Must it be high tech?

[miulloj]

Originally Posted by ClownFiSH11
http:///forum/post/2501123
ur prbly gonna have to upgrade..
Well,
It hasbeen awhile and things are getting along nicely. The algae is beginning to grow a bit, everyone seems to have found their preferred place and there is no fin nipping evident. So far so good on the ich with no return. I have the tank stable at 1.021 and I think I am going to keep it there. I have a couple more very colorful RIFLs coming in next week from SmokerMike. That should really 'complete' the tank.
On a sadder note I quote from an e-mail I sent to the seller "OK, there is only one explanation ... The Rock Anemone balled up, fell off its perch, looked like it died, then took a giant dump and opened up, after being placed on its perch again, in glory. This all transpired over a couple days right after the shrimp disappeared. Poor little guy. He never had a chance with that mean old anemone. We had a moment of silence for him/her/it ...

"
Stay tuned!

 

[new2salt1]

1.021? An anemone?
Im all for trying out new things and going against the grain, but it seems like you are doing/saying things just to get reponses. IE - when all literature suggests a SG of 1.023-1.026, why set it at 1.021? Is there a reason, or is this another attempt to "cut costs?" (salt is cheap).
It makes no sense to me to stuff 4 fish in that tank. Suprise! A parasite was introduced! Outside light is a definate no-no. I have custom blinds in my fish room designed to keep out the sun.
Anyway, the stress put on the inhabitants of your tank - which is caused by low SG, low lighting, high nutrients (most likely nitrates and phosphates) and territory issues is not needed. If you want to do something different, try making a tank where one fish owns the whole tank and he is properly cared for.
That seems to be a rarity these days.

 

[miulloj]

Hmmm, well everyone seems healthy and happy. I was recommended by the seller to drop the salinity to avoid illnesses and the research supports this (cost of salt is not the issue here). Fish themselves actually are stressed by processing the salt load in seawater as their internal system is at a lower concentration. However, there is a bit of a conflict in a low salinity environment when it comes to the inverts. They prefer conditions more closely matching seawater so the compromise is the concentration I am at after looking into the research, and discussing this with other animal keepers that have experienced higher concentrations as conducive to disease in fish and the lowest concentrations that allow for viable inverts. There really is no 'safe effective chemical cure', no matter what medicine selling companies say, for a mixed reef environment.

 

[perfectdark]

Originally Posted by miulloj
http:///forum/post/2506716
Hmmm, well everyone seems healthy and happy. I was recommended by the seller to drop the salinity to avoid illnesses and the research supports this (cost of salt is not the issue here). Fish themselves actually are stressed by processing the salt load in seawater as their internal system is at a lower concentration. However, there is a bit of a conflict in a low salinity environment when it comes to the inverts. They prefer conditions more closely matching seawater so the compromise is the concentration I am at after looking into the research, and discussing this with other animal keepers that have experienced higher concentrations as conducive to disease in fish and the lowest concentrations that allow for viable inverts. There really is no 'safe effective chemical cure', no matter what medicine selling companies say, for a mixed reef environment.
Hmmm i am wondering where you sources of information are comming from. While there is no "ideal" Salinity for a typical setup the range is definatly something you should be within. Yours is definatly lower than the recomended low end should be. Depending on location obviously, but most coral reefs salinity can be seen between 1.023 to 1.028. The theory that lower salinity will keep diseses and or parasites away is true but not at the levels your at. A hypo salinity level of 1.009 is where IMO this would start to take effect. IMO your inverts and anemone will suffer more for a lower salinity than your fish may and I stress may be stessed from a higher one... There are articles written about fish found in shipping containers neglected for some time where the salinity due to evaporation has risen to levels of 1.055 no signs of stress were seen. This scenario was observed and written about by Bob Fenner.

