down to prepare for another day of fishing, but he stopped and looked through the net. He noticed a peculiar thing. The diamond pattern of the net captured the world within it's grid, and he could say look, that mountain is one, two, three, four holes high, and one, two, three, four, five, six holes wide, and it is five holes to the right of that tree, and the ocean is down from the tree four holes, and from that moment on we've been trapped. Now, this is good that humans started to develop a system of measurement and all, but as long as people keep quantifying reality, and measuring it, and trying to catch hold and make it subservient, they will never really be a part of nature as they were the day before the man looked through the net, when all he needed to do to REALLY see the beauty of it was to take the net down.
Now, if you are really wise, you don't take sides in this arguement, because on one hand, you are just fooling yourself and playing this game that you might not even enjoy playing, but on the other hand, what fun! Get attatched, let the illusion envelop you and really enjoy the game and take it for all it's worth! But... when you tire of that, there IS a way out, and the easiest way is to unthink.
When you unthink, you make no assumptions, you make no best guesses. You really truely understand what you see and there is no need for anythoughts, because no thoughts can describe what happens when people see the light or whatever you want to call it.
hagfish
Active Member
This still does nothing to explain God away.
I'm typing on a laptop right now. Whether you like it or not, it is there. Your philosiphies can't change that. It is not a part of my imagination. If I decided to call it an oven, it's function is the same. The names that you seem to think we are slaves to are irrelevant. These things exist and there functions exist, so what is your point?
I'm typing on a laptop right now. Whether you like it or not, it is there. Your philosiphies can't change that. It is not a part of my imagination. If I decided to call it an oven, it's function is the same. The names that you seem to think we are slaves to are irrelevant. These things exist and there functions exist, so what is your point?
kablamo
Member
Originally Posted by 1journeyman
Sorry Kablamo. That sounds neat and all, but it makes no sense. According to your own words there is no "good". That's nonsense; Furthermore, the Bible is a complete book. You can't quote part of it without taking it all for truth.
Try telling a rock that it only exists because of the space around it. You can wax poetically all day long; at the end of the day the rock is still going to be there.
We live in a world full of absolutes. If there is no difference between life and death why do you get up in the morning? Why eat? Why sleep? After all, sleep only has relevance is you are awake....
Lastly, how can I be a puppet? If God doesn't exist who's pulling the strings?
1. I never said there is no good, I also never said that there was no evil, i'm just saying that they are both equally valid and neccesary and they ARENT struggling against each other, they exist in perfect harmony. Therefore there is absolutely no chance of evil overtaking good. and likewise, there is NO chance of good ever overtaking evil!
It seems obvious that you have never studied chinese philosophy, so I will brief you on what I mean by this.
Like everything else in this universe, whenever one force rises up and becomes too strong, it is instantly met by it's opposite force which ALWAYS subdues it. No, let me rephrase that, Sometimes a force will mutually and delecately rise in harmony with another force.
When the atmophere becomes too moist, it rains, when it is extra dry, evaporation is greatly increased. When things get hot, they expand, when things get cold they contract. We all know the story of the tower of babel, when he became too powerful and his palace too great, it was crushed! This happened to Hitler, napoleon, Alexander the great, and it could very well happen to America, but thankfully, we seem to have levelled off a bit. The more power one gains, the more corrupt they become, like the old addage, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" When you become corrupt you will often times do things that people don't like and as a result, sentament falls, well, you use your military prowess to keep the people in line, but the people fight back even harder, and if they don't over throw you, you kill them all, and then, a nation with only a leader but no subjects has absolutely no power!
The entire universe works like a bowstring... the more you pull the bowstring out of it's straight and balanced path, the harder it will push your fingers back into alignment, and if you are wise, you will see this happening and gently place the string back where it was, but if you are not wise, you do not let go, you only pull harder, and WHAM. Your fingers give in to the strength of the string and disaster happens.
Just like storm systems over the gulf of mexico, slowly but surely they push the string of our atmosphere to it's limit, and WHAM, Here comes Hurricain john doe, who violently puts all of nature back into the swing of things.
Now you might look at this and think that, for a short time, things are out of balance, until they are corrected for, but this is not so, for as long as your fingers keep steady holding that bowstring, you have a balance, and the instant you let go and the string starts flying, it is still perfectly balanced and when it goes too far in the other direction on it's return journey, it's still in perfect harmony. There has never never never never never been any single moment in the whole of the history of the universe where balance was not achieved.
We polute our atmosphere, and what could happen if we don't stop? We start to choke. Slowly the human race dies off choking on our own exhaust. Well, with no humans around to foul things up, the earth quickly returns to normalcy as our own natural filters begin to destroy the waste.
And it doesn't stop there, Ow, i got stung by a bee... Let's kill every single Bee on planet earth. Oh good, no more bee stings, but... wait, where did all of the flowers go? Oh wait, the bee used to kill a certain worm that eats our favorite fruit, now we have no fruit.
