more on bio wheels

[diatom]

Jlem~
Well you be fair for MY tank on order to have the proper amount of turn over you would 3 of those filters and most places I've found them sell them for 50-70 bucks plus shipping...then there is the replacement filter costs, the electricty, the amount of time it takes to clean the silly thing.
Also I said I bought 800lbs for 50 bucks I only used 300 for a cost of about 20 bucks. No maintaince and NO nitrates. My sand bed can be reproduced by anyone anywhere...just some cheap bags if Silca sand will do as long as the grain size is right.
BTW in the scenario you created lets look at it another way...which aquarium has lower nitrates? My guess is that they are the same since neither tank has any nitrate exporting ability...except one has an extra 60 doller filter...a good investment?
And that's as long as you kept the filter medium clean. So we've given (IMO) some pretty decent arguements against them...lets here some arguements for Bio Wheels
[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Diatom ]

 

[jlem]

try looking somewhere else for the emporer. what exactly does your tank have ( a sump, no sump, any chemical filtration at all). Does your tank have just sand and rock and that's it. As far as your response to my scenario, the tanks do have nitrate exporting abilities with the live rock. I am not saying that biowheels are the holy grail. I am just saying that putting one on a reef tank to help the filtration on a tank isn't going to spike nitrates like lots of people say. another way to control nitrate with a canister filter is to only change out 1/3 carbon every month. The deep pores of the charcoal a great media for nitrate bacteria. Changing out only a third will keep the carbon colonized with these bacteria and help keep water clean. use a filter pad before the carbon of course(the reef aqarium encyclapedia). This way prevnts the need for mass amounts of live rock and live sand, and yes it does work. Before I went reef a few years ago I had nitrates at zero with a fish only tank and a magnum 350 with bio wheels. Live rock and dsb is ideal if one can afford it, but is not neccesary
[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: jlem ]

 

[josh]

Jl:
Ok I don't doubt the nitrate reducing quality, personally I have no external filtration, but do you experiece excess evaporation and salt creep due to the amount of water you expose to the air with the wheel? I am not trying to say they are bad or good just wondering. This hobby is all about what works for you, as I am sure you already know.
Josh

 

[jlem]

The bio wheels are covered. The evaporation isn't bad. I put in about three cups of water a night with a pinch of baking soda. I change out one pad and one media container every month with new charcoal.

 

[diatom]

jlem~
I just checked out about 10 places online...most places had it for 70 bucks the cheepest was 50.
If LR exports nitrates then why do people with LR have trouble with them? LR is not a denitrofier (is that the spelling?)...a DSB is.
It may or may not spike nitrates, a lot of people report problems with them, as I don't have one I don't know. The real question for me is why add a peice of mechanical equipment that you don't need? It more a matter of philosophy. There are a lot of approches out there...my personal preference is to try to keep things as natural as I can while keeping a healthy tank.
My setup BTW is LR, LS, protein skimmer and a sump/refugium.
If you like bio wheels I say go for it. If you want a HOT filter and want to replace carbon and it works for you, Hurrah!! Since you asked for opinions on Bio Wheels you've got mine...save your money get good DSB that's my opinion and many others but there are many many approches, I say do what you like and enjoy your tank.
[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Diatom ]

 

[josh]

Well I hate to disagree, but the LR hosts bacteria just like the DSB, not in the same amount, and also algae. Both are denitrifiers. But I will just sit back and watch you have a spiritied conversation.
Josh

 

[diatom]

Josh~
it's the anaerobic layer in the deep sand bed that removes the Nitrates...the bacteia on the lr converts nitrites to nitrates but does little to remove nitrates.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
[ December 21, 2001: Message edited by: Diatom ]

 

[josh]

Diatom:
Point taken, I read some more about the details and agree.
Josh

 

[jlem]

Diatom. The book the reef encyclapedia quotes that the deep pores in the live rock act the same as the deep layers of a sand bed. i wish I could see your tank it really sounds nice. I promise you that there is a sight with emporers for 39.99. i just bought a magnum 350 pro system with biowheels for 89.00. I wanted to move my tank closer to the wall. I have a berlin skimmer left over from when I tore down my sump (to much evaporation) and want to get ridd of it, anybody interested.

 

[diatom]

jlem~
I'll let you know when I get some pics up buddy. It's an ok tank...I enjoy it. Needs more LR and a few more corals though.
So here's the deal, I think your right that the deep pores do work in the same fashion, however not to the degree that LS works. I can't remember the excat figure but I believe Dr. Ron said that LS has 100 times the filtering ability of LR, now this is quite a difference.
I wasn't questioning you about the price, just telling you what a quick search told me. If you say it's so, then it is...I didn't even check this site...sorry Admin.
Good luck with the tank jlem, I'd love to see some pics of yours too.

 

[wally]

The reality is that all bio-wheels do is convert ammonia to nitrite. Unless you have detritus rotting in your tank the ammonia levels are going to be the same no matter what filter system you are using (berlin, bioballs, bio-wheels, UGF whatever)so at the end your nitrates will be the same as well. Bio-wheels are very good at converting ammonia into nitrite and then into nitrates so good infact that they are used by many sewage treatment plants to do the same thing. The problem is finding ways to deal with the extra nitrates that are left when all is said and done. As mentioned there are several ways to do this a DSB being the most popular and perhaps the best, or you could have a refugium.
A deep sand bed does not do a great job however with the first part of the process which is converting the ammonia into nitrite and then into nitrate. Thats why you need liverock and livesand. What liverock does is provide a very good place for bacteria to grow on. That along with good water circulation makes for a huge fluidized bed filtration system.
If we are talking about costs here a bio-wheel filter is WAY less than liverock. And if you have a bio-wheel you should be able to get by with far less live rock which would save you a bundle. PLUS you will get great water movement that is drawn up from the bottom and put back on the surface saving you on a powerhead or two. PLUS (esp. on Emperor filters) you have a great place to add carbon, or resins.

