My pH is low, I keep adding "buffer"

T

tizzo

Guest
That's the one I never get tired of telling people to stop doing!!
The LFS guy told me to add this "buffer"... what are parameters?? I don't have any test kits my water is "fine" or "perfect".
I guess since I started the topic I should complete it.
pH is a RESULT! Not an actual parameter.
What I mean is... If you test and all of your parameters are in check, then you don't even need to check your pH...
If your readings are...
Calcium between 380 and 450
alk between 8 and 11 dKh
and your tank is well oxygenated in order to push out the co2 (carbon dioxide)
Then it doesn't matter what your ph is cause it will be within an acceptable range.
But some of us use our pH as a short cut. An "off" pH tells us that something is outa balance and we need to fix it...so we test everything.
sigh... I think that's all for now.
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member
I hear you

Think of waste and how it is acidic and how pH and alk can help you under stand how much waste there is. Think of how bicarbonate buffers pH more than carbonate and how the ratio of each determines pH. Think of how if you don’t deal with the acidic waste the alk drops like a stone.
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2603891
That's the one I never get tired of telling people to stop doing!!
The LFS guy told me to add this "buffer"... what are parameters?? I don't have any test kits my water is "fine" or "perfect".
I guess since I started the topic I should complete it.
pH is a RESULT! Not an actual parameter.
What I mean is... If you test and all of your parameters are in check, then you don't even need to check your pH...
If your readings are...
Calcium between 380 and 450
alk between 8 and 11 dKh
and your tank is well oxygenated in order to push out the co2 (carbon dioxide)
Then it doesn't matter what your ph is cause it will be within an acceptable range.
But some of us use our pH as a short cut. An "off" pH tells us that something is outa balance and we need to fix it...so we test everything.
sigh... I think that's all for now.
I see what you are saying here, but in newer tanks a PH test is an absolute must. I never test my PH anymore because I know that it is always on. I don't ever test for nitrite either. It is always zero. This forum is for NEW hobbyists to recognize what NOT to do. IMO testing the PH is extremely important.
 
T

tizzo

Guest
Knowing your pH is Important... But if it's low... then what's your very next step?
Assuming your oxygenating properly...
You test your calcium and alk. Ammonia and nitrates (some do the trites too)... If all those are in check then your pH will be also.
Testing your ph is important. But IMO, it is only important cause it tells you that you do not hafta test everything else right now.
But if you DO test everything else, then you do not need to test the pH cause it will be fine.
Hypothetically speaking, to demonstrate my point would be a post such as...
My ammonia, and nitrates test at o ppm.
My calcium is 400
my alk is 8 dkh
but my pH is 7.6...
Oh and it's 7 o'clock on the evening and my lights were on all day.
Right there we would automatically assume the pH test kit is wrong.
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2604111
Knowing your pH is Important... But if it's low... then what's your very next step?
This has many variables. Which we would ask about.
Assuming your oxygenating properly...
For new hobbyist, we cannot assume anything
You test your calcium and alk. Ammonia and nitrates (some do the trites too)... If all those are in check then your pH will be also.
Not true Tizzo. I am sorry but just because your ammonia, nitrates, calcium, and alk, are in check, that does NOT mean that your PH will be as well. There are many variables involved here. The time of day that you test, the age of the system, the use of a skimmer (dissolved organics are acidic and will decrease your PH regardless of your other readings).
Testing your ph is important. But IMO, it is only important cause it tells you that you do not hafta test everything else right now.
How is that?
But if you DO test everything else, then you do not need to test the pH cause it will be fine.
An off ph DOES signify something else going on in an established system. In a new system, the PH can fluctuate. I don't test my PH anymore because my system is established. I know my tank and my fish. My system is also a few years old. This is supposed to instruct NEW hobbyists of things NOT to do. You absolutely MUST test all of your parameters, very often. There is no shortcut on that, at all!
Hypothetically speaking, to demonstrate my point would be a post such as...
My ammonia, and nitrates test at o ppm.
My calcium is 400
my alk is 8 dkh
but my pH is 7.6...
Oh and it's 7 o'clock on the evening and my lights were on all day.
Right there we would automatically assume the pH test kit is wrong.
No, I wouldn't assume that the kit was wrong. I would ask what all was in your tank
 