Let's make it a little more subtle, many corals utilize zooxanthellae within their bodies to make food for the coral, well, they are totally different species right? Lets try an experiment, let's kill all of the zooxanthellae and see how well the acroporia does, shall we? Oh, it's bleached now. If two species can't survive without each other, could you not classify them as one and the same? The reef is an entire ecosystem! Without fish the corals die and vice versa I'm sure of it! If you remove one part from the ecosystem, the entire system changes and you no longer have the same system.
Sorry Kablamo. That sounds neat and all, but it makes no sense. According to your own words there is no "good". That's nonsense; Furthermore, the Bible is a complete book. You can't quote part of it without taking it all for truth.
Try telling a rock that it only exists because of the space around it. You can wax poetically all day long; at the end of the day the rock is still going to be there.
We live in a world full of absolutes. If there is no difference between life and death why do you get up in the morning? Why eat? Why sleep? After all, sleep only has relevance is you are awake....
Lastly, how can I be a puppet? If God doesn't exist who's pulling the strings?
1. I never said there is no good, I also never said that there was no evil, i'm just saying that they are both equally valid and neccesary and they ARENT struggling against each other, they exist in perfect harmony. Therefore there is absolutely no chance of evil overtaking good. and likewise, there is NO chance of good ever overtaking evil!
It seems obvious that you have never studied chinese philosophy, so I will brief you on what I mean by this.
Like everything else in this universe, whenever one force rises up and becomes too strong, it is instantly met by it's opposite force which ALWAYS subdues it. No, let me rephrase that, Sometimes a force will mutually and delecately rise in harmony with another force.
When the atmophere becomes too moist, it rains, when it is extra dry, evaporation is greatly increased. When things get hot, they expand, when things get cold they contract. We all know the story of the tower of babel, when he became too powerful and his palace too great, it was crushed! This happened to Hitler, napoleon, Alexander the great, and it could very well happen to America, but thankfully, we seem to have levelled off a bit. The more power one gains, the more corrupt they become, like the old addage, "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" When you become corrupt you will often times do things that people don't like and as a result, sentament falls, well, you use your military prowess to keep the people in line, but the people fight back even harder, and if they don't over throw you, you kill them all, and then, a nation with only a leader but no subjects has absolutely no power!
The entire universe works like a bowstring... the more you pull the bowstring out of it's straight and balanced path, the harder it will push your fingers back into alignment, and if you are wise, you will see this happening and gently place the string back where it was, but if you are not wise, you do not let go, you only pull harder, and WHAM. Your fingers give in to the strength of the string and disaster happens.
Just like storm systems over the gulf of mexico, slowly but surely they push the string of our atmosphere to it's limit, and WHAM, Here comes Hurricain john doe, who violently puts all of nature back into the swing of things.
Now you might look at this and think that, for a short time, things are out of balance, until they are corrected for, but this is not so, for as long as your fingers keep steady holding that bowstring, you have a balance, and the instant you let go and the string starts flying, it is still perfectly balanced and when it goes too far in the other direction on it's return journey, it's still in perfect harmony. There has never never never never never been any single moment in the whole of the history of the universe where balance was not achieved.
We polute our atmosphere, and what could happen if we don't stop? We start to choke. Slowly the human race dies off choking on our own exhaust. Well, with no humans around to foul things up, the earth quickly returns to normalcy as our own natural filters begin to destroy the waste.
And it doesn't stop there, Ow, i got stung by a bee... Let's kill every single Bee on planet earth. Oh good, no more bee stings, but... wait, where did all of the flowers go? Oh wait, the bee used to kill a certain worm that eats our favorite fruit, now we have no fruit.
Let's make it a little more subtle, many corals utilize zooxanthellae within their bodies to make food for the coral, well, they are totally different species right? Lets try an experiment, let's kill all of the zooxanthellae and see how well the acroporia does, shall we? Oh, it's bleached now. If two species can't survive without each other, could you not classify them as one and the same? The reef is an entire ecosystem! Without fish the corals die and vice versa I'm sure of it! If you remove one part from the ecosystem, the entire system changes and you no longer have the same system.
kablamo
Member
That's where you see that the universe does not utilize newtonian mechanics, it's not billiard balls knocking into each other. The universe is a 3D web and on every crossing of convergance of silk there is a dew drop, and each dew drop contains a reflection of all of the other dew drops and in each reflection there contains reflections of all of the other reflections ad infinitum! You cannot do ANYTHING to this web without it rippling through the entire cosmos. These truths are basic to reality, and if you really consider them, you might just see that they make a little more sense than conventional ideas.
2. Cause it's fun! Life is a musical thing and you are SUPPOSED to dance, it's not a race to heaven. If the afterlife and getting to heaven is all you are concerned with, if you really think this life is just a test of whether or not you can get to heaven, why do you go to school? Why do you have a job? Why don't you just stay and worship at the church all day, every day?
I hate reductio ad absurdums, especially ones that aren't well thought out.
3. The church pulls the strings. Did you know that tithing is not biblical? Yet I'm pretty sure 10 percent goes to support your local church right? But the laws for tithing are layed out VERY clearly in the OT.
http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
Also, about the church, let's read from your own bible shall we?
