More troops for Afghanistan?
- Thread starter zman1
- Start date
mantisman51
Active Member
I appreciate that President Obama has the guts to make a stand. I am perplexed by Afghanistan. It seems that it is the proverbial tarbaby. Is it possible to set up and defend democracy where there is no will in the country for one? We could have won Vietnam easily if we fought a war to gain the territory instead of hold back the North, but the Vietnamese had no desire to be self-ruling. So would they have even cared if we would have won? I think Afghanistan poses a serious problem in that the people there don't seem to have the slightest interest in what we are promising.
jackri
Active Member
They have totally different views than we do and probably don't fully understand the democratic process within tribes.
Just like when the Indians sold land to the "white man" they laughed because they believed no one could actually "own" the land so it was free money to them. They just didn't understand how it was viewed by the white man who then proceded to take about everything.
You can sit over here and analyze life over there but it's not as simple as saying we shouldve done this or that when we don't understand their way of life.
Just like people don't understand why the A-bombs needed to be dropped to end WWII. To the Japanese -- not fighting and disobeying the Emperor was disobeying God. And they were VERY religious -- something it seems people in our country aren't and can't understand how other people can be.
It's complicated and glad I'm not in charge but I do believe we need to be there.
Just like when the Indians sold land to the "white man" they laughed because they believed no one could actually "own" the land so it was free money to them. They just didn't understand how it was viewed by the white man who then proceded to take about everything.
You can sit over here and analyze life over there but it's not as simple as saying we shouldve done this or that when we don't understand their way of life.
Just like people don't understand why the A-bombs needed to be dropped to end WWII. To the Japanese -- not fighting and disobeying the Emperor was disobeying God. And they were VERY religious -- something it seems people in our country aren't and can't understand how other people can be.
It's complicated and glad I'm not in charge but I do believe we need to be there.
ironeagle2006
Active Member
That is the point I am making on Islam. If a Western Leader had the BALLS to wipe Mecca and the Mound of the Rock off the Face off the Map. THEN SAY YOU ATTACK US OUR ALLIES OR ISREAL AGAIN MEDINA IS NEXT that would pretty much solve the terroirst problem. Especially if we were holding the NATIONS THAT SPONSOR THE TERROR GROUPS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TERROR GROUPS ACTIONS. That was the point I was trying to make last night. There is no way in Hades that Iran Yemen or anyone is going to do CRAP when the last holy site in all of ISLAM is Medina the Birthplace of the Prophet. Now would you want to be the one that gave the money to Hezballah that is going to lead to your Nation being blamed by the Muslim world that the last place that was holy to Islam just got DESTROYED.
darthtang aw
Active Member
Originally Posted by ironeagle2006
http:///forum/post/3142401
That is the point I am making on Islam. If a Western Leader had the BALLS to wipe Mecca and the Mound of the Rock off the Face off the Map. THEN SAY YOU ATTACK US OUR ALLIES OR ISREAL AGAIN MEDINA IS NEXT that would pretty much solve the terroirst problem. Especially if we were holding the NATIONS THAT SPONSOR THE TERROR GROUPS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TERROR GROUPS ACTIONS. That was the point I was trying to make last night. There is no way in Hades that Iran Yemen or anyone is going to do CRAP when the last holy site in all of ISLAM is Medina the Birthplace of the Prophet. Now would you want to be the one that gave the money to Hezballah that is going to lead to your Nation being blamed by the Muslim world that the last place that was holy to Islam just got DESTROYED.
If terrorists Wiped New York from the face of the earth then told us that if we did not do as they say They would wipe out Los Angelos or D.C. do you think we would capitulate and not fight back? Your logic holds no historical truth....Historically anytime a group is threatened in such a manner they fight back harder. Your way would just incite and strengthen the terrorists and send more muslims to join them.
http:///forum/post/3142401
That is the point I am making on Islam. If a Western Leader had the BALLS to wipe Mecca and the Mound of the Rock off the Face off the Map. THEN SAY YOU ATTACK US OUR ALLIES OR ISREAL AGAIN MEDINA IS NEXT that would pretty much solve the terroirst problem. Especially if we were holding the NATIONS THAT SPONSOR THE TERROR GROUPS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE TERROR GROUPS ACTIONS. That was the point I was trying to make last night. There is no way in Hades that Iran Yemen or anyone is going to do CRAP when the last holy site in all of ISLAM is Medina the Birthplace of the Prophet. Now would you want to be the one that gave the money to Hezballah that is going to lead to your Nation being blamed by the Muslim world that the last place that was holy to Islam just got DESTROYED.
