Need help with my Nitrates.

[h3b]

My 125g tank in a about a year old or a little more and since the beggining i have had a nitrate problem. At first I had nitrates around 80 so I started doing water changes taking 5g out and putting 10g (evaporation is high) and I bought a HOb 5g fuge and about 5 bags of chaeto. Through all this I only got it down to about 20 up to sometimes 30. Most of the chaeto died but I still have some. I have a wet/dry filter which im am going to start using a new filtration method by slowly removing bio-balls and putting in chemi-pure and puri-gen.
My stock:
Fish:
2 Clakii
4 Chromis
1 YT
Coral:
Small unknown leather
Large unknown leather (looks like a bright colored cabbage)
Toadstool leather
Blue Metallic clove poylps
Flowerpot
Clove Poylps
striped mushroom
red muchroom
green button poylps
brown mushrooms
some zoos (looks liek and interjoined colony of ice poylps and radioactives) not sure what they are.
Equipment:
Wet/Dry
Skimmer
Dual Heaters
Koralia 4s
HOB fuge
UV sterlizer
Sorry for the long winded post but i desperate to fix it.

 

[al mc]

When I first started with swf my lfs set up my tank for me with a wet/dry and crushed coral substrate. After a hard fought battle with nitrates I gave up, found this site and realized that my problem most likely was the substrate and the bioballs in the wet dry. After changing out the crushed coral for sand (a royal PIA) and changing over the bioballs to rock rubble my nitrate problem went from the 30-40 range to the 20 range. Less feeding and a refugium took care of the rest.
From what you describe your bioload is not high. I would be suspicious of the bioballs (nicknamed by many 'nitrate factories), crushed coral (if you have it) and possible over feeding.
So...How much live rock in the tank and do you use crushed coral substrate?

 

[row]

How often are you doing these water changes?

 

[h3b]

I have about 270lbs (or more with all the corals) and about 6in deep sand bed
I do water changes twice a week.
I probably do overfeed but they eat it all in seconds so I can't be sure.

 

[al mc]

IMO it is probably the bioballs then. I would exchange about a cup of bioballs for an equal amount of rock rubble every 4-5 days as long as you do not get an ammonia spike. If I did get an ammonia spike I would slow down the biball removal rate.
Some bioball advocates clean the bioballs on a rotating schedule and continue to use them. Personally I would just slowly eliminate them.
Other things that come to mind. What skimmer and return pump are you using (too small of either could cause some problems with nitrates). Do you have something that is cleaning/turning over the sand (nassarius snails, etc).?
Sorry for giving you as many questions as advice but I am surprised about the
nitrates as the fish load is not that great in an aged tank.

 

[h3b]

I have about 5 huge clams moving around in the sand it it always seems to stay overturned. I am removing bioballs but wont live rock do exactly the same with having to clean them? The skimmer is the one that came with the wet/dry 150. the pump ia acually Oversized. Im just as much at loss as you are I just dont understand it.

 

[al mc]

Removal of the bioballs would be the first thing I have done and would do in your situation. With the amount of LR you have in your DT (270#) you should hav eplenty of biologic filtration so the addition of the lR rubble to replace the bioballs should not be necessary.
If that fails to help I would consider the addition of a larger skimmer. The one that came with my wet dry did pull out lots of 'scum', but when a added a
larger skimmer it was amazing how much more 'scum' was removed.
Another poster had indicated that larger water changes may help. I would suggest that a 20-40% every 2-3 weeks would be more helpful than a 5-10% water change every 5 days.
Good luck!
(Ultimately, as I moved to larger tanks I set up a sump/refugium which while expensive took my 'trates' down to 0-2.5 level without water changes)

 

[h3b]

Ok ill look into another skimmer, any suggestions on what kind?

 

[jpa0741]

Are your corals or fish looking stressed? Those numbers should not be much of a problem if at all with soft corals or fish IMO. If you are still worried, the best bet would be what was mentioned. Remove bio balls and larger better skimmer.

 

[h3b]

The only coral i have problems with is a closed brain the I didnt look over enough before I bought it and came in dieseased and xenia (which looks like to it eaten

)

 

[al mc]

Originally Posted by H3B
http:///forum/post/2538038
Ok ill look into another skimmer, any suggestions on what kind?
If you have room in the sump: Asm or Octopus
If 'Hang on the wet/dry: Remora pro
If out of the sump..stand alone MRC recirculating.
However, the addition of a second skimmer of any type would help take some of the organics out of the water and help lower the nitrates.
BUT...it is cheapest to just remove the bioballs (slowly) and see what happens.

