Need advice on 2 month old tank

[inawe]

I need some help, please! I bought a tank about 2+ months ago, and it still looks yuck. Maybe I'm not being patient enough, but if that's the case, someone please tell me.
I have a 37 gal tank with Eclipse bio wheel. Crushed coral, limited live rock, and 3 clowns. I would have done things differently had I known about these sites before starting, but didn't. I've been doing what I've been told by petstore. However, everytime I go in with water, I get a different "do this" by different people (water change/no water change, clean tank/leave tank alone, add 'this'/shouldn't have added 'this'), and they seem to know what they are talking about...all claim to have a wonderful looking tank. But everytime I "try it", things just seem to get worse. I have done a water change, cleaned the tank, added bio spira, ammo lock, and on stability now. But the algae on the bottom has gone from obviously green to very dark green (almost looks brown). There is something that looks like a small spider web growing on the gravel right under the LR. And the water has a light fog to it. The fish have adapted well to the horrid water conditions, but hindsight is 20/20...I would have waited on the fish if I had been told to do so.
My numbers at last check were high range pH-7.4, ammonia-2.0ppm, nitrite-1.0ppm, nitrate-0ppm. These numbers change EVERY week - up, then down.
I am looking for sound advice, as I am loosing faith in the multitude of answers from PS. Please help!

 

[scotts]

First off welcome to the board.

Just to let you know I started pretty much the same way. Every time I had a problem the lfs had a bottle of something to cure the problem. Then I found this site and learned more in my first 3 months here than I did the previous 6 months when I only listened to the lfs. I hate to think of how much $$$ I literally poured into my tank.
So anyway now onto your tank. And the bad news, since you are starting out, now might be a good time to swtich over from Crushed Coral to Live Sand. You could start off with 20 pounds for a tank that size and maybe add more later.
I have to get going for now, but learn the search button at the top right of the screen, for instance do a search for "switch from CC to LS" and you will learn about that.
HTH
Scott

 

[ginarox]

welcome to the board...i dont see that you have a clean up crew,,you may want to get a foxfish,there good at eating alge,,get some crabs, some snails,,,that will help with the algae problem,,,but i would diffenetly waite to hear from some other people,,,hang in there dont give up yet, i promise this site will help you out...good luck and keep us posted in how things are going for you...have a good day....

 

[jasonmarc]

Good morning - sorry to hear about your struggles. If you're levels are at the numbers you're reporting, I would think you have to do something quickly. If I were you, (and I had to do something similar) I'd start completely over. Here would be my advice:
Get a 40 gallon container (like a rubbermaid) and make yourself up a completely new batch of water for your tank - let it run with a heater and a powerhead for a couple of days to make sure your salt level and pH is right (pH should be higher than 7.4 - should be at or above 8.0) - like I said - let it run a couple of days to make sure everything is stable and adjust if need be. Then, as much as it will suck, if I were you I would strip the tank. Take the LR and get it in your new water, bag the fish, and rinse the hell out of everything else (and apparently getting a new bottom substrate wouldn't be a bad idea since the tank is already in pieces) - put the tank back together with the water you've had running, biospira it, and acclimate your clowns back into it. Then leave them alone a couple of days. Don't try to feed, leave the lights off most of the time, etc. Let them get settled from all of it.
I would think that 2.0 ammonia is too much to keep your fish in without something drastic, and I actually had to do something similar and pulled my tank back together. If I'm not clear please let me know.
One newbie to another
Jason

 

[dutch06]

Inawe, I had an eclipse for my first year before I upgraded. I had a constant battle with the same problems you are now. IMO, it's very hard to get a good flow with that set-up. I added a small power head on the bottom near the back glass to help increase circulation. It helped, but it took quite a long time for noticeable results. The suggestion with a good clean-up crew won't hurt, good luck.

 

[sly]

DON'T SWITCH OVER FROM CC TO LIVE SAND... It get's so old hearing the same old argument over and over regardless of the facts. If you set it up properly you can run either one just fine... yet that is the FIRST thing people want to tell you that is wrong with your tank... If you do this but don't address the REAL issue then you just spent all that time and money on bad advice...