T

tizzo

Guest
Originally Posted by sepulatian
http:///forum/post/2604158
No, I wouldn't assume that the kit was wrong. I would ask what all was in your tank

Why?? If I'm over stocked and or under filtered then that would show up on the ammonia/trate test...
Anyway, my original point was... Don't add "buffer" just cause your pH is low...
But you can still answer the question...I'll hafta check it tomorrow though.
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2604238
Why?? If I'm over stocked and or under filtered then that would show up on the ammonia/trate test...
Anyway, my original point was... Don't add "buffer" just cause your pH is low...
But you can still answer the question...I'll hafta check it tomorrow though.
You are correct, if the tank was over stocked and/or under filtered then the proof would be in the readings. I agree that just because the PH is low, that does not mean that you have to add a buffer. That is the point that I was making. There is usually a reason for it. A healthy system does not have a fluctuating, nor a low PH. We do have to keep in mind the forum that this is posted in. New tanks will have problems and the PH is something that needs to be monitored.
 
bwild

bwild

New Member
I am a newbie and have fish is hypo, my PH is low. In Beth's disease post it says to be ready with buffer. What am I supposed to buffer with? Thanks!
 
T

tizzo

Guest
since you are new, stop me when it no longer makes sense...
when you mix up a batch of saltwater, after proper aeration and circulation the on should be 8.3 give or take.
In a hospital tank, and I say hospital instead of qt cause there is a difference. In a hospital tank medications, higher temp and the inability to cycle the tank will cause just about every reason for your ph to fall. Improper co2 exchange, ammonia, nitrates etc...
Ammonia and nitrates will drag down your alk levels. So you will need to add buffer. What I am saying is that you need to add buffer to up your alk levels, not because your ph is low. (but your ph will be low cause of the alk, in this case) is this making sense?
When it comes to a new qt or a hospital tank, its a given that your alkalinity will be depleted, so you need a buffer on hand, but to be safe you should also have a test kit.
 
T

tizzo

Guest
the ph of ro water is 6.2, tap is around 7.2. Salt mixes include a balance of all of their elements that usually result in a ph of 8.3 and if they do not, then we manually tweak them until they do.
by running hypo, you are diluting the salt mix thus diluting the buffers. So as with any "problem" with a salt mix, you correct it, by compensating with more buffer.
It wouldn't last forever to keep upping the alk levels and not have them balanced with the calcium, but the fish can do without all the calcium in the water for the amount of time needed for treatment. What they cannot deal with is the "harder" water that results from not having enough "buffer"
So, that being said, any will work.
I like Seachem's reef builder personally.
 
renogaw

renogaw

Active Member
the reason hypo water is so low in pH is because it has no where near the calcium/alk that we normally find in a reef tank, because there is no where near the salt mix in the tank that would normally be in a reef tank. this is definitely the only time i'd suggest using buffers, but you gotta use em so often its nuts.
what i don't understand with buffers is most will raise OR lower your pH to a specific value...how does it raise AND lower??? almost the same question of how does a thermos know to keep something hot or cold...lol.
kent's buffer works well also.
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member
Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2606431
the reason hypo water is so low in pH is because it has no where near the calcium/alk that we normally find in a reef tank, because there is no where near the salt mix in the tank that would normally be in a reef tank. this is definitely the only time i'd suggest using buffers, but you gotta use em so often its nuts.
what i don't understand with buffers is most will raise OR lower your pH to a specific value...how does it raise AND lower??? almost the same question of how does a thermos know to keep something hot or cold...lol.
kent's buffer works well also.
It is the ratio of the buffer minerals. Over time the salt mix (tank water) buffer ratio is replaced by the additive ratio. The ratio is a mix of minerals resulting in a specific pH.
This is simplified
Seachem Reef Buffer ph 8.3 (more bicarbonate, less carbonate)
Seachem Reef Builder pH 8.1 (less bicarbonate, more carbonate)
 
