my experiment with sugar dosing.

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by prime311
http:///forum/post/2738301
Dosing sugar definitely works, I guarantee that it reduces Nitrates.
Prime, hes been dosing sugar and Nitrates still highly abundant, how is it that u can Guarantee sugar dosing to be effective???? and not the rest of the biofiltration available in tank. All sugar does it adds carbonate to a tank.. You can add any type of acetate/ethanoate to achive the same results..

 

[aztec reef]

[QUOTE=MoneyMan;273818
Dosing sugar/vodka w/o a good skimmer is a disaster waiting to happen. All you are doing is reduce the oxygen level and mask the nitrate/phosphate in the water column in bacterial biomass.
which later decomposes and skrews your water chemistry...

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by RotaryGeek
http:///forum/post/2738133
how would i go about testing my frozen food? thaw it in a cup and test the water it was in? and yeah sorry about the rant, jus seams like more people are against change even if its good. anyways /rant.

I'm all about change, but just to let u know..
All commercial foods adds Phosphates to your water , wether u rinse it or not..

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by RotaryGeek
http:///forum/post/2738000
If that was the case, nobody would have had any luck at all with sugar/vodka/vinegar dosing and it would have died before the second person saw it. This process must work otherwise there wouldn't be huge threads on another site where lots of people have done it and had good results with it. In fact, i haven't seen anybody who has had a bad experience with sugar dosing yet. Not saying they aren't out there and that this is fool proof and perfectly safe, just that with all the research i have read, and people i have talked to about this, nobody has shown me a link to anybody having their tank crash becuase of dosing with sugar. Even the people who have posted in this very thread who have done it didn't say anything about having bad effects on their tank. It has shown to work effectivly at reducing nitrates and phosphates, and plenty of people still disagree with this process, and that was my purpose for this thread in the first place. Many people have either never heard about it, or brush it off as something only idiots do and that the absolute only way to have low nitrates is with a dsb/macro/waterchanges. I made this thread to bring this to the attention of the masses of people who are either skeptical at best (like me) or just plain didn't know this existed in the first place, becuase if this works, i see no reason why people should discriminate against this process just becuase it isn't the norm. I understand it isn't very well researched just yet, and its still an imerging technique, but without people to try it and actually moniter results and compile them for someone to analyze, it would die out and never become a viable way to reduce nitrates and phosphates. Sorry if I came off rude there, but im tired of people hinting at that this will not work and that i should stop and resume nothing but waterchanges. I understand that as of now, water changes are the best way of doing pretty much anything, but im not a closed minded person, and this hobby is still growing leaps and bounds all the time, but without experimenting nothing will change and we will forever be stuck with weekly or monthly water changes (not that they are bad, becuase they are a great way to get trace elements and anything else that isn't added directly to the tank). I am just trying to spread this possibly very usefull information to the mass of people who don't know about it for them to make there own judgment on. But for every one person who has done this and had good results, there is 100 closed minded people who have some reason why they don't like it even though they haven't tried it, and won't try it just becuase its not a proven method. Again, sorry if i sounded rude, but i had to say something.

So you're saying that someone has been using sugar dosing to control Nitrates without the presence of any macro algeas,water changes, denitrifying bacterias??
Should we start adding table salt to a reef as a supplement of Iodine?

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by prime311
http:///forum/post/2738307
I guess I missed where you said you didn't have a protein skimmer, thats kind of a bad problem. You should get a skimmer and then you might not even need to use sugar. I don't know why your nitrates are so high, sky high like that doesnt make any sense. I have a feeling your tests are bad are something is seriously messed up in your tank.
A skimmer does Nada against Nitrates..

 

[reefkprz]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
http:///forum/post/2738449
A skimmer does Nada against Nitrates..
well not quite.
A skimmer prevents nitrates by removing nitrogen causing organics before they become nitrates.
a skimmer wont combat existing nitrates.

 

[aztec reef]

exacly my point, Reef.. As u can tell the Nitrates still exist..despite the sugar dosing. Which i though was Guaranteed and proven to get rid of it..

 

[rotarygeek]

i do have a skimmer, its a skilter 250. pretty much useless before sugar dosing, but now its filling the collection cup in about 2 days with a almost coffee colored gunk. doesnt smell at all though..... could be my cold messing with me though. nobody else has complained either though.

 

[sly]

Originally Posted by RotaryGeek
http:///forum/post/2738133
how would i go about testing my frozen food? thaw it in a cup and test the water it was in? and yeah sorry about the rant, jus seams like more people are against change even if its good. anyways /rant.
Yes, test the water that you used to thaw your food. See if it has nitrates.

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by RotaryGeek
http:///forum/post/2738877
i do have a skimmer, its a skilter 250. pretty much useless before sugar dosing, but now its filling the collection cup in about 2 days with a almost coffee colored gunk. doesnt smell at all though..... could be my cold messing with me though. nobody else has complained either though.
Do u ever stoped and think, it maybe due to the sugar dosing??
cause its not nitrates..

