Need Help !

[msg martin]

My new wife purchased me a Saltwater 55 Gal Tank for Christmas since she knew that I loved my previous fresh water tank. However all I have been able to do for the past 6 weeks is kill fish... sigh.. The guy at the local fish store is making a killing off of me and I seem to be getting nowhere fast. Please help.
1 Set up tank - Crushed Coral Sand in the bottom with Coral Rocks (not live) - Set Salt to .23 and PH to 8.3 - Let it run for 3 days as the fish guy said.. Put in 3 fish - they were dead in 2 days. Rechecked Salt and PH - Bought three more fish - Same deal - Dead in 2 days.
2 Completely changed Water - Removed Coral Rocks - Set Salt to .23 and PH to 8.3 - Let the tank run for 5 days - rechecking system daily until stable. Used a product the fish guy sold me this time to help establish the proper bacteria in the tank. I add 1/4th tsp daily to the tank. Purchased 3 fish yesterday - One was swimming straight up and spinning this morning, one was dead this afternoon - Sigh only one is left..
All dead fish were Dominos or Damisels ? The fish guy said they were starter fish? The one left remaining is a red hawk.
PLEASE Help - What am I missing ?
Thanks in Advance for your Support !
I will even call you if you can talk me through the process !

 

[yote]

Whats the water temp?
Usually damisels can survive anything.You might also want to check to see that any powerheads are not electrifing your water.

 

[phishface]

Wow, where to start......stop going to that store for 1. And 2, get a book, read this board, do lots of research on how to, and detail on what you want to keep. Slow down, take it easy.......you cant rush this hobby. Obviously the lfs wants your money REAL bad.....but geesh!! Good luck :happyfish

 

[msg martin]

Temp is steady at 77 to 78 F -
I have a small heater in the bottom back of the tank

 

[msg martin]

ANYONE suggest a good book? SALTWATER Fish Tanks for Idiots? LOL
I would like a fish only tank when I finish up - Hopefully some shrimp - crabs etc.. too.. Any direction I should go to not make a mistake? It seems from all of the information here, it's easy to go the wrong way !

 

[bs21]

ok well the reason your fish died is because the tank needs to go through its "cycle" where beneficial bacteria grows to break down waste(fish waste, food, etc..) into nitrites then into nitrates. Ammonia and Nitrites are harmful and ammonia can definately kill them if there is a high enough concentration. Starting a tank with fish is an old way of doing things not to mention it makes your local fish store(LFS) alot of money off of dead fish. Dont get frustrated because you have definately taken a step in the right direction by coming here because research and patience is the key to success in this hobby. I recommend going to a book store and getting "The New Marine Aquarium" by Michael S. Paletta which is a step by step guide and goes over all the essentials of a saltwater tank. Another good book (and depending on who you talk to they might say is the best book i personally like the other one better but thats my opinion) is "The Conscientious Marine Aquariest" by Robert M. Fenner. I have both of these books and then some but these are great places to start along with reading these forums because chances are that there is someone else who has the same questions as you. I hope this helps and Welcome to the hobby!

 

[msg martin]

OK.. THANKS for the choice of books.. I will be in the bookstore tomorrow...
? Just to curb my ?'s before reading the book..LOL.. How do I cycle the tank BEFORE Adding fish? I did read early today about the different cycles and time (30 days or so ) it takes to establish a tank.
Thanks for your help... I AM STAYING away from the LFS - (Learned what that means on here too !)

 

[1journeyman]

Welcome to the boards!
You've had a rough start, bit we'll help get ya going in the right direction.
First, a couple of great books. Fenner's The Conscientious Marine Aquarist and Michael's Marine fishes
Second, if the fish owner did not ask you to test your water, sell you a few test kits, or explain the nitrogen cycle to you (ammonia>Nitrite>Nitrate) quit going there.
Third. Test your water for ammonia. Any ammonia is toxic to fish. Contrary to popular belief, Damsels are not bullet proof. Many do die, but since they are cheap pet stores ship them off to be slaughtered by unsuspecting hobbyists.
Fourth, Crushed Coral is not my preferred substrate. Having said that, some people still use it with great success. Read on the forums around here about sand and CC (crushed coral)
Fifth, tell us more about your rock and aquarium, filtration, etc.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by MSG Martin
OK.. THANKS for the choice of books.. I will be in the bookstore tomorrow...
? Just to curb my ?'s before reading the book..LOL.. How do I cycle the tank BEFORE Adding fish? I did read early today about the different cycles and time (30 days or so ) it takes to establish a tank.
Thanks for your help... I AM STAYING away from the LFS - (Learned what that means on here too !)
A couple of ways...
A cycle needs a source of ammonia. You can add uncured live rock (my personal favorite), feed the tank a bit of fish food every couple of days, or add a piece of raw shrimp. A great thread to read on cycling with live rock is here

 

[kevin34]

I agree with everyone else. Get some books and keep asking questions on this site. Do some research on how to cylce the tank.