 

[bbreaux1]

okay so say i set up a tank with the dsb of 4 inch and a powerfilter with 2 biowheels(kinda like the pinguin 330 i believe) would that mean i can get by without putting live rock and instead just sticking in some dried rock since from what i gather bio wheels churn out nitrates and dsb take care of the nitrates any help id be very greatful
im looking for ways to set up my new 55gal long tank i was kinda nervouse about having 4inches of sand in a tank thats only 20inches high but alot of people are seeming to swear by them. also im not looking at putting in any coral just some fish(blue hippo tang,fire angel,2 true perc or some other pair of clowns if they do well together, and maybe a royal gramma kinda like gobies too but i wouldnt want him burring down in my sand stiring up the bottom also one more thing anyone know of a good protien skimmer preferably hang on the back for under 100$ thanks

 

[cyn]

Josh, do you have the store location that managed the transfer? My HD is being stubborn even though I insist that they can transfer the stuff. I am anxious to get rid of my CC asap and am relying on the Southdown to do it. Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[diatom]

Wally~
In what way would LR be superior to LS in the begining stages of the cycle? Sand has far more surface area for the bacteria to inhabit the rock does.
My opinion, and it is just that because I haven't read any studies either way is that LS is just as efficient of a filter as a bio wheel is and is infact better because of it's denitrating properties.
The LR is more of a habitat for your livestock and really is just a nice natural devoration.
If you've read something else I'd love to get pointed in that direction, I can use all the education I can get.
Thanks,
D~

 

[wally]

Diatom,
The bacteria that converts ammonia into nitrites and then into nitrates needs a lot of oxygen to grow and work good. That is why biowheels work so well since they are up in the air half of the time and get a TON of oxygen. Yes sand does have a lot of surface area but only the very top of it is getting exposed to highly oxygenated water the farther you go down the less oxygen is available.
It is in this low to no oxygen level of sand that the bacteria that converts nitrates to nitrogen gas lives and does its thing. Until there is nitrates in the water this bacteria has nothing to eat and will not grow very well at all.
Rock on the other hand has a lot of surface area that is on its outside that is always having water move over it exposing the bacteria that live on it to oxygenated water. Very porous rock that has lots of holes like good quality live rock has even more surface area to it that is exposed to moving water.
I am not knocking the idea of a DSB or a plenum for that mater since you do need something to deal with the nitrates in the water. What I am saying is that the science of bio-wheels is very strong and if you have them you could get by with less rock and more livestock. ANDif used with a DSB or a plenum you would have a very stable tank. I think that this type of setup is ideal for a reef or Fish Only tank. And if you are doing it for fish only you could have more room for fish since you would have far less rock taking up space.
I am such a believer in this that in 2 weeks I am going to set up a 55 gallon tank with 40 pounds of dry aragonite base rock (in two piles on either end of the tank), about 2 pounds of live rock to seed it all (one pound for each end)a DSB and two Emperor 400 filters. I am setting it up like this to give a large open area for swimming and to have a large sandy area in the middle. Total cost for filters, rock and sand? Less than $200.00 and I will put money on the fact that this will be a rock solid tank and will look good as well.

 

[bbreaux1]

Hey Wally
thanks thats what i needed to hear i had been thinking of doing that cause i cant see paying 200$ for rocks when i can get a biowhell that does roughly the same thing do you thinkg two power filters with biowheels are neccessary for a 55gallon tank or could i get by with the dsb an aquatech 30-60 w/biowheels(same as penguin 330) and a prizm protien skimmer thanks for any help you could give me

 

[diatom]

Wally~
I think your plan is a good one, especially for FO tanks, however most of the reading I have done suggests that the DSB is not nearly as good at dealing with nitrates that are created higher up in the water column as it is if the breakdown occurs closer to the DSB.
Like I said earlier there are many ways to have a successful set up. A bio wheel wouldn't be for me at this point but if you like it, cool. BTW I had almost the exact same set up that you described in my 55 agressive tank. The only way I could control nitrates was with fairly strict water changes...but that was probably because I fed fairly heavily.
Good luck with the new tank and Merry Christmas

 

[wally]

Originally posted by bbreaux1:
<STRONG>Hey Wally
thanks thats what i needed to hear i had been thinking of doing that cause i cant see paying 200$ for rocks when i can get a biowhell that does roughly the same thing do you thinkg two power filters with biowheels are neccessary for a 55gallon tank or could i get by with the dsb an aquatech 30-60 w/biowheels(same as penguin 330) and a prizm protien skimmer thanks for any help you could give me</STRONG>
You should be fine. However I would get an Emperor filter in this instance. Simply because of the extra media carts that come with them. You can fill them up with what ever but the cool thing about them is that you can also fill them with filter floss or poly-fiber pillow stuffing from a fabric store (its the same thing)If you do that for about 5 cents you will have a very good mechanical filter. then you can just pop out and throw away the poly-filters every 2 days or so and not have to worry about anything rotting in your filter. You can get Emperor 400s online from many sources for 40-45 bucks.
I went with two of them because I will get 800gph of water movement which is important with me. I also at this point have no plans to use a skimmer. So the second Emp. filter will save me a few bucks over a skimmer as well. If you do only go with one filter I would put it in the middle of the tank and put powerheads on both ends of the tank so you get good water movement.
If you want more info on my set-ups PLEASE email
wally@wallybillingham.com
[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Wally ]