bird dog

bird dog

Member
Ok I have to jump in here.
I have a established reef .
All my peramiters are better than fine except DKH slips
I loose a ton of water to evaporation and pour back RO water and do reg water changes.I found my DKH slips but everything else appears fine,
I add DKH buffer when it drops and all life thrives.
Could I be missing something or is this correct reaction from RO water.
Am I going to buffer my tank to death?
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member
Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2607360
right, but how does it lower your ph say if it is at 8.6?
It won’t lower the pH that is contrary to the minerals natural tendency. Alkalinity falls and so pH fallows it. Adding a buffer replaces lost carbonate, bicarbonate alkalinity. If you add Seachem Reef Buffer ph 8.3 (more bicarbonate, less carbonate) the ratio of bicarbonate goes up and you raise pH to 8.3. You can over shoot if you over dose, yet the tendency is for the threshold of mineralizing to be exceeded and for it to precipitate out (You wind-up back where you started or lower but at a more naturel ratio). The addition of buffer to bring alkalinity bake up then pushes pH to 8.3. Also, as the alk goes up the less it moves pH hence the term buffer. So each buffer addition pushes pH up less and less but its there as alkalinity falls and holds pH up until the extra minerals runs out.
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member
Originally Posted by Bird Dog
http:///forum/post/2608448
Ok I have to jump in here.
I have a established reef .
All my peramiters are better than fine except DKH slips
I loose a ton of water to evaporation and pour back RO water and do reg water changes.I found my DKH slips but everything else appears fine,
I add DKH buffer when it drops and all life thrives.
Could I be missing something or is this correct reaction from RO water.
Am I going to buffer my tank to death?

It dropping is normal and is accelerated by adding large amounts of top-off and or waste or over dose of calcium, magnesium or strontium. So add top-off daily or just buffer it. test test test
 
T

tizzo

Guest
Originally Posted by Bird Dog
http:///forum/post/2608448
Ok I have to jump in here.
I have a established reef .
All my peramiters are better than fine except DKH slips
I loose a ton of water to evaporation and pour back RO water and do reg water changes.I found my DKH slips but everything else appears fine,
I add DKH buffer when it drops and all life thrives.
Could I be missing something or is this correct reaction from RO water.
Am I going to buffer my tank to death?

A reef tank does deplete alk, therefore you may need to supplement. It SHOULD deplete alk and calcium at the same pace. But either way, the "buffer" does have a purpose and it appears you are using it correctly.
You test then add, that's right. But there are other factors to a low pH, so somebody new to the hobby should test before dosing that specific item.
You are not missing anything, your tank seems normal from what you wrote. My last 90 gallon reef depleted 1/4 cup (B-ionic brand) of alk every day!! as well as calcium.
 
T

tizzo

Guest
Originally Posted by renogaw
http:///forum/post/2607360
right, but how does it lower your ph say if it is at 8.6?
GeoJ, I wonder if the product will intentionally precipitate to bring a high pH down. High pH is usually the result of adding to much buffer to begin with. Maybe it is designed to precipitate at a certain level... Then the company looks like a hero from either direction.
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member
Originally Posted by Tizzo
http:///forum/post/2608742
GeoJ, I wonder if the product will intentionally precipitate to bring a high pH down. High pH is usually the result of adding to much buffer to begin with. Maybe it is designed to precipitate at a certain level... Then the company looks like a hero from either direction.

It would be pretty smart of them if it were indeed possible to tweak it to do that.
 
bird dog

bird dog

Member
Originally Posted by GeoJ
http:///forum/post/2608736
It dropping is normal and is accelerated by adding large amounts of top-off and or waste or over dose of calcium, magnesium or strontium. So add top-off daily or just buffer it. test test test
Thank You
 
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