My first Sump ...many questions ...hear are a few :-)

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saxman

Guest
True...and there really isn't a lot of room in a 20 gal. I'm so used to running externals now that I automatically "go there" in my head. Come to think of it, we only have one system we designed that's using a submersible. It's a custom split 40B growout tank and it's running a QO 4000 due to the way the returns are reduced and split.
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Eh, I don't see why it would be a waste of money to get a mag 9.5. You could reasonably accomplish the same results with a mag 7 I suppose.
What I did just then was list what materials I used for MY home made sump. Not exactly what I would recommend for YOUR sump. I use a Rio pump because they are cheap, easy to replace and I usually have four or five laying around at a time.
A siphon overflow will only loose siphon if you do not provide enough flow from your return pump. Not enough flow and bubbles form in the Utube, causing a siphon break and water on the floor. When it comes to external overflow boxes, I prefer running a larger pump with a relief valve (for other equipment etc as well) and have too much flow than not enough. To me, it's just paying a little extra for insurance.
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBlitz33 http:///t/387962/my-first-sump-many-questions-hear-are-a-few/20#post_3418492
Eh, I don't see why it would be a waste of money to get a mag 9.5. You could reasonably accomplish the same results with a mag 7 I suppose.
What I did just then was list what materials I used for MY home made sump. Not exactly what I would recommend for YOUR sump. I use a Rio pump because they are cheap, easy to replace and I usually have four or five laying around at a time.
A siphon overflow will only loose siphon if you do not provide enough flow from your return pump. Not enough flow and bubbles form in the Utube, causing a siphon break and water on the floor. When it comes to external overflow boxes, I prefer running a larger pump with a relief valve (for other equipment etc as well) and have too much flow than not enough. To me, it's just paying a little extra for insurance.
Right on. It's not an ungodly waste of energy. Just trying to think along the lines of a budget minded hobbyist. Another member here just build a 20g sump for his 75g tank. The Rio 600gph pump that he put on there was too strong and creating huge micro bubble issue that have been driving him crazy. When he put his other Rio 300GPH pump on there they went away. He's tried a couple options so far like installing an elbow on the intake of the pump to pull water directly off the bottom of the return chamber but that didn't help. Shawn's making him a bubble tower for the drain line on the skimmer side of the sump to see if that helps. Personally after seeing a couple of these smaller builds done I'm thinking it's more of a baffle issue with such a small return chamber area. Water flowing over the last baffle instead of going under may be the issue here. So he's trying all options first before tearing anything out. A close loop system didn't really seem to me like it was going to happen here so I figured the o.p. would be adding some powerheads anyway. Otherwise I just don't see much of a need to run more than 300-400gph through the sump. But I understand you're guy's logic on going with a larger pump just incase. Nothing terribly wrong with that at all, if you need to dial it back then so be it.
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm having a small microbubble problem in my display tank right now, but it's being created by my algae scrubber. I already built a home made bubble tower for my overflows output, and it is really working well. I'm using a Rio 1100 (300gph) as the return pump on my 20g high DT, and I'm having a microbubble issue! I guess I can opt for the elbow and if that doesn't do it, I can turn down the flow and add another baffle with some EPDM. Ugh,... the things we go through for our tanks. lol!
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
Oh, and ... $40 more for 10+ years of insurance isn't that bad. I would opt for the 9.5, even if it would take me longer to save up for the pump. Best to learn patience sooner than later in this hobby. lol.
 

sundance2011

New Member
Got a phosphate reactor but one of the tubes in the lid is loose. Not worth taking back for, an easy fix I'm just not sure what cement will be OK to use. Do you think polystyrene model cement will be OK. If not what do you suggest? Would silicon RTV be better?
 

sundance2011

New Member

Is it the drain line or input line of the reactor?
Not sure why that would matter but it's the drain line,more accurately, the return line.
 

sundance2011

New Member
More questions ...sorry but i want to get this right the first time ....probably not but at lease close. I am not real keen on spending $200 on a skimmer. I have seen them on Ebay for $40 to $60 and saw a Sea Clone tonight in the local Pet Club store for $140 ($70 to $90 online). Is the Sea Clone OK, what about the ones on Ebay for under $100?
Thanks
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
SOME people say Seaclones work, I've never got them to work at all. In the hobby, many people call em' Seaclowns. Piece of junk if you ask me.
The skimmer depends on the brand and the size tank it can handle.
I don't even run a skimmer on my tank, or other tanks I've had in the past. I think I've only used one skimmer on a 55g reef a long time ago, back when I first started. I use/used macroalgae in refugiums, really deep sand beds, algae scrubbers, water changes, low bioloads and abundance of live rock and high flow rates... You don't have to have a skimmer at all. I'm just saying - there are other options out there. lol.
 

sundance2011

New Member

I use/used macroalgae in refugiums, really deep sand beds, algae scrubbers, water changes, low bioloads and abundance of live rock and high flow rates... You don't have to have a skimmer at all. I'm just saying - there are other options out there. lol.


