My First Tank..!!!

[governor410]

Hey everyone this is my first post here on this site and I look forward to everyones help to my questions. I am brand new to this so if my questions seem basic, please understand. The past month I have been doing a ton of reading and more reading... the problem is I get more confused the more I read.
Here are my biggest problem I am running into. I want to do this the best way even if it may be a little expensive. I dont have a problem paying a little more for better quality. I planned on a budget around $1500 to start, this would not include my first few fish, just everything I need to get started correctly. This includeds the purchase of a 90G AGA (complete with stand, hood, and "basic lights" new at my LFS for $450). Thank you again to anyone who can help me. I look forward to your opinions and advise!
1. Live Rock vs Wet Dry Filtrations - Plan on starting with a fish only setup and moving up later. Visited 2 LFS both told me to go Wet Dry while most internet sites say use Live Rock. What do I do, this is driving me nutz???
2. Do I need to purchase a Protein Skimmer right away???
3. Should I set up a sump right away?
4. Live Sand vs. Sand.. I guess???
5. Upgrade the Lights?
6. Any other major equipment I need to purchase? Pumps? Powerheads? Heaters? Anything I missed??
Thank you in advance!!
-Governor

 

[1journeyman]

Welcome to the boards.
First off, congratulations on reading up on the hobby. 2 great books to pick up would be Here and here The first one explains different setups and so on, the second is a great guide to the most popular fish you'll see in the trade. It explains habitat needs, size requirements, etc. Take it with you to the pet store to avoid unwise purchases.
Now to try to answer your questions:
1. wet/dry filtrations are good. Live rock is better. A lot of people remove the bio balls from wet/dry setups and put live rock rubble in them instead. In your display tank live rock provides great biological filtration, as well as "normal" habitat for your fish. It also provides food for them, helps buffer water, introduces critters to your tank, etc. My advice would be go with a drilled tank, set up a sump/refugium and use ample amounts of live rock in your tank.
2. Skimmers should be used fairly early. If you are curing rock in the tank (which is a great way to start a tank, btw) a skimmer should be employed immediately. While a fish only tank doesn't neccessarily have to have one, take a look at what a skimmer pulls out of a tank. You'll never go without one after that...
3. Buying a new tank will make you decide whether to get a drilled "reef" ready tank or not. If you plan on setting up a sump get a drilled tank. That will require you to set up a sump immediately.
4. Bagged live sand is sand... buy it (research sand bed depths to determine what you want) and seed it with true live sand. The "live" sand from this site (found in the live rock section I believe) is good stuff.
5. Lights will have to be upgraded as soon as you start looking at corals. For live rock and fish you'll be fine with stock lights. Some of the hitchhiking corals won't survive under stock lights, but other stuff will.
6. Heater, pump to return water from sump to tank, pump for skimmer, skimmer, test kits, Refractometer (to test salinity), pH probe (not essential but I really like and suggest it) . You may need to add another pump to return water or to make a closed loop; especially when you start rasing corals. You want a lot of flow in a tank. Upwards of 30x for many corals.

 

[weberian]

Hey welcome aboard, gov'ner.
1. Use Live Rock (LR). If you get into this, you will want a sump and or a refugium, and Wet-dry's are just too small to be practical. Besides, LR is more natural looking in the tank.
2. Yes, a protein skimmer is one of the best inventions for saltwater - get a really big, expensive one. It is the only type of "filter" I know of that actually separates pollutants from your tank water.
3. Yes, you should plan a sump and/or refugium right away. Spend months planning your system before you buy anything. I took months planning and it still wasn't enough.
4. A lot of people use Live Sand because it helps get their cycle going. Do you know the nitrogen cycle? It's crucial.
5. Spend a LOT of time thinking about lighting. Learn the pros and cons of every type of lighting. Bulb replacement schedule, bulb costs, and of course what type of livestock you can keep with what lights. (I'm still using my first fixture: a 2-bulb power compact unit. It's not that powerful, so I'm planning a 4-bulb VHO light for my second saltwater tank ever - I have no idea when that'll happen

)
6. Yes you'll need all those, plus a refractometer for mixing a proper batch of saltwater, plus a scraper for algae, plus a LOT of test kits. Test kits are your BEST friend, especially when it comes to figuring out what's causing you problems. Some people are lazy about testing but you really have to make yourself interested in doing proper tests.
Good luck. Hope you like the hobby.

