more on bio wheels

[jlem]

I got great replies from my last post. I have biowheels on my 90 gallon reef, and have never had a problem with nitrates. People commented that the filters trap junk and thus increasing the bioload. The rock traps debree as well. The plain truth is that bio wheels or bioballs produce no more nitrate than live rock or live sand does, and it is the live rock and live sand that converts the nitrate to gas. So who cares how the nitrate is produced if it gets taken care of by the live rock. I am still curious why the bio wheels and bioballs are still called nitrate factories in the reef tank enviroment when live rock does the same thing. I think the myth was started by people who don't understand the nitrogen cycle and wanted to sound cool with their fancy, and mutli billion dollar filter systems. And to the reply about deep sand beds converting nitrite to nitrate by oxygen depleted bacteria. The bacteria are low oxygen level bacteria. The nitrate converting bacteria that live in no oxygen are erobic ( I think That is how it is spelled ) And look like black patches. These will produce very toxic chemicals that can kill off a tank. Love to here more replies

 

[pukfish]

Thanks a lot guys. I think I'm going to get some live rock how much can I get for $10? Would I need a light for live rick?

 

[fshhub]

well, the experience here tells me it is no myth, we had a fo tank, with sand (no dsb, @1.5to2 inches)(started as cc, then switched), and had fun trying to keep the nitrates below 100(normally @80+or-10)and 2 hang on filters plus power heads and various/numerous cleanersnow we have 2 tanks, the fo(40), and a fowlr(75) with a dsb(actually @3 in not 4), 3 powerheads a hang on with NO media(just use it for circulation), less of a cleaning crew, twice(almost) the biolad
AND THE WINNER IS:
the 75 fowlr (because today i still work to keep the nitrates down below 100 in the 40), less than 1/3 of the maintenance, more active fish(same species), we do smaller & less frequent water changes, and the nitrates are never as high as 20,
running since AUG., and after we add more sand, and it matures a bit more, i expect they will get lower yet, if not, i will consider a refugium or skimmer
Maybe i am just trying to sound cool and fancy, but ralistically my system was only about 100$ more than the average wet dry would have cost(without the media and pump), and the lr also has critters which eat the detrietus, a bio ball does not, the dsb and lr break down the nitrates into nitrogen gas which can escape the system(not only convert nutrients to nitrate), the bio balls again do not
i realize this is just my opinions and experiences, but I'll stick with them, for everything i have said, not only is true, but not exaggerated in the least either
now, wet drys or bio wheels can work, if you keep them cleaned out, this i don't have to do either, to keep down the nitrates
ONE other THING I WOULD LIKE TO ADD
marine aquariums, as of now are
NOT a science, just tried and true or failed results or experiences HOWEVER most of the people here, just want to help others with what they have learned , to make all of our systems better thru accomplishments(and posting failures) because WE ALL LOVE THIS HOBBY and would love to see others benefit by knowing what can help and what has hurt us in the past

 

[ebeckels]

you could proabably get 2 lbs for $10. That's not much LR at all.
-Eric

 

[twoods71]

One of the great things about this hobby is no 2 tanks are the same. What works for one my not work for others.
My experience with biowheels has been a good one I have been running them for almost a year now with no problems at all. Nitrates are <5 PPM.
Without a doubt there is no better knowledge then experience but as mentioned before no 2 tanks are the same. I found the best thing to do is know what has worked for other people by reading books and posts from this site, examine what you are doing and make some logical choices.

 

[jlem]

Fshhub. My point is that the biowheels and bioballs produce no more nitrate than live rock. So why do they get a bad wrap. Once a tank matures enough to handle you nitrate problem, which is a problem with a tanks ability to convert nitrate not because of how the nitrate is produced, then I'm sure that any nitrate producing filter system ( live rock, or bio media ) would would pretty much filter to the same effect, and yes a skimmer will lower the organic bioload which will reduce nitrates. I have only ever heard bad things about bio media on this sight and was just wondering the reason why, I am still convinced that it is just a myth. But that is the beutiful thing about america and the right to disagree. Good luck with your tanks, it is a wonderful hobby. Talk to you later

 

[garyfla]