That sounds like a much better option. Right now I only have two fish and Coral are not figured into the bio-load are they? I would consider getting 2 maybe 3 more fish in the future but that would be it. That would be my next project after I get the sump going, a refulgent. I can see and understand the mechanics of the sump, refugium and deep sand bed but i don't understand how they all work together. Is all of this part of your sump or is the refugium another component separate from the sump? What about the deep sand bed, again a separate component or part of one multifunctional unit?
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
lol, now we are opening a whole new can o' worms.
Refugiums can be set up as a part of the sump or even a totally separate tank. Some refugiums can even be pretty enough to be display tanks! If you do get a separate tank for a refugium, get it drilled for a 1" bulkhead so that it's easier to plumb into your system/sump. Corals ARE part of the bioload. You have to feed your corals like you feed your fish... some LPS readily take feedings of mysis and brine shrimp. Other corals prefer live cultures of phytoplankton and rotifers. More difficult corals to feed, feed almost exclusively on zooplankton. For the beginner/novice aquarist, a small bottle of liquid refrigerated live phytoplankton is a good supplement for filter feeding corals and other inverts.
A sump is basically a small container to hold all of your equipment and excess water when you turn off your return pump. That's as simple of a definition as I can state. A refugium can be part of the sump, but doesn't necessarily have to be - as long as the sump can hold all of the excess water from both your display and your refugium - go with a separate tank for a refugium - heck, you could put decorative macroalgaes, seahorses, various hermit crabs, filter feeders, etc in your refugium. A refugium is used to manage excess nitrate and phosphate (dissolved organic nutrients) by way of growing macroalgaes. Macroalgae takes the nitrate and phosphate into it's tissues, where you can readily harvest it out of your refugium. (some people bag and sell it, but there are restrictions) It's also a great place for copepods and other zooplankton to hide and thrive without predation by fishes and other inverts. Refugiums are on a light timer that is opposite of your display tank. A refugium gets about 16 hours of light a day, and your display tank gets the other 8. The reason it's on an opposite timer is that it helps stabilize pH.
Deep sand beds and really deep sand beds can be used in refugiums, I have seen it done before - however, long term it's not really a viable solution to denitrification. Over time, anaerobic bacteria breaks down nitrate into nitrogen gas and secretes hydrogen sulfide (deposits it in black clumps that you see at the bottom of the really deep sand bed) hydrogen sulfide can be leached back into the aquarium if something - anything disturbs the sandbed that far down... it will cause a tank crash. (I've seen it happen!) The way modern day aquarists use really deep sand beds is in 5g buckets (usually leftover salt buckets. You would put one PVC water feeding tube in the top of the bucket, on a very low setting so as not to disturb the sand - and a bulkhead in the side or bottom of the bucket (with the standpipe all the way to the top) to drain the bucket. Most of these systems have to incorporate TWO BUCKETS. You will have to take one bucket every year or every other year and clean it out and wash it up and/or replace the sand and leave the other bucket still running on the system. Now days, there are even better methods of nitrate removal than this - but since you asked ....
I have to add this one on here because it's my favorite thing to use... an algae scrubber. Algae scrubbers use a roughed up plastic screen that has water flowing over it and a couple of CFL bulbs that shine light at it. It grows hair algae and other algaes to remove nitrate and phosphate from the system. It also has the capacity to cool your water, superoxygenate your water and stabilize your pH. It also grows copepods and removes heavy metals from your system. It does not pull out coral food like protein skimmers do - it just sucks up inorganic and organic nitrate and phosphate. Though, it has to be built correctly, and the screen has to be cleaned every 7 days without fail. They also cost a little bit more in electricity per month - but the benefits to me outweigh the cons.
So, in summation, A sump is a container of water that is used to house equipment and water overflow. A refugium is used for nitrate and phosphate removal by way of growing macroalgae and stableizes pH. Really Deep Sand Beds are no longer necessary or debateable - and have their place in aquaria, however there are better ways of dealing with waste then this currently. Algae scrubbers do not remove coral food and can only benefit your aquarium - and can even be used in conjunction with a skimmer.
Blah. It's like 1AM right now and here I am on SWF.com instead of in bed. Can someone say insomnia?
 

snakeblitz33

Well-Known Member
As for the reactor, Do not use RTV sealant. It's toxic when submerged in water.
Me, personally, I would try some PVC Cleaner and Cement on it before I would silicone. If it doesn't stick then it doesn't stick. But, that clear vinyl and gray plastic is well... plastic based. You could just try PVCing it together just to see what happens. But, wait to do it and let someone else chime in just to be sure. If it were me, I'de slap the glue on there and get after it - but it ain't me. lol.
How bad does my southern accent come out in my posts??!!
 

2quills

Well-Known Member
RVT 103 and 108 are what professional tank builders use and are safe. Actually at least two other brands of silicone marketed to hobbyists are RVT. Just have to make sure its one of those two. One is black and one is clear. Might be able to get away with the all purpose cement to fix the reactor. Found in plumbing isles at hardware and home improvement stores. Or plastic epoxy.
 

acrylic51

Active Member

Is it the drain line or input line of the reactor?
Not sure why that would matter but it's the drain line,more accurately, the return line.
I ask this question to determine how much pressure it would be under.... Would in my mind dictate the adhesive I'd use to seal it.
 
S

saxman

Guest
FWIW, way back when, I ran a Sea Clone, but in order to get it not to spew ,microbobbles everywhere, I had to mod a bubble trap onto it. A skimmer can pretty much be added anytime, as long as you have a space for it, so I recommend saving up for a decent one and keeping an eye out for sales. My fave skimmer ATM is the Eshopps S-150 cone skimmer (I like it better than our Euro Reef RC-180, which WAS my fave). They're typically less than $400 and are super easy to dial-in.
 

sundance2011

New Member

As for the reactor, Do not use RTV sealant. It's toxic when submerged in water.

I used Aquarium grade RTV, it worked great. How have you been building your sumps if you haven't been using RTV?
 

sundance2011

New Member
Something new to add to the piece of s*%^ list. This Kent Phos-reactor is a POS. Some of the fittings that were glued in leak. Can't remove them to re-glue them without breaking them. The one I fixed isn't leaking. Guess I'll go back to the bags in the filter. I think everything I have ever owned from Kent was garbage.
 
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