tangs rule
Active Member
New fish Qtine and Treatment Procedures, Thoughts, Tips, Points, and Plans for ich & velvet parasites Part 1:
(This answers A LOT of common questions prior to starting – I tried to get ALL the most common ones answered – I see these all the time in various forums, on multiple websites and wanted to compile a DETAILED list of experiences and thoughts)
It’s VERY long – so just read the "bullet point" bold headlines to see if you’re interested. It’d be torture to read it all – I apologize in advance, but these questions come up again & again & again. However – it’s user active – as at the end, YOU’ALL will select some fish for me to Qtine/treat, and actually show my methods in practice.
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When quoting this post for comment, correction, disagreement, or in general, please DELETE all but the specific bullet points in the quote – to prevent the thread from getting
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When should I set up a Qtine/hospital tank? Before going to the LFS or ordering a new fish online – it’s usually best to set up and get running a Qtine tank system several days in advance, setting the SG to ~1.021 and the temp to 79f. It needs to be stable and running for a couple days, prior to fish addition to ensure all your equipment is ready and the system runs consistently and temp is very stable. An AIR pump is not necessary, but very helpful ensuring oxygen saturation of the qtine water later on. Don’t come home with a new fish in the bag, and a qtine tank to have to set up same day. (Though I’ve done it! More than once.)
What does my LFS keep their tanks at? It can also be very helpful if you know the LFS you will be getting your fish from what their tanks SG/temp/PH is, and set yours accordingly. Most good LFS know, and if in doubt – ask them to test it for ya & write it down. Most online retailers will really not know, or be accurate, as the person you deal with either on the phone OR through email, likely has no access to the tanks. Most retail places run 1.020 – 1.023 for fish only systems. Possibly a bit higher if the fish come out of a combined (reef) system.
How should I cycle my Qtine tank? You can set up a qtine tank, just like a DT, by forcing it to cycle using some raw shrimp for 3-4 days then removing, and allowing the cycle to complete – about a month. It’s the best way – but takes time and planning ahead (like who does that?)…. OR I usually use a piece of filter floss from a known parasite clear DT tank and add that floss piece (maybe credit card size) to go into the qtine filter assembly to add the nitrifying bacters to the system. (Incase I don’t wanna wait a month)… In a pinch you can use a section of filter media from your infected DT – but use it throughout the qtine process – don’t go back and get more later…. Also – "cycled" or DT water really has little to offer as far as nitrifying bacteria colonies, and is pointless to use in setting up a qtine tank – ESPICALLY IF THE DT IS INFECTED. I’ll cycle a bare (no substrate/rock) tank and allow the good bacteria to form in my filter. The cycle process IS NOT dependent on rock & sand, and the good bacteria form just fine on filter floss. "cycle" and "amquel" can help through the Qtine process.[*]Using pre "cycled" water from the DT: Not necessary or beneficial really when setting up a Qtine tank. The nitrifying bacteria colonies needed for NH3 (ammonia) breakdown exist & grow on surfaces within the system. The water alone holds none virtually of these colonies.
As for velvet pictures – please google it and look/compare as many pictures as you can stand. Velvet is so small and hard to really photo well, that most "really coated" looking pictures of a fish with it on the web are a combination of velvet with other more visible issues.
Remember – ich forms tiny white/pink/yellow pimples that kinda resemble "salt grains" or little "pustules/tiny zits" ….Ich can also be more visible in the morning or beginning of the tank day cycle… Velvet is MUCH smaller and more prevalent, resembling a fish with "Flour" on it – or a "haze" and faded colors – esp in "cloudy" areas of the fishes body…Both parasites cause fast breathing, scratching, darting/flashing behavior, excess slime production, frayed fins, and eventually death.
Continue this inspection in Qtine daily for at least a month – 5-6 weeks is better OR until signs are discovered, then identify the culprit and treat accordingly. If no signs appear – your lucky and can go to the DT with them. If signs do appear, then identify what it is and treat..
Regarding velvet, another odd symptom I’ve witnessed a few times in a velvet outbreak on a fish in hypo – is like overnight a fish that was eating, getting fatter, looking better, suddenly craps out all its guts and has a very shrunken/pinched belly and now refuses to eat. Usually very fast breathing (more than 80 breaths/minute) accompanies this symptom, and sadly, I’ve yet to save a fish when these 2 things happen. Yes – the 3[sup]rd[/