 

[governor410]

Thanks for the great info... The first book you mentioned (Conscientious Marine Aquarist) I have on order and I also am reading The New Marine Aquarium: Step-By-Step Setup & Stocking Guide. My major issue is that when I go to the only LFS by my home, they tell me to not do Live Rock. Although everything I read and have been told says do Live Rock. One store mentioned that if my fish get sick, then that could ultimatly get the LR sick and ruin the tank. Just confused... but really appreciated your feedback... anyone else????
-Governor

 

[governor410]

Weberian...
great info... and yes I am familiar with the nitrogen cycle. Well atleast I am trying my best to learn about.
thanks!!
-Governor

 

[governor410]

Great and fast replies... awesome... great forum here.
anyone else??? - taking any and all advice.
-Governor

 

[trigger11]

I would definitely recommend going with the Live Rock. You will be much happier in the end. Even though you say you are only going to do fish only for a while it sounds to me like you would end up getting pretty serious with the hobby and you will end up going to a reef. If you have an ample amount of LR then you have the most natural filtration system on the planet.
Please don't take this the wrong way but you always have to take what the LFS is telling you with a grain a salt. Remember their best interest is to try to sell you something as that is how they make money. Dont get me wrong. I asked my LFS a lot of questions and I still do buy things from there. However, I always try to get an unbiased opinion as well. If the unbiased opinion confirms what the LFS is telling me then that gives me more confidence to keep going there. For instance, there was one LFS I went to that kept telling me one thing so I would buy their stuff. Everybody elses opinion was different so I have never gone back.
Welcome to the boards and keep asking questions.

 

[braydonosu]

I would defiantly recommend live rock for the same reasons as above... the look is great and the bio filtration is above all else. I would have a little talk with your LFS just to see how much they actually know about marine setups. You can get away w/o LR (I work at a fish store that sadly got rid of the marine section, but we never used LR in our displays), however tanks are better off with it. The store was right in telling you that certain diseases can manifest in the LR, but it can get into the sand as well. Ich is the most common, I assume you know about ich with you reading list. If you employ a quarantine tank , then you should have nothing to worry about.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by governor410
.... One store mentioned that if my fish get sick, then that could ultimatly get the LR sick and ruin the tank. Just confused... but really appreciated your feedback... anyone else????
-Governor

First off, set a QT tank and keep fish in it for 4 weeks before they go into display tank. That will eliminate most diseases. Some parasites (ich) can get in your sand and rock, but not if you practice proper QT.
That's stupid... get the live rock sick? Live rock is called that because of the bacteria, algae, hitchhikers, etc. on it. You can't kill or ruin it. The only way to ruin live rock is to medicate your tank... some ingredients in medicine like copper can kill your rock and contaminate it.
We can rule out that store for good advice.

 

[weberian]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
The only way to ruin live rock is to medicate your tank... some ingredients in medicine like copper can kill your rock and contaminate it.
We can rule out that store for good advice.
Agreed...
What a dumb thing for an LFS to tell people. That is the only way I ever heard of to ruin your LR, and it's something you would do yourself, NOT something that just HAPPENS to you.

 

[travis99]

Use live rock, set up a qt tank. Keep new fish in the qt tank for a couple of weeks and monitor them. It is easier to prevent disease than treat it.
Just like humans, that's why you got all those shots when you were a kid.

 

[governor410]

Just wanted to thank everyone that had posted responses to my questions. Your advise will definetely be used and now my thoughts are turning to using the live rock in my setup. I never looked into the thought of setting up a quarantine tank to begin with but it sounds like a good idea.
Since it looks like I will be using LR my next question has to deal with the sump. With the use of LR what do I do to setup a sump, what do I need to use and what is required. My tank is a pre drilled tank (reef ready) and I just want to make sure I do everything the best way possbile.
Thank you
-Governor

 

[robdog696]

This is possibly the best sump I have seen. it is not mine; it belongs to someone else on the boards. I forget who, sorry .

But you can see this person has an area for natural filtration using sand, small pieces of liverock, and algae. As well, they have a skimmer set up in the sump. Beautiful design, imo! If you check out the list of helpful threads for new hobbyists you will find several links that explain the difference between and purposes of a sump and a refugium.

Welcome to the boards. I'm fairly new myself and these people have been a great help to me!

 

[murph]

Your decision to start with a fish only tank is probably a good idea. Base rock, sand, standard lighting, a hob filter and heater if necessary and a few power heads and perhaps a nominal amount of lr to seed your sand bed and base rock.
I don't mean to sound discouraging in any way. Its a wonderful hobby but attrition rate can be rather high. Its not uncommon for me to see systems get set up, a fairly large sum of money invested and then after various livestock and maintenance issue are encountered frustration builds and the systems are broken back down in a year or two.
A simple fish only set up will be enough so that you can get a decent understanding of water chemistry issues involved and more importantly whether interest level will remain high as time passes and various problems that present themselves to all hobbyist regardless of experience level are encountered and dealt with.
First tanks have a tendency to become sumps. If you find that your in the hobby for the long term your 90 gal will serve that purpose and a new tank can be the reef ready variety and you can add all the bells and whistles to your old tank/new sump.
By the time all that happen your experience level will be higher and your advancement into reef keeping will have a much higher chance of success. Another advantage is for all intents and purposes the base rock you started with will qualify as live rock.