First of all the reason you are hearing so much "good advice" is because there are many different methods in fishkeeping to do the same thing. It's not that you are being told wrong... but there are advantages and disadvantages to each. For example water changes are good because they replenish minerals that get consumed by corals and add buffering to the tank while removing toxins that build up... However water changes are bad because they stress the fish, introduce temperature and chemical swings to the tank and in cases like yours where you have high ammonia and low pH, you can release toxic ammonia and actually kill the fish by doing a water change as it raises the pH.
So you have to see both sides of this issue. You need to do a MAJOR water change. If you do a light one and raise the pH you can unlock the ammonia and damage your tank. I would take your fish out and put them in a bucket and cover it. Put a few rocks in there so that they can hide and feel safe, put in your heater with a thermometer and then put in an air stone. Cover the bucket (or whatever) but don't cover it completely to block out all the light. Fish don't like to be in absolute darkness and they don't like fast movements and bright light either. Cover it with a towel or something and you will be fine... Stress kills fish. You want to be easy on them...
Start preparing for a major water change. Get a clean trashcan and fill it with enough filtered (preferable reverse osmosis) water as you need. Put in and air stone to start getting oxygen in it and drop in a heater. After a few hours then start to mix in your salt. Mix it until your SG is about 1.024 and let it mix preferably overnight to equalize.
Now do a 100% water change. Take out all your rocks and clean them with a brush in a bucket of salt water. If your crushed coral is deeper than 2 inches then take some of it out and throw it away. Ideally you want your crushed coral to be about an inch deep. Vacuum it well as you are taking the water out. Clean your tank COMPLETELY and remove all algae from the glass and anything else...
Sorry but this will take some time and be a lot of work. However when you get things set up correctly you will not have this headache. Put the substrate back into your clean tank and start filling it back up with water. Put in the clean rocks and then fill it up completely. YOU REALLY NEED A SKIMMER. This is very important, especially in a tank as underfiltered as yours. Add a skimmer. If you need a hang on back skimmer look at getting something like a prizm or an Aqua C Remora. This will clear up a lot of that cloudiness and will remove much of the decay from your water.
Now here's where you need to decide on what you want and what you can afford. You need more biological filtration. The biowheel is very limited in what it can do in salt water systems. If you can add a wet/dry filter your ammonia levels will almost drop to nothing. Even an undergravel filter will remove ammonia if you choose to go that route. There are many hang on back wet/drys avalible as well.
You can also add a refugium with live plants. Mangroves and chaetomorpha are very good at consuming toxins from your tank.
You probably need more live rock. Heck, you can even add cleaned dead rock and it will serve the same purpose... you need more bio filtration.

 

[sly]

There are two types of biofiltration, aerobic and anaerobic. Aerobic is what a wet/dry does and what your biowheel is trying to do. It exposes a bacteria colony to high levels of oxygen which they need... Then they break down ammonia and nitrite to nitrate. An undergravel filter can do the same thing but not as good.
The other type of bacteria that grows in tanks is anaerobic. This bacteria lives only in areas of the tank that are very low in oxygen. Oxygen can actually kill them. They live in deep live rock pores mostly and in deep sand beds. This is why you need more live rock. IMO it is an essential part of keeping a saltwater tank. Like I said, you can add dead rock and over a few months it will start housing the bacteria naturally and will become "live".
Plants are another way of removing nitrate... If you want to consider adding a refugium I'll come back and post a link of an easy and cheap way to do this.
One last way to remove ammonia is to add an ozone generator to your skimmer. Ozone breaks apart ammonia quickly but has the side effect of leaving nitrate in the tank. That is why you will need more live rock to handle the nitrate. Ozone also makes your water COMPLETELY clear. It will be so clear that it almost looks blueish in tint.
Adding an ultraviolet sterilizer will help keep algae and sickness out of your tank. You might want to consider getting on of those also.
Finally you may want to get rid of some of your fish. Until your biosystem takes off you will have a very high bioload in your tank and you will have ammonia problems all over again until your tank cycles. Maybe your LFS can take them temporarily... Either way do regular water checks (at least weekly). Do a water change when your nitrates start rising above 20ppm. 15% water change is usually good enough...
You may have to do weekly or biweekly water changes until your bio system picks up speed. But keep doing them to keep your tank managable and your levels under control. Add more biofiltration (live rock, plants, etc) as you can afford them and water changes will become less and less necessary.
Do not put ANY additives in your tank right now either. A water change will restore your water to where it should be. Additives either fix one thing while messing up something else or they hid a potentially dangerous problem untill it's too late (ammonia lock for example). Just keep doing water changes to keep your tank under control until your bio system can take over for you...

 

[turningtim]

At this point I would gut the tank and start over. As suggested either keep the fish in a well maintained manner or better yet see if the lfs will board them for a bit. To start I would get more LR 1lb per gal is suggested. More water flow is needed to keep detris suspened in the water so filtration can pick it up 10x tank volume is a good start. Get a skimmer. Didn't have good luck with my prizm so go aqua-c.
I wouldn't worry to much about UV or ozone just yet, start with basics first and get what you need.
As far as CC vs sand goes its personnal perference. As sly said use only a couple inches and all should be fine. If you go withj CC just keep it clean by vacuum.
It is more than possible to have a good working system w/o gadgets and additives. A good quaility salt, water changes, good flow, good clean-up crew and skimmer works well. Thats all I use on my 55 for 2 years now and haven't had a problem
You just got off on the wrong foot! Don't give up, it can be very rewarding and you're in the right place to learn.