 

[king kole]

dont have much experience in this area but i was wondering this.. if you have a 6 inch sand bed could the lack of microbial efficiency caused by poor ciculation [125 gallons is a lot of area to cover ] i would think,be a problem? dsb are vunerable to oxygen free zones that reduce nitrate back to ammonium and no further[ according to a few books i've read].this is not from my personal experience i only offer it as a researched aid this is one area [circulation] that IMHO doesn't get enough attention in 'help me' areas for new people like me . my mentor says in a zone where oxygen is .5 to 2.0 ppm is a anoxic zone bacteria will reduce nitrate back to gaseous forms [ see harmless] -'' at a 30 times " higher rate than than bacteria in a oxygen free zone. PHEW. the best i can figure is with a deep sand bed like yous and mine if you dont have awesome circulation over time things will go very wrong. i think this is one area that's a little overlooked. we are trying to mimic nature so when was the last time you saw the ocean stand STILL? the main reason i was thinking was 270 lbs of live rock could fairly large areas be blocked from proper circ. in a 125 tank?

 

[dennis210]

As far as what has been said about your nitrate problem. First yes - bioballs are the most effective materials for breaking down ammonia to nitrate. However the process stops there with the biobals. Removing them and replacing with live rock and rubble (smaller pieces baseball to golf ball sizes will do exactly as the bioballs - and then allow for "denitrification" to also occur. If you truly have 270 lbs of live rock in that tank, chances are you do have some dead areas where uneaten food and other wastes can build up.
So adding more circulation would help with that issue. One very good skimmer is better than two poor to middle of the road versions. The best bang for the buck I have found are the Coral life super needle wheel skimmers in the 125 or 225 models. A good skimmer will really help remove wastes.
With a DSB, Live rock, a good skimmer, and proper circulation you should be able to reduce nitrates to near zero or zero.

 

[h3b]

King- Hmm i am probably not smart enough to follow that but I would argue that since anaerobic (oxygen free) bacteria breaks down trates then oxygen free pockets would be a good thing.
Dennis- When I first started I had 250lbs of live rock about 20 9didn't lis all the corals) pieces later I think I am up a little but I can't be sure. Also are a medium and one good skimmer better than a one great skimmer?
I have a maxi- jet 600 if I need to get to the dead spots so I'll plop that in and see if it help around the back.
Heres my entire flow:
Sump- 700gph pump
HOb fuge- 400 Gph
UV sterilizer- 295GPh
Hydor Koralia 4# x2- 800 Gph each so about 1600GPh
= 2995GPH altogether and 24x turnover.

 

[h3b]

King- Hmm i am probably not smart enough to follow that but I would argue that since anaerobic (oxygen free) bacteria breaks down trates then oxygen free pockets would be a good thing.
Dennis- When I first started I had 250lbs of live rock about 20 (didn't list all the corals) pieces later I think I am up a little but I can't be sure. Also are a medium and one good skimmer better than a one great skimmer?
I have a maxi- jet 600 if I need to get to the dead spots so I'll plop that in and see if it help around the back.
Heres my entire flow:
Sump- 700gph pump
HOb fuge- 400 Gph
UV sterilizer- 295GPh
Hydor Koralia 4# x2- 800 Gph each so about 1600GPh
= 2995GPH altogether and 24x turnover.

 

[king kole]

my apologies. i wasnt trying to talk over anyone's head the info i was trying to say came from a noted author who spent 6 yrs studying microbes in salt water tanks. normally i would have saaid H3B this web site has some good info on nitrate problems and how dsb's are affected maybe you should check it out. but the web site is sponsored by competing companies to SWF so i couldn't and just tried to paraphrase it . i meant no offense was only trying to give you info. once again my apologies and i hope your nitrate problem gets solved!

 

[dennis210]

It sounds like you have enough flow, but without seeing your tank it is probably just needing to be adjusted for making sure no dead area's exist. Skimmers - I have been through this alot. I really believe a good skimmer is worth the bucks. I started with seaclones, skilters, and Prizms. As far as I am concerned they are all just bandaid solutions. I went to a superskimmer and the difference is amazing. I have friends who bit the bullet and went higher dollar on Euro skimmer and a Turbo and those seem to be even better than mine. When you can I really do believe one really good skimmer is the way to go. Good luck.

 

[h3b]

Thanks for all the advise guys and King Kole I toke no offense sorry if it sounded that way I just couldn't figure exactly what you were saying.

 

[h3b]

Hmm I am looking around and the problem I am having is I already have 2 things hanging off the tank and no room on the sump so its hard to really find something.

 

[flricordia]

Agree. Remove bioballs, larger skimmer, chemi-pur/ I use the chemi-pur in a phsphate reactor on place of the phosban for no water by-pass and my skimmer hardly produces anymore. My rics and zoanthids are growing the fastest I have ever seen. Might try this.