 

[rotarygeek]

i know its becuase of the sugar dosing. it would take a week to fill half way up before with a light colored water, now its pulling out some pretty good stuff.

 

[rotarygeek]

well nitrates are still high today, about 80 to 160 ppm. i didnt dose sugar today, but i did check the levels on the water i thaw my frozen food in. if there are any nitrates in it, its just barely above zero. so no notrates coming in via tap water or my frozen food. i dont have a big bioload, just 4 smaller fish. i dont have a large cleanup crew, just about 10 crabs, a emerald crab, and 3 turbo snails. im trying to think of where these nitrates are coming from, i only feed about half a frozen cube of mysis shrimp every other day, and i have been feeding a small square of seaweed every day, which my lawnmower blenny still wont touch. i can figure out where they are coming from. a water chage is getting done today, with ro water from walmart. the water will be tested before its put into my tank also.

 

[prime311]

Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
http:///forum/post/2738465
exacly my point, Reef.. As u can tell the Nitrates still exist..despite the sugar dosing. Which i though was Guaranteed and proven to get rid of it..

What does this have to do with my post though. I suggested the guy got a skimmer to reduce nitrate(reduction through prevention). It doesn't invalidate my point, unless you want to start arguing semantics. Also, I guarantee sugar dosing works. Guarantee!! Just cause Rotary is doing something wrong or has bad test kits(API SUCKS!!) doesn't mean it doesnt work. There is tons of real life experiences with sugar dosing out there, including my own, as well as scientific evidence proving how it works from the reef chemistry master himself, Randy Holmes-Farley. Although FWIW Randy does not recommend sugar dosing over more proven and safer nitrate reduction methods.

 

[sly]

Originally Posted by RotaryGeek
http:///forum/post/2739516
im trying to think of where these nitrates are coming from, i only feed about half a frozen cube of mysis shrimp every other day, and i have been feeding a small square of seaweed every day, which my lawnmower blenny still wont touch.
Does your sump/fuge have any sand in it and if so, how much?

 

[aztec reef]

Originally Posted by prime311
http:///forum/post/2739660
What does this have to do with my post though. I suggested the guy got a skimmer to reduce nitrate(reduction through prevention). It doesn't invalidate my point, unless you want to start arguing semantics. Also, I guarantee sugar dosing works. Guarantee!! Just cause Rotary is doing something wrong or has bad test kits(API SUCKS!!) doesn't mean it doesnt work. There is tons of real life experiences with sugar dosing out there, including my own, as well as scientific evidence proving how it works from the reef chemistry master himself, Randy Holmes-Farley. Although FWIW Randy does not recommend sugar dosing over more proven and safer nitrate reduction methods.
Well, i can easily debunk this theory.. Apperantly the skimmer isn't preventing anything, cause nitrates are the by-product of organic/inorganic wastes..(ammonia,nitrites ).
Also the chemistry master is leaving a loop hole.. sugar dosing's effectiveness on removing nitrates from an aquarium lacks scientific background and the claims are flimsy...variables are astronomical to speculate..
Of course he recomends more proven methods, cause most proven methods happend naturally and they already exist in all aquariums and in nature..
Untill someone proves that sugar dosing is effective in a system that has no Denitrifying processes, then i'll jump into the wagon.. this might be a little hard to prove since Denitrifying colonies exist in LR, sand, and all anaerobic places..
Nitrifiying filters and nitrifying bacterial colonies should prevent nitrates accumulation ..
denitrifying bacterial colonies take care of the nitrates that were not processed by nitrification..
Water changes prevent both, the accumulation of organic/inorganic wastes & gets rid of already existing nitrates..

 

[prime311]

Have you even read his information on it Aztec? He doesn't recommend other methods because sugar/vodka dosing isn't effective, he recommends other methods because they don't contain the inherent risk of O2 depletion and dangerously low levels of Nitrate and Phos for Corals.
>>>Untill someone proves that sugar dosing is effective in a system that has no Denitrifying processes
This is impossible because the chemical found in sugar and vodka(I forget what it is offhand) fuels anaerobic bacteria growth and this is how the nitrate is reduced. Honestly, I'm just flabbergasted that you can sit here and deny that it even works when its proven time and again that it does.

 

[rotarygeek]

ok so today i didnt get a chance to test the water or dose sugar. the inmates at work hav just been running me to the ground these last two days. i didnt wake up till 11 this morning. and we are expecting a shipment of 238 inmates from the coastline where they are evacuating everybody, so im on call for mandatory over time. prison life is a b3@tch. on a side note, my girl bought me a yellow tang yesterday. just a juvi one, fits in well with everybody. wish i would have had a chance to qt him before he went into the display, but alas, its done now. i guess this gives me a good reason to break out the 125 gallon i have laying around for an upgrade later. i know that they can be effected by high nitrates, so ill be doing large water changes to bring it down. i ordered a 160 gallon bucket of io salt and a reef master test kit today, should get it soon. so i guess since i have missed two day straight ill go back to dosing after a large water change. ill start over dosing at just an 1/8th tsb once i get it done. and for all you people who said this wont work, im not stopping the experiment, just putting it on hold for a couple days till i can start over again.