 

[msg martin]

Ok - I removed the rocks - they were Coral Rocks - Non-living
the only thing left in the tank is the crushed coral on the bottom.
The LFS never told me about the (A-N-N) Cycle - the only test kit they said I needed was one for the PH = I even asked about other kits.. and was told that I didn't need one... sigh
I did learn from the LFS that I can "jump" start the tank by using Salt Water Biozyme - but it took me 6 visits to the store to learn this. I started using it yesterday. 1/4 tsp per day for 7 days..
Am I on the right path?

 

[bs21]

well there are a couple of ways to cycle a tank i can give a short breakdown of some different ways.
1. This is the way i did my tank. First i added RO water to my tank, not all the way up though, then added the salt till i got the right specific gravity at 1.025(doesnt have to be exactly this. and you use a hydrometer or refractometer to test for this). Then i added my cured live rock to the tank (why i didnt fill the tank all the way) and then added my sand. After i added all this i let the tank run to settle the sand then added a raw coctail shrimp from the grocery store to start the cycle. As the shrimp decomposes it turns into Ammonia in the water this is when bacteria starts to grow in the sand and the Lr that breaks down the Amm. eventually the ammonia will "spike" and then begin to decrease as bacteria turns it into Nitrites. Eventually Amm reaches 0 and the Nitrites spike and same thing happens the bacteria breaks it down further into Nitrates which is toxic to fish in high numbers so once the nitrites reach 0 i did a water change or two( spread out over a week or so) to lower nitrate levels. This process can take a couple weeks to happen or a month. every tank is different but this way you arent hurting any fish or losing a bunch of money.
-there are variations of the method i used which can involve using uncured live rock to start the cycle because of the algea and other organisms that are dying off of the rock. Other people may just feed their tank fish food to start it. I know BangGuy had a thread where he described his method which involved feeding the tank that you could search for.
anyways all of this is described in more detail, about the different processes and the Nitrogen Cycle and what you need to test for etc.., in the two books i listed. they also have info on different fish species and crabs, shrimp, corals so on so you can use them as a starting place for researching fish to add to your tank when you are ready.
edit: lol i guess i was slow typing

 

[1journeyman]

Not really, hehe... the bottled bacteria probably won't do much for ya.
What type of tank are you looking to do? Fish only? Reef? Agressive?

 

[msg martin]

Ok... I can purchase the uncured live rock here?
Anything special I need to do to the existing tank before I put it in? Just pretend I am real dumb and break it down.. LOL don't assume I know anything.. I will go read through the thread on live rock.. Thanks..

 

[bs21]

well you should make sure you have the test kits you need for amm.,nitrite and nitrate. Make sure you have the saltwater mixed to the right SG which requires a hydrometer or refractometer. And have the other equipment needed like a heater, filters, thermometer to make sure temp is good usually in the high 70s. there is a thread in the Archives section of the forum that lists beginner equipment along with a bunch of other usefull info.
on a side note a bunch of people will suggest to use live sand or some sort of aquarium sand instead of the crushed coral because it has to be cleaned regularly or it can cause build up of nitrates. But the sand isnt needed as long as you are willing to clean the CC.

 

[cmaxwell39]

I would recommend looking into getting some live rock for the tank. You could use this live rock to cycle the tank (even uncured live rock will have some of the essential bacteria already on it to seed your tank with). It wil also provide a more natural environment for your future tank inhabitants. You will find in the long run that live rock will be one of the best investments in making your tank healthy and more stable.

 

[msg martin]

I have a heater and temp gauge - plus the swing arm to check the salt levels - So I think I am good on that
I will pick up a test kit to track the ANN levels
Would you suggest Cured or Uncured Rock?
If I am understanding this right.. that will establish a long term system - correct?

 

[1journeyman]

Seriously research CC versus sand. If you decide to remove the CC, now is the time.
Any time you order live rock in the mail it will need to be cured when you recieve it. You can do that in your tank, absolutely.

 

[msg martin]

ok..... I am looking for a thread to learn about the cc vs sand...
and I assume from your comments that they can't be mixed?

 

[bs21]

yea i wouldnt recommend mixing them and now would definately be the time to remove it before you get live rock and other stuff in there