need help with sump

[brenda5826]

hello all
its been a long time since i have posted but was off line
but now i picked up my first sump for my 50 gallon tank
but i am so worried its going to overflow is
there

any way i could put a shut off on the flow tube thats going from tank to overflow box
i cannt leave the house with it running so afraid it will spill over and last night had a power outage as well thankfully i wokeup

 

[gregzbobo]

It shouldn't overflow as long as you don't fill the sump completely. About the best way is to get your overflow box going with the return pump shut off and just slowly add mixed saltwater to the display tank so it drains to the sump, keep adding till the sump is about 3/4 full give or take. Add slowly so you can keep an eye on the sump level, once water stops draining from the display into the sump and the sump is at the level previously mentioned, turn your pump back on. Wait a bit for the pump to start sending water into the tank and you'll see the sump water level drop, once it stabilizes, put a mark at that level on the side of the sump with a piece of black tape or magic marker, that will let you know when to add fresh top-off water and how much. Anytime the pump shuts off for some reason, the display will drain to that line and stop. Hope that helps.

 

[scsinet]

"automatic" shutoffs, check valves, and other mechanical periphenalia will actually increase your chances of flooding, not decrease the chances.
The reason why is that an overflow system won't flood if installed and maintained properly.
On the other hand, overreliance on mechanical gadgets to try to do it only leads to carelessness. I've seen people try to use valve schemes, check valves, blah blah blah... funnily enough, when you hear from them is usually after the flood.
Anyhoo, if your sump is "empty enough" to handle the excess from the tank, and the tank has enough "empty space" to handle what's in the sump, no matter what happens, it won't overflow.

 

[gregzbobo]

Originally Posted by SCSInet
http:///forum/post/3126210
"automatic" shutoffs, check valves, and other mechanical periphenalia will actually increase your chances of flooding, not decrease the chances.
The reason why is that an overflow system won't flood if installed and maintained properly.
On the other hand, overreliance on mechanical gadgets to try to do it only leads to carelessness. I've seen people try to use valve schemes, check valves, blah blah blah... funnily enough, when you hear from them is usually after the flood.
Anyhoo, if your sump is "empty enough" to handle the excess from the tank, and the tank has enough "empty space" to handle what's in the sump, no matter what happens, it won't overflow.
Yea, if its a HOB overflow box, if the siphon breaks and you tune your sump level the way I detailed, your display tank COULD overflow, that's about the biggest caveat about HOB overflows.
Drilled tank with drain weir FTW.

 

[brenda5826]

thank you both i have tryed to get the overflow box and sump setup that way but
not having much luck once my water level is at min level i turn it on
and shortly after sump is empty or over the max i just cannt get them even out
i was reading some were that by makiing two pin holes in the u tube
it would work like a shut off what do you guys think

 

[scsinet]

The pin holes are for the inflows (returns) to break the siphon that is formed when power is lost. They are NOT for the U-Tube in an overflow. If you put pinholes in your overflow tubes you'll ruin them.

If you are having problems, please describe your setup. Let's start with the tank and sump size, a description of the sump (or a pic), and the make and model of both the pump and overflow.

 

[brenda5826]

okay well its a simple three compartment berlin sump
with a rio+ 2100 pump overflow box i have no idea
i left it running today while at work i came home and my tank is full of
air bubbles and water in sump is at the half way between min and max
so if power gose out and the pump off what will stop the overflow from draining the tank and overflowing the sump sorry i just dont know anything about sumps and help is welcome

 

[scsinet]

Okay well first off, your overflow only extends so far down into the tank... so the water level in the tank won't drop below the level of the overflow. In a normally operating system, the water level rises until the point where it "spills" over into the overflow, where it drains away.
Have you tried actually pulling the plug and just seeing what happens? That's the easiest way to determine if you are in danger, by simply simulating a power failure. If the sump is about to overflow, plug the pump back in.
If your tank is full of bubbles, my guess is that the water level in the sump is low enough that the pump is pulling in air. You need to watch closely near your pump's intake and look for a small "vortex" of air being pulled from the surface of the water into your pump. It'll usually be accompanied by a "slurping" sound. If you see/hear it, that's where your bubbles are coming from.
I really need that tank and sump size to get an idea of what we are dealing with. If you don't know how big the sump is, tell me the dimensions in inches. Same for the tank.
Also, please try to take pictures of the tank, the overflow, your sump, and any other plumbing you have (especially the inflows, where water is delivered to the tank from the pump).
I can't help you much more with the information I have so far.