Hi
My .02 cents.The nitrogen cycle is a
naturally occuring process.The whole earth being the largest example.If you setup a tank
put nothing in it and kept it dark it would take years for nitrates to show up.If there was never a source of ammonia there would never be nitite and no nitrate.We are trying
to to cause this to happwen in a limited area.This natural cycle (very simplified}
Begins with nitrogen and ends with nitrogen.
All living things are producers and reducers.
Nothing is ever consumed.Look at it as a chain of products and reduced for the next consumer.The nitrogen cycle is dependant on all conditions being equal.Not too much not too little.if any one of these events is slowed down(it's impossible to stop it entirely)you will see the appropriate reaction. Nitrate is NOT the end of this cycle There are bacteria that consume this and will reduce it back to nitrogen released
into the atmosphere Cycle starts over.
All these things are natural what we doing
is artifially causing these cycles to greatly
increase.
All the methods you describe do this but all have limitations You will never get a complete cycle in a limited space.A healthy
aquarium is proof only that the limits of the method have not been exceeded
W_D filters must stop at nitrate production because they can't support the next form of bacteria that consumes nitrate.
A DSB provides conditions for these so the process is carried further. How much further
is anybodys guess but I guarentee you can overload it.My.02 cents ,okay it was more like a nickel lol. Gary

 

[josh]

Just one thing about bio wheels not mentioned, they add significantly to salt creep and water evaportaion. Personally I would go with a canister filter, H.O.T., or you really don't even need a filter. The LR and the LS will do better than any filter you can buy, just make sure you have adequate water flow and lots of LR, I would go with 2 lbs/gal if you can afford it.

 

[diatom]

jlem~
The fact is that bioballs, biowheels, live rock and live sand do not all filter to the same degree...live sand is 10 times the filter that live rock is. A proper live sand bed actually helps to remove nitrates. Adding a good detrivore kit and a proper clean up crew basically eliminates detrious, and thus you don't get the build up that you do with a biowheel or bioballs.
BTW my DSB in my 125 Gal cost me $20.00 plus some live sand from some friends tank...how much was that biowheel?
[ December 20, 2001: Message edited by: Diatom ]

 

[bbreaux1]

hey diatom how you set up your bed for so cheap?

 

[josh]

BB:
Southdown play sand - 5$ for 50 lb bag

 

[thor]

pukfish
you probably want 25-35lbs of lr approximatly that would cost 100$ i know i hate how its that much im getting some too

 

[diatom]

Thanks Josh
Yup I bought 800 lbs of it for $50.00.
Plenty for this tank and my next one.

 

[josh]

Diatom:
You could probably make some good money buy selling that sand in here, since you can only get it in the northeast. Or if your lucky like me from a store to store transfer.

 

[fshhub]

jlem I BELIEVE(imay be wrong, but)
actually, i believe that (this one will be short) bio wheels and bio balls are referred to as nitrate factories (IMO), is the fact that they do do an outstanding job as filters, and as you mentioned they do filter great and create nitrates,
but that is it, they do create nitrates(thus the word factory comes in), but do nothing to expend them, at all (so therefore, as you have pointed out, you still need to extract them somehow)
maybe that will help you out, that is also why alot of us like lr with a dsb, it does both without extra filtration
HTH(answer your question)
[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: fshhub ]

 

[diatom]

Josh~
THey have plenty of it in Rochester, MN you look into how long of a drive it is from St. Louis. It's not too far I don't think...might be a nice little venture for you.

 

[josh]

Diatom:
Well I have plenty though thanks, however it is almost 5 hours to Chicago, so I would assume it farther up to MN. Like I said some stores will do a store to store transfer.
Josh

 

[jlem]

tell me which tank produces more nitrates. Two seosoned tanks with live rock. One has a magnum 350 with biowheels and both have skimmers. Don't worry about sand or any other factors, it doesn't matter since live rock converts nitrate anyways. Same bioloads and same lighting.

 

[jlem]

diatom. Your dsb cost you 50 bucks. And my emperor 400 cost me 20 bucks from a friend and it removes debree from the tank when I clean the filter pads once a week. nitrates are 0 , yes I said zero, not 10 or even 5, zero. I have 1/2 inch of sand in my tank, and live rock. I doubt it that your 50 dollar sand bed is a commo occurance. Ofcourse a brand new emporer 400 will cost you 40 dollars.

 

[josh]

Jl:
As mentioed earlier, you can get a 50 lbs bag of southdown for $5.00 I would not doubt a total DSB would not cost much at all if this type of sand is available in your area of the country.
Josh