 

[prime311]

Rotary I found some information that said the bacterial blooms could be dependant on both nitrate and phosphate, so if you have no phosphate in your tank then the effectiveness of dosing could be minimal. You also might want to consider trying ethanol rather then sugar.

 

[aztec reef]

Its your tank its your choice! but i don't see a point on doing something that happends naturally..Prime, all types of algeas/bacterial blooms are fueled or dependant on Nitrates,Nitrites,Ammonia,phosphates, and all the organic/inorganic compounds.. i thought you already new this ?? since most people learn this in rookie era..let me enlighten u

I'l make your day and agree that it does work... But read this slowly so u can comprehend..
Randy and the rest of the "sugar dosing gang" use sugar as a Carbohydrate aka monosaccharide, other forms of this are candy,honey,syrup,glucose,fructose,dextrose and every component or word containing "ose" at the end..
And what are carbohydrates used for???
Fuel for metabolism of the bio-organisms. Some organisms use sunlight as a carbohydrate(fuel). Most key biochemicals necessary for metabolism ocurr naturaly, through the processes of nucleic acids such as RNA, DNA and the series of enzyme-catalyzed chemical reactions of the citric acid cycle which is a process that takes place in aerobic organisms aka Metabolic pathway which involve in the conversation of carbohydrates,fats,proteins into co2 and h20 to generate a form of usable energy..
Key biochemicals that are essential in animals,plants,microbes are made of 3 classes of molecules: Carbohydrates, ammino acids,lipids aka fats..
All of which are present in ALL Foods(specially junk food).
Foods provide organic components that are made of ammino acids and polypeptydes such as but not limited to phosphates, eventhough phosphate ion is a Polyatomic ion, many phosphates are not soluble in water..
This Biological polymers are macromolecular parts of ALL living organisms.
All organisms are constantly exposed to compounds that they cannot use as foods(energy)thus they accumulate in cells, this damaging compounds are Xenobiotics
Other processes are the reaction in the pathway of the citric cycle include but not limited to: Glycolysis and pyruvate oxydation, oxydative phosphoryation & cell fermentation.
Anyways, the natural processes are Astronomical.. but as far as the sugar goes, its just a carbohydrate.. same as frozen/raw/dry ocean foods.
Now, Vodka or should i say alcohol or vinegar?? whatever floats your boat!!
All this acetic acids contain ethanol..Vinegar is made via the fermentation of vodka or any type of ethanol, All alcoholic beverages contain ethanol, even acetone( so i wont be surprised if people start using fingernail polish remover)

All of this Acetic acids are carboxylic acids(similar to formic acid)...All of this are Acetates which are already produced and excreted by certain bacterias(naturally).. However, acetic acid is a component used as a mild antibacterial agent.. it is also used as a popular form such as baking soda+vinegar.. So in short it is used as a buffer to achive alkalis..
The acetyl group, derived from acetic acid, is fundamental to the biochemistry of virtually all forms of life. When bound to coenzyme A it is central to the metabolism of carbohydrates and fats. However, the concentration of free acetic acid in cells is kept at a low level to avoid disrupting the control of the pH of the cell contents. Unlike longer-chain carboxylic acids (the fatty acids), acetic acid does not occur in natural triglycerides. However, the artificial triglyceride triacetin (glycerin triacetate) is a common food additive, and is found in cosmetics and topical medicines...
This new trend of humanoid food additives in the marine aquarium is kind of lousy, as they remind me of the large hosts of quick-fixes and chemicals the lfs tryes to sell u.. The good thing about this, is that you dont have to spend much mula and you only have to go as far as your pantry..now thats priceless.

 

[prime311]

See now we're on the same page. I was never trying to say it was anything but a quick fix. As to this.
Originally Posted by Aztec Reef
http:///forum/post/2740866
Prime, all types of algeas/bacterial blooms are fueled or dependant on Nitrates,Nitrites,Ammonia,phosphates, and all the organic/inorganic compounds.. i thought you already new this ?? since most people learn this in rookie era..

I did know that already, I'd think thatd be clear from my previous posts. I hadn't seen any tests to show that a shortage of phosphate could prevent a significant drop in nitrate. There was nothing that suggested it would need to be a 1:1 ratio or anything like that for the bacteria to bloom. I did read some evidence, maybe not conclusive proof via testing, but at least something to suggest that low phos could hamper a significant nitrate drop which might account for rotary's results.