Acts 17:24 NIV The God who made this world and everything in it is the LORD of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
2 Corinthians 5:1 NIV Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
1 Peter 2:5 NIV "you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy preisthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"
Psalms 127:1a NIV Unless the LORD builds the house, its builders labor in vain.
Seems pretty cut and dry. I know it's an excellent thing to gather with your christian friends and have a good time fellowshipping and all, but there are SO many people who think the church, the papacy, the archbiships, the preachers, the administrators, the sunday school teachers, all of these people are the backbone of the church, but it is not so. Churches are businesses, making money on things and they only have to work 2 days a week (i'm joking i know theres lots of time writing sermons and doing the administration and auxillary functions)
The problem with this viewpoint is that the people start to rely on the church to go get their religion fix for the week, sing some spiritual nursery rhymes and go back to their "evil" lives. They live in a constant state of circulation confession on sunday, bar on monday, brothel on tuesday, and so on and so forth until confession again on sunday, or if you are a protestant, "running to the mercy seat".
And the prayers! you people tell god what to do ALL day long! As if he didn't know.
You know, I wouldn't have so many problems with christianity if it wasn't for the church. It's original inception from what I can tell without the 30 year memory loss of the apostles and the editing and selection of the catholics, and King James' horde of translatorial mistakes was an excellent religion.
The gospel, in my opinion, is that we are all the son of god, that we all were equal with him. He just didn't really know how to say it. ("is it not written in your law, Ye are gods?")
In hebrew or arabic, calling someone the "son of" something means "of the nature of" for instance, when you call someone a son of a dog, son of a goat, could be uncourteous, unfair, rude, son of beleal is an evil person, son of god is a divine person.
Oh yeah, by the way, in greek, he NEVER said, I am THE son of god. He said I am A son of god, in ancient greek, not using the definite artical is the same as using the INdefinite article. He said , I'm son of god. The translators interpolated that to say I am the son of god. read that in your king james and you will see the word "the" in italics, not for emphasis, italics in the king james represent translatorial interpolations.
Now maybe I'm just knocking down straw men, but I really think that's what it was.
I suppose I have answered all points now and await some good dialogue.
2. Cause it's fun! Life is a musical thing and you are SUPPOSED to dance, it's not a race to heaven. If the afterlife and getting to heaven is all you are concerned with, if you really think this life is just a test of whether or not you can get to heaven, why do you go to school? Why do you have a job? Why don't you just stay and worship at the church all day, every day?
I hate reductio ad absurdums, especially ones that aren't well thought out.
3. The church pulls the strings. Did you know that tithing is not biblical? Yet I'm pretty sure 10 percent goes to support your local church right? But the laws for tithing are layed out VERY clearly in the OT.
http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
Also, about the church, let's read from your own bible shall we?
Acts 17:24 NIV The God who made this world and everything in it is the LORD of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
2 Corinthians 5:1 NIV Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
1 Peter 2:5 NIV "you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy preisthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ"
Psalms 127:1a NIV Unless the LORD builds the house, its builders labor in vain.
Seems pretty cut and dry. I know it's an excellent thing to gather with your christian friends and have a good time fellowshipping and all, but there are SO many people who think the church, the papacy, the archbiships, the preachers, the administrators, the sunday school teachers, all of these people are the backbone of the church, but it is not so. Churches are businesses, making money on things and they only have to work 2 days a week (i'm joking i know theres lots of time writing sermons and doing the administration and auxillary functions)
The problem with this viewpoint is that the people start to rely on the church to go get their religion fix for the week, sing some spiritual nursery rhymes and go back to their "evil" lives. They live in a constant state of circulation confession on sunday, bar on monday, brothel on tuesday, and so on and so forth until confession again on sunday, or if you are a protestant, "running to the mercy seat".
And the prayers! you people tell god what to do ALL day long! As if he didn't know.
You know, I wouldn't have so many problems with christianity if it wasn't for the church. It's original inception from what I can tell without the 30 year memory loss of the apostles and the editing and selection of the catholics, and King James' horde of translatorial mistakes was an excellent religion.
The gospel, in my opinion, is that we are all the son of god, that we all were equal with him. He just didn't really know how to say it. ("is it not written in your law, Ye are gods?")
In hebrew or arabic, calling someone the "son of" something means "of the nature of" for instance, when you call someone a son of a dog, son of a goat, could be uncourteous, unfair, rude, son of beleal is an evil person, son of god is a divine person.
Oh yeah, by the way, in greek, he NEVER said, I am THE son of god. He said I am A son of god, in ancient greek, not using the definite artical is the same as using the INdefinite article. He said , I'm son of god. The translators interpolated that to say I am the son of god. read that in your king james and you will see the word "the" in italics, not for emphasis, italics in the king james represent translatorial interpolations.
Now maybe I'm just knocking down straw men, but I really think that's what it was.
I suppose I have answered all points now and await some good dialogue.