 

[governor410]

Let me ask everyone this...
Is it easier to start with a FO tank then move to a FOWLR tank and so on and so on. If this is the case then it will lead to my next question. If I did decide to start with a FO tank for lets say a year or so. "IF" I did purchase the wey/dry filter is it hard to place live rock in later on down the line to begin a reef?
This is the biggest question I face. Please understand I am brand new to all this and dont know which route to go.
Thanks
-Governor

 

[bterry29]

Yes, it would be easy to move from FO to FOWLR and you could start with a wet/dry now and change to live rock later w/o any problems. It sounds like you are leaning towards the wet/dry so why not do both. Get about 30lbs of live rock and get the wet/dry. As someone else pointed out the live rock is very beneficial for your tank for filtration as well as a great natural habitat for the fish. I also think it is exciting to see if you get any hitchhikers in the rock. I would also plan to get a skimmer w/in the next year. It is amazing how much gunk they can take out of the water. Good luck and enjoy.

 

[murph]

Live rock is a large expense for new tank but on the other hand is one of the few things in this hobby that holds its value. If, God forbid, you were to set up and find the hobby was not right for you it would be easy to sell it to a fellow hobbyist locally and see a return of most of your investment so if you want to start with all LR and have the funds I would say go ahead.
The only beginner mistake you could make to destroy your rock would be to let it go dry or use medications like copper that would kill it off so avoid doing this.
Down the line I think you will find that any "boxed up" filter media is going to be a nitrate producer. Not a problem for a FO or FOWLR at levels as high as 40 ppm. when and if you advance into reef keeping these levels will need to come down to around 10ppm or ideally zero.
With that in mind I would skip the wet dry which is going to add expense require a reef ready tank or hang on overflow and return pump and opt for the less expensive and more easily maintained good old hang on power filter. Emperor 400 would be a good choice.
If you have already decided that you want to make a larger initial investment and purchase a drilled tank I would use a 55gal or 75 gal tank as a sump. This will span the entire 4 foot length of 90 gal display tank and any drips or minor leaks from your plumbing will fall into sump and not present any problems. I would then direct the flow from one of the drains into a inexpensive micron filter pad which is reusable after cleanings, even machine washable IMO that's all you need for filtration. This will also create room for the addition refugium components.
IMO sumps crammed under stands/displays will become a maintenance hassle and lead to neglect, so consider when setting up, a place where sump can be positioned behind display for far easier access. Included is a pic of my diy style sump. Excuse the wire mess, tank was recently moved and not quite completed in some aspects. The drain in the foreground is running about 600 GPH through micron pad. Can be accessed and cleaned in a matter of a few minutes.

 

[governor410]

OK cool well here is what I am thinking about doing, after reading everyones advice. Someone had mentioned that purchasing they wet/dry filter for starters may not be a bad idea and just get about 30-40lbs of live rock to start. this would make any transition in the future much easier. I am still really stuck which way to go, so I will figure things out and let everyone know!
Thank you again to everyone who has helped. I still am about 2 months away, since I am getting married and buying a new home, so I still have a ton of time to decide.
I will keep everyone updated on my setup!!
-Governor

 

[governor410]

Wow, just went back through this thread and all these answers. The amount of help you get here is crazy

!! Thank you to everyone who had helped me. Today I visited another store about an hour away and they really broke everything down for me. Actually they said what all of you did. So my decision has been made to start with a FOWLR setup. What better than to provide the closet environment for the fish than what they are already used to. With this decision now made it only leads to more questions.
1. For a 90G AGA tank, would 100lbs of LR be suffienient?
2. How many lbs of live sand?
3. Should I get inverts?... this is a FOWLR system
4. Now in regards to setting a sump what size and can someone let me know what I will need to set this sump up?
Once again, and I say this all the time, I cannot thank everyone who has helped me so far. Your knowledge will definetley help me succeed. Will def. be keeping everyone updated on my plans and eventual tank!!
-Governor

 

[mike22cha]

Yes 100lbs of lr would be fine, you may chose to add some later though.
Go to live rock and live sand here at swf.com. They have a thing under the lr and ls where you can type in your deminsions and desired depth of sand and it tells you how much you need.
As soon as the tank is cycled I'd get a cleanup crew, but some fish aren't good with shrimp so I'd research both your desired fish and the shrimp before you buy one.