 

[brenda5826]

okay heres some pic from my phone

 

[brenda5826]

okay i have a 40-50 gallon tank
the sump looks like it could hold a least 3 gallons of water the pump has about 1.5 clear tubing going back to the tank
on the overflow box it has a flexable 3in hose clear box in tank is below water level
so you think i should try and unplug it to see how far it drains i have a off white carpet in my living room

 

[scsinet]

Okay you've got what appears to be an eshoppes overflow. What I'm not sure of is the rated flow rate.
Perhaps more concerning is the size of your sump. 3 gallons is not sufficient to handle your tank. If in fact you are only looking at 3 gallons, that is probably not enough to hold sufficient water to handle the "startup rise" in the main tank. Basically, when you start up the pump, the water has to rise some amount above the edge of the overflow, and the drain system has to fill with water before it goes into the sump. This takes a certain amount of water, likely more than 3 gallons, which is why you are having problems.
Try to get some better pics of the sump and perhaps some dimensions. Also, measure the width of your overflow. Measure the plastic bracket the goes over the edge of the tank from side to side.

 

[brenda5826]

i can only guess at the measurements as i dont own a tape measure
20long x16high x 10 wide
well i try as you said unplug and sure enough it didnt overflow
and it started right back up but while i had it upluged i notice that the tube going back to the tank was twisted so i cut some off to make it straighter
hope this works i am about to give up and go back to canisters

thank you so much for the help

 

[gregzbobo]

Originally Posted by brenda5826
http:///forum/post/3126807
i can only guess at the measurements as i dont own a tape measure
20long x16high x 10 wide
well i try as you said unplug and sure enough it didnt overflow
and it started right back up but while i had it upluged i notice that the tube going back to the tank was twisted so i cut some off to make it straighter
hope this works i am about to give up and go back to canisters

thank you so much for the help

when you unplugged it, how far did the sump fill up? You should safely be able to fill it 3/4 full with the pump off. Some folks might fill it more, but personally I don't like more than that for a bit of headroom. Those dimensions your sump (when filled full) holds around 15-20 gallons maybe? I'm just guessing, I've forgotten the formula for calculating gallons in a box. So with the pump running you've got about 7-10 gallons in there, minus displacement from equipment/possible future liverock.
And to add to what SCSINet said about putting holes in the overflow elbow, I've heard of some people putting one at the uppermost spot and putting a valve there, to bleed off any air that may buildup, but as said earlier, more equipment = more things that can go wrong, if your flow is high enough, that SHOULDN'T build up any air, but watch it nonetheless.

 

[brenda5826]

thank you both for the advice
i left it running all night no bubbles no overflow floods

i'll leave on all day while at work and hope i can make it thru the day without having panic attacks over it running
i think by having me shut it off i have layed most of my fears to rest
i just thought that the u tube would just keep flowing if pump was off
again thank you both so much

 

[brenda5826]

oh forgot when it stop flowing the sump water went just about a inch or 2 over the max line so i still had lots of room if i needed it

 

[gregzbobo]

The "max line" you refer to is there to keep the bio-balls that came with the sump from being submerged, you can ignore that and make your own max line if you wish. BTW, its hard to tell from the pics, but did you leve the bioballs in, or did you remove them? They'd be ok I guess if you are going fish only, but most folks don't use bioballs because they are a nitrate factory, live-rock FTW, and you can even put a couple pieces of live-rock in your sump.

 

[brenda5826]

no i didnt use the bio balls i think i want to add some plants to haverest some codpods
as my tank is mainly for corals
i will add a few different gobys
but i think thats it
i will add some more water to the sump than i thought it waas for no matter what was in there not to pass those limits

 

[brenda5826]

so its been a week and all was well but now my return hose is
not holding up to good it keeps flating out and causing more air bubbles
so i was wondering if i could connect pvc piping from the pump to the sprayer if so what size piping would fit the pump any help and do i need any thing like puddy or glue to hold them and how hard is it as i am not a handie women lol

 

[scsinet]

What do you mean flating out? Are you talking about the return (from pump to tank) or drain (from tank to sump) line?

 

[brenda5826]

sorry from sump to the tank
the hose is so soft it flatens out and my tank gets full of air bubbles
was thinking maybe i could use pvc pipes