Welcome to the boards!
HTH
Tim
BTW Sly, you should read Aquarium fish mag January issue. There is an article on DSB's and states pretty much what you have said on CC vs sand for as long as I've been here. Very interesting and maybe everyone will go back to shallow CC!

 

[inawe]

Thanks, ya'll for the posts. I think a full water change seems appropriate. My daughter has a 3 gal eclipse she never used. Can I put some of the water from my tank in it, and board my clowns there for a few days while I start things over?

 

[sly]

Originally Posted by TurningTim
BTW Sly, you should read Aquarium fish mag January issue. There is an article on DSB's and states pretty much what you have said on CC vs sand for as long as I've been here. Very interesting and maybe everyone will go back to shallow CC!
I appreciate it... You don't know how many fights I've gotten in over that one... or maybe you do. :thinking:
Anyway this is not another CC vs LS thread... as was stated, you don't have to get rid of the CC... the choice is entirely up to you. There are ways to keep both but the methods are different. People need to realise the differences and the advantages and disadvantages of each.

 

[sly]

Originally Posted by inawe
Can I put some of the water from my tank in it, and board my clowns there for a few days while I start things over?
Yes that should be fine. Just make sure the water is clean and that they have a heater and an airstone.
You are essentially starting over. Your tank will likely go through a cycle again. Keep this in mind as your ammonia starts to rise. It will be hard on your fish. Clowns are strong but it still is not good for them. They will survive it just fine most likely... but if you have the patience for it, I would just leave them in the small tank and do regular water changes to keep their water clean. Essentially YOU be their filtration until your main tank gets back up and running. Since you already have some live rock, your tank will begin cycling automatically. There is no need to add damsels or raw shrimp to the tank to get it started. Now would be a GREAT time to buy some more live rock so it can cure while your tank is cycling. IMO you should have about one pound per gallon but this figure is not exact... Like I said... in my opinion...
When your tank is cycling (with the improvements you've made to your filter system, hint hint) expect your ammonia to rise quickly, followed by your nitrite and then finally your nitrate. It will take about a month for the cycle to complete but when you start noticing your ammonia levels go down, (or at least quit climbing) then you are probably safe to do another water change to clean out the tank one last time and then put your fish back in.
Don't worry... keeping a tank is usually not this demanding. It just takes time to start out correctly and fix the problems with the system. In the end once things are running properly you can enjoy a good looking tank and a regular maintenace routine that you and your fish can live with.

 

[inawe]

A couple more questions...
1. What do you mean by curing LR?
2. When should I think about a clean up crew? Does that need to wait until the tank completely cycles?
3. So I put my clowns in the 3 gal. tank and do water changes often...about a third? and what is "often"?

 

[sly]

Originally Posted by inawe
A couple more questions...
1. What do you mean by curing LR?
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/240464/cured-rock
2. When should I think about a clean up crew? Does that need to wait until the tank completely cycles?
Only get a cleanup crew after your nitrates have gone back down... in other words AFTER you have cycled your tank.
3. So I put my clowns in the 3 gal. tank and do water changes often...about a third? and what is "often"?
Your water tests will tell you how often. You need to watch your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels in the clown tank. Once they rise then change as much water as needed to bring the levels back down. Typically you will need to change about 1/3 of the water every week to two weeks depending on how much they pollute the water.

 

[turningtim]

Do you have any LR in the small tank? you could see if your lfs has some cured LR for sale and place it in with the fish. I wouldn't buy a lot from them b/c it will be pricey but a couple of pcs wouldn't hurt in the short term while the big tank does its thing.

 

[scotts]

Here are some threads that might help you out. They are located in the archive section that is at the bottom of the first page.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/80022/advise-for-new-hobbyists
Especially the threads in the second post, they might help you out and give you some more information.

 

[inawe]

Thanks for all the posts and info on reading. I think I am headed towards some major changes with my tank. Lesson learned!

 

[inawe]

One more (or maybe two) questions...
1 - I'm understanding in addition to redoing all the water, adding a bunch more LR, and continuing with the patience, I need a skimmer...right? And I can go with the prizm and be ok?
2 - I think since I have the Eclipse, and even I have wondered about the water flow (or lack of), I do definately need something to fix this. what would ya'll recommend? I was looking at the Rio? But I don't what size...which one...for my tank (37 gal).

 

[sly]

If you want more powerheads then stay away from Rio. They are cheap, noisy, not reliable and mine freeze up on me all the time. Go with Maxijet. They are the best.
I've heard that prizms are good and so are AquaC skimmers... I haven't used either one to know much about them though.

 

[turningtim]

Always had issues with my prizm (its now skimmimng a junk drawer in the shop)! I would go with the aqua-c
JMO
Tim