If terrorists Wiped New York from the face of the earth then told us that if we did not do as they say They would wipe out Los Angelos or D.C. do you think we would capitulate and not fight back? Your logic holds no historical truth....Historically anytime a group is threatened in such a manner they fight back harder. Your way would just incite and strengthen the terrorists and send more muslims to join them.
ironeagle2006
Active Member
Wrong look what happened in Japan in 1945 the Extremeists in the Military even after seeing 2 cities blown away by 2 Atomic weapons Yes they wanted to keep on fighting. However even Hirohito their Emporer saw that continued fighting was USELESS and ordered the ultimate Humliation in the eyes of the Japanese the Unconditonal Surrender of the Nation. Remember this was a nation that had No WORD FOR IT EVEN. The same thing would happen according to my buddies in the Muslim faith why. Who would want to be the head of the nation that was DIRECTLY Responsible for losing the last of what was holy to them as a faith.
Put it to you and I can Understand say our leaders were told do not attack Canada if you do the Statue of Liberty goes up and if you attack again Mt Rushmore would be Next. Well our leaders attacked anyway so we loose the Staute of Liberty and say so what. Can you imagine how many people would be at Washington D.C going if you attack again your OUT OF OFFICE and IN FRONT OF A FIRING SQUAD. Same thing over there no Muslim would risk losing the last holy shrine they have.
Put it to you and I can Understand say our leaders were told do not attack Canada if you do the Statue of Liberty goes up and if you attack again Mt Rushmore would be Next. Well our leaders attacked anyway so we loose the Staute of Liberty and say so what. Can you imagine how many people would be at Washington D.C going if you attack again your OUT OF OFFICE and IN FRONT OF A FIRING SQUAD. Same thing over there no Muslim would risk losing the last holy shrine they have.
darthtang aw
Active Member
Originally Posted by ironeagle2006
http:///forum/post/3142480
Wrong look what happened in Japan in 1945 the Extremeists in the Military even after seeing 2 cities blown away by 2 Atomic weapons Yes they wanted to keep on fighting. However even Hirohito their Emporer saw that continued fighting was USELESS and ordered the ultimate Humliation in the eyes of the Japanese the Unconditonal Surrender of the Nation. Remember this was a nation that had No WORD FOR IT EVEN. The same thing would happen according to my buddies in the Muslim faith why. Who would want to be the head of the nation that was DIRECTLY Responsible for losing the last of what was holy to them as a faith.
Put it to you and I can Understand say our leaders were told do not attack Canada if you do the Statue of Liberty goes up and if you attack again Mt Rushmore would be Next. Well our leaders attacked anyway so we loose the Staute of Liberty and say so what. Can you imagine how many people would be at Washington D.C going if you attack again your OUT OF OFFICE and IN FRONT OF A FIRING SQUAD. Same thing over there no Muslim would risk losing the last holy shrine they have.
You can't compare Japan to now. Here is why.
At the time the bombs were dropped on Jpan no one in the world could match that amount of sheer destruction and devastation. Japan had no choice as they did not have the military means nor capability to compete with such weaponry.
Also Iran has the capability to make a nuke....they have the equipment....based off what I am reading. Do you really think taking out Mecca would capitulate them when they can match our destructive capabilities? Iran would sell the info in a heart beat to al qaeda....might even fund the operation. Also N. Korea does not think to highly of us. The Islamic extremist leaders would find it easier to purchase such hardware from them as well.
Do you really think people that are willing to blow themselves up for virgins in heaven will be concerned with earthly shrines any further? Japan faced the destruction of their entire country.....Terrorists would face the destruction of a shrine which can be rebuilt....the site will still be there.....and that is what makes the area holy, not the structure.
The other thing you haven't thought about is the economic reprecussions. And you can't use the argument that if we pumped our own oil we wouldn't have to worry about it. Because we don't at this point. We would be paying 25 dollars a gallon since the arab world would get angry with us....and the easiest way to get back at us would be to cripple our economy. Not to mention 7/11 stores and taxi companies nationwide would be brought to a stand still.
http:///forum/post/3142480
Wrong look what happened in Japan in 1945 the Extremeists in the Military even after seeing 2 cities blown away by 2 Atomic weapons Yes they wanted to keep on fighting. However even Hirohito their Emporer saw that continued fighting was USELESS and ordered the ultimate Humliation in the eyes of the Japanese the Unconditonal Surrender of the Nation. Remember this was a nation that had No WORD FOR IT EVEN. The same thing would happen according to my buddies in the Muslim faith why. Who would want to be the head of the nation that was DIRECTLY Responsible for losing the last of what was holy to them as a faith.
Put it to you and I can Understand say our leaders were told do not attack Canada if you do the Statue of Liberty goes up and if you attack again Mt Rushmore would be Next. Well our leaders attacked anyway so we loose the Staute of Liberty and say so what. Can you imagine how many people would be at Washington D.C going if you attack again your OUT OF OFFICE and IN FRONT OF A FIRING SQUAD. Same thing over there no Muslim would risk losing the last holy shrine they have.
You can't compare Japan to now. Here is why.
At the time the bombs were dropped on Jpan no one in the world could match that amount of sheer destruction and devastation. Japan had no choice as they did not have the military means nor capability to compete with such weaponry.
Also Iran has the capability to make a nuke....they have the equipment....based off what I am reading. Do you really think taking out Mecca would capitulate them when they can match our destructive capabilities? Iran would sell the info in a heart beat to al qaeda....might even fund the operation. Also N. Korea does not think to highly of us. The Islamic extremist leaders would find it easier to purchase such hardware from them as well.
Do you really think people that are willing to blow themselves up for virgins in heaven will be concerned with earthly shrines any further? Japan faced the destruction of their entire country.....Terrorists would face the destruction of a shrine which can be rebuilt....the site will still be there.....and that is what makes the area holy, not the structure.
The other thing you haven't thought about is the economic reprecussions. And you can't use the argument that if we pumped our own oil we wouldn't have to worry about it. Because we don't at this point. We would be paying 25 dollars a gallon since the arab world would get angry with us....and the easiest way to get back at us would be to cripple our economy. Not to mention 7/11 stores and taxi companies nationwide would be brought to a stand still.
jackri
Active Member
Just like now, we're not fighing an uniformed army visibly marked out in the open. So instead of having 10,000 terrorists per say.. you have 1,000,000,0000 living in every country of the world in plain clothes mad at you. And no you can't pick them out by race along, just like you can't say a white person is automatically a christian.
Our culture is one that cannot handle 10,000 deaths in a war anymore -- we've lost around 4,000 in 8 years (very unfortunately) and the media comes completely unhinged.
The civil war we lost over 600,000 -- where battles you could lose 20,000 or more men. That was acceptable then, just like that is more acceptable to other countries now -- it is not for us.
Remember the emperor tried to rule the galaxy with his Death Star and fear of that battlestation would end any resistance. Did it work?
Our culture is one that cannot handle 10,000 deaths in a war anymore -- we've lost around 4,000 in 8 years (very unfortunately) and the media comes completely unhinged.
The civil war we lost over 600,000 -- where battles you could lose 20,000 or more men. That was acceptable then, just like that is more acceptable to other countries now -- it is not for us.
Remember the emperor tried to rule the galaxy with his Death Star and fear of that battlestation would end any resistance. Did it work?
zman1
Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3141741
We went in afghanistan to get Justice. .
Darth, it really was a pound of flesh we wanted - not justice per se. I wanted my pound, too.
The irony of this is that the majority of the terrorist were Saudi's. I have said this before - they have some explaining to do. But hey, we are in bed with them... You know the same place Bin Laden is from, too.
I for one believe that we supported Bin Laden while the Russians were fighting. I know we now deny it. But when have you ever known us not to take on helping so called freedom fighters against the Russians during the cold-war era...
http:///forum/post/3141741
We went in afghanistan to get Justice. .
Darth, it really was a pound of flesh we wanted - not justice per se. I wanted my pound, too.
The irony of this is that the majority of the terrorist were Saudi's. I have said this before - they have some explaining to do. But hey, we are in bed with them... You know the same place Bin Laden is from, too.
I for one believe that we supported Bin Laden while the Russians were fighting. I know we now deny it. But when have you ever known us not to take on helping so called freedom fighters against the Russians during the cold-war era...
darthtang aw
Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3142630
The irony of this is that the majority of the terrorist were Saudi's. I have said this before - they have some explaining to do. But hey, we are in bed with them... You know the same place Bin Laden is from, too.
I hate this talking point, as it is retarded and flawed. No offense.
Hitler was Austrian....
Place of birth is not a connection to criminal or world autrocities
http:///forum/post/3142630
The irony of this is that the majority of the terrorist were Saudi's. I have said this before - they have some explaining to do. But hey, we are in bed with them... You know the same place Bin Laden is from, too.
I hate this talking point, as it is retarded and flawed. No offense.
Hitler was Austrian....
Place of birth is not a connection to criminal or world autrocities
zman1
Active Member
Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
http:///forum/post/3142635
I hate this talking point, as it is retarded and flawed. No offense.
Hitler was Austrian....
Place of birth is not a connection to criminal or world autrocities
Just a good recruiting ground for terrorist that's the connection, but why is that?- What's the Saudi (monarchy) government doing about it....
http:///forum/post/3142635
I hate this talking point, as it is retarded and flawed. No offense.
Hitler was Austrian....
Place of birth is not a connection to criminal or world autrocities
Just a good recruiting ground for terrorist that's the connection, but why is that?- What's the Saudi (monarchy) government doing about it....
reefraff
Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3142630
Darth, it really was a pound of flesh we wanted - not justice per se. I wanted my pound, too.
The irony of this is that the majority of the terrorist were Saudi's. I have said this before - they have some explaining to do. But hey, we are in bed with them... You know the same place Bin Laden is from, too.
I for one believe that we supported Bin Laden while the Russians were fighting. I know we now deny it. But when have you ever known us not to take on helping so called freedom fighters against the Russians during the cold-war era...
Who denies we supported Bin Laden during the Russian invasion? I don't know that we specifically supported him but we did support those he was fighting with so I am sure he received some portion of that support.
http:///forum/post/3142630
Darth, it really was a pound of flesh we wanted - not justice per se. I wanted my pound, too.
The irony of this is that the majority of the terrorist were Saudi's. I have said this before - they have some explaining to do. But hey, we are in bed with them... You know the same place Bin Laden is from, too.
I for one believe that we supported Bin Laden while the Russians were fighting. I know we now deny it. But when have you ever known us not to take on helping so called freedom fighters against the Russians during the cold-war era...
Who denies we supported Bin Laden during the Russian invasion? I don't know that we specifically supported him but we did support those he was fighting with so I am sure he received some portion of that support.
darthtang aw
Active Member
Originally Posted by zman1
http:///forum/post/3142637
Just a good recruiting ground for terorist that's the connection, but why is that?- What's the Saudi (monarchy) government doing about it....
As is Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey, The U.S., afghanistan, Kuwait, Egypt, Somalia, Great Britain, India, and so on....
I think Saudi Arabia sticks out due to its prominence in the history of the islamic religion....
http:///forum/post/3142637
Just a good recruiting ground for terorist that's the connection, but why is that?- What's the Saudi (monarchy) government doing about it....
As is Iraq, Iran, Syria, Turkey, The U.S., afghanistan, Kuwait, Egypt, Somalia, Great Britain, India, and so on....
I think Saudi Arabia sticks out due to its prominence in the history of the islamic religion....
darthtang aw
Active Member
I am willing to give the general the benefit of the doubt. However, after reading this
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5335445.shtml
I feel we will lose afghanistan...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5335445.shtml
I feel we will lose afghanistan...
zman1
Active Member
I found an interesting timeline - I didn't search for the information about the .org itself, so take it with a grain of salt.
http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...ovietafghanwar
Gates has been around this region for a while, If it's the same Robert Gates
1978: CIA Begins Covert Action in Afghanistan The CIA begins covert action against the Communist government in Afghanistan, which is closely tied to the Soviet Union. Some time this year, the CIA begins training militants in Pakistan and beaming radio propaganda into Afghanistan. By April 1979, US officials are meeting with opponents of the Afghan government to determine their needs. [Blum, 1995, pp. 344] Robert Gates, who will become CIA Director in the early 1990s, will later recall that in a meeting on March 30, 1979, Under Secretary of Defense Walter Slocumbe wonders aloud whether there is “value in keeping the Afghan insurgency going, ‘sucking the Soviets into a Vietnamese quagmire.’” [Gates, 1996, pp. 145] In March 1979, there is a major revolt in Herat province, and in June and August there are large scale army mutinies. [Cooley, 2002, pp. 5] President Carter will formally approve covert aid to opponents of the government in July (see July 3, 1979), which will result in a Russian invasion in December (see December 8, 1979).
Entity Tags: Central Intelligence Agency, Robert M. Gates, Walter Slocumbe
Timeline Tags: War in Afghanistan
Category Tags: Soviet-Afghan War, Counterterrorism Action Before 9/11
http://www.historycommons.org/timeli...ovietafghanwar
Gates has been around this region for a while, If it's the same Robert Gates
1978: CIA Begins Covert Action in Afghanistan The CIA begins covert action against the Communist government in Afghanistan, which is closely tied to the Soviet Union. Some time this year, the CIA begins training militants in Pakistan and beaming radio propaganda into Afghanistan. By April 1979, US officials are meeting with opponents of the Afghan government to determine their needs. [Blum, 1995, pp. 344] Robert Gates, who will become CIA Director in the early 1990s, will later recall that in a meeting on March 30, 1979, Under Secretary of Defense Walter Slocumbe wonders aloud whether there is “value in keeping the Afghan insurgency going, ‘sucking the Soviets into a Vietnamese quagmire.’” [Gates, 1996, pp. 145] In March 1979, there is a major revolt in Herat province, and in June and August there are large scale army mutinies. [Cooley, 2002, pp. 5] President Carter will formally approve covert aid to opponents of the government in July (see July 3, 1979), which will result in a Russian invasion in December (see December 8, 1979).
Entity Tags: Central Intelligence Agency, Robert M. Gates, Walter Slocumbe
Timeline Tags: War in Afghanistan
Category Tags: Soviet-Afghan War, Counterterrorism Action Before 9/11