 

[miulloj]

Thanks for keeping in touch. Now now, we were supposed to be keeping away from all the techie stuff as there is plenty to go around elsewhere, but to keep everyone happy I encourage you to check out this link. There are many others but this one has plenty of cross references and additional readings in it. Remember, this is a journey. As we go along and see how things progress we can see if any or all of this is viable. Mostly the virility of the inhabitants will be the acid test (what use is costly technology and testing if they are well, no matter what the 'results' indicate?).
This tank has only what are considered hardy easy to keep species from inverts up to fish. That was part of the initial design that was congruent with the goal of a low tech high impact "bang for you buck" system. I hope you all keep interested as I am and soon, after the new RIFLs come in the mail next week I will post another pic.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Personally, I think that you are going about this all wrong. Let's start with your aquarium. Your aquarium is a tall tank, this means that there is a low concentration of oxygen at the bottom of the aquarium. The second thing is that your whisper filter is great for freshwater aquaria, however in saltwater systems you need more filtration, coupled with maybe even a biowheel.
The internal flow in your aquarium is not sufficiant. Recommended by many experienced aquarists is around 10x the volume of the tank. Flow prevents a build up of detritus and fish waste that can accumulate on the crushed oyster shell concentrate and eventually cause problems with cyanobacteria and hair algae because of the low O2 and not enough flow.
Your lighting is not adequate for corals, including any lighting that the tank is getting from the sun. To keep ANY corals, even low light mushrooms and zoanthids, you need to have at least the correct spectrum of lighting. Try to find a cheap system that has 10k daylights and 420nm actinic blue lights. I hate that you are slowly killing your corals for the sake of your own personal study, when we are here telling you that it is wrong.
Yes, we are going to have to get involved with the "techie" stuff, because eventually you will have to learn it.
By the way, literature on the saltwater trade is not everything, peoples experiences account for the bulk of what has been tride and true. Also, don't pretend to know everything just because you have 35 years of experience in freshwater. Freshwater is totally different then saltwater.
You are going to have so many problems, but I wish you the best of luck!

 

[vmartino]

people have done what you are doing over and over and over, and failed, over and over and over... you arent a pioneer, you are just slowly killing things.

 

[snakeblitz33]

Originally Posted by vmartino
http:///forum/post/2507725
people have done what you are doing over and over and over, and failed, over and over and over... you arent a pioneer, you are just slowly killing things.
Amen.

 

[miulloj]

So be it? I do not pretend to know everything about anything that is worthwhile to learn as it is too in depth and interestingly changing all the time. I think your depth observation is clear and though you all try and input your thoughts and opinions, it looks to me that this site is not very interested in this project in any real encouraging way no matter what the outcomes. It's my risk, difficulties and challenges, not your's. So I may choose to stop posting considering the response.

 

[ino]

miulloj, you do have the right to experiment. However, I believe that you should also take the advice of people more experienced than yourself. I have done many low-tech setups, with success, and yes, it can be done. But it must be done wisely. With consideration to what will and will not thrive, not just survive, in that environment.
You are trying to act as if you are a cool rebel who is trying something amazing, but I must say that this is not true. You are being foolish, and I do not say this lightly. I am not one to abstractly insult someone, and please do not take this as such. I say this to give you a wake up call. If you do not do *proper* research, then you are not experimenting. If you do not wish to take the advice of experienced aquarists, then you have no business here.

 

[miulloj]

Now we are getting somewhere. I do not do this for my ego and it is silly really to think so. Since you offer that you have done this before and above that you claim that it has been done over and over again, clue me in this discussion about it as that is the whole purpose of posting here, to share the experience and knowledge as I do not see anywhere where this is an active discussion. Ino, please tell me of how you have done this in the past and constructively thus encouragingly what to expect, consider (I have considered all of you input to date people) or even maybe what I may be doing new or what odd new results come about after a few more weeks, months ...

 

[ino]

I will tell you exactly what is going to happen, miulloj. Your flame scallop is going to die, slowly but surely. Your damsels will do well, if you continue to care for them properly, as will the basslet. If you have an outbreak of ich, they will all die. This is up to chance. If you choose to get any corals without upgrading your lights and filtration, the corals will slowly but surely die. Your clowns may be okay for a while, but the bioload will get to them and they will also perish. Your inverts will be okay if you keep the water quality good, which is hard to do with cheap filtration. The anemone is doomed.
That is the future of your tank, my friend, and I speak from personal experience and from common sense.
Now, my successful tanks have had several things in common:
sufficient filtration
low bioload
good enough lights and smart placement for corals and anemones
water changes
again, low bioload
live rock
heaters
smart choices in livestock
low bioload
getting the picture? Is all of this necessary? No. You can have a successful tank with the following:
10 gal tank
filter
flourescent lights
low bioload
water changes
low bioload
See where I'm going with this? Think about the ocean. It's huge, right? That's where these fish were supposed to be living. They have room to move, and to get away from each other. The corals have the best source of light God ever made: the sun. They have a good flow from the currents. We're trying our best to replicate that, but it's impossible. And if you don't come close enough, you can't blame the stuff for dying.

 

[ino]

Sadly, whenever you are given advice, you either ignore it or say "it's too late for that". I told you what is going to happen, and I speak no lies.

 

[miulloj]

OK,
Here is where we are at. I have heating and keep it at 75. I do regular water changes at 3 gal ea usu 2/mo on a 15g tank. I have read that you can keep scallops alive by spot feeding which I do with various media about each day using a baster with an extension tube. Everyone enjoys eating from that although you are right I am not sure he will be a long term inhabitant. I had already received him by the time I found out that they are mixed in results.
I did increase my lighting from standard "cool white" CF to broader spectrum and placed the two mushroom Florida's under the brighter one but lower in the tank because they are purported to need a low flow. They open up grandly each day (BTW how long does it take for them to totally anchor themselves?). The filter has a bio sponge in it (never gets removed or cleaned) and flows at 150 GPH which is supposed to be adequate no?
I am not going to introduce any other type of corals as these seem to do better with lower flow and fluorescents. The anemone is placed high and close to the side glass that also gets a lot of natural light. It is a rock anemone and should not require a lot. I only have one clown.
Now that things are clear, am I so far off that I am doomed (or the animals are that is)? What confuses me is that everyone looks fine, are eating and active. How long are any of these inhabitant supposed to live in a captive environment? Why would they slowly die rather than die in a few weeks or over two months or so?

 

[ino]

This is the problem- you never did your research beforehand. You can say you did, certainly, but you just said that you found out about the scallops afterwards, so you did not research beforehand. You have stocked inappropriate animals at inappropriate levels. The anemone can't get all it needs from that light, period. The bioload is too large. A 15 gal can't accommodate that many fish *long term* without a sump or skimmer, and even with it would be difficult. And the goal of our hobby is to have animals thrive, not live. Thriving entails long-term survival approaching or exceeding the span found in the wild.
Mushrooms may be fine. The damsels may be fine. The crabs/snails may be fine. But allow me to stress *may be*. If ich is introduced, the fish will die. If your lighting turns out to be inadequate, even mushrooms, hardy as they are, will perish. Inverts need pristine water quality, which is hard to provide with a bioload that heavy.
It all comes down to this: do you want a beautiful and sustainable ecosystem that will bring you joy in years to come, or do you want an "experiment" in which fish and other animals will perish?

 

[ino]

btw, when corals are in "full bloom" (as some people mistake it), it often means that they are desperately stretching for light.

 

[miulloj]

Ahhhh, now that last bit of information is very interesting. The one standard green Ric does that for part of the mid day. I was wondering about that. Ok, I will absorb this information and update from time to time if anyone is interested.

 

[miulloj]

And Thank You.

 

[ino]

Anytime. I can appreciate a person who will absorb the advice of others, and as long as you keep an open mind to others' experiences, I'm sure all of us, including those much more experienced than I, will be willing to help you.

 

[vmartino]

The only reason i criticize what you are doing is because people are trying to give you constructive criticism, and you seem to be arguing against it. Even with a rock anenome, regular fluorescent lights are not sufficient, and ambient daylight, especially after coming through a window, and the glass of your tank will benefit little besides nuisance algae. If you were to lessen the bioload a little, maybe take the anenome out and one or two fish, and put some power compacts on that tank, maybe just 3 watts per gallon, your tank will be fine. People have been trying to say this, but you seem to be trying to say they are wrong. They are right though. And yes all of these fish may seem fine now. But as they grow, so does the bioload, the water quality will decrease, your ammonia will most likely spike and your nitrates im guessing will rise and rise. Your tank will most likely become over run with algae, and your fish will slowly decline in health, unless some are removed. I am apeaking from experience. I have experienced a tank crash first hand, on many occasions actually, as i work in a fish store and i have seen 12 gallon nanos where 6 or 7 fish have been thrown in. I'm not trying to bash, just dissapointed that you arent heeding the advice of others that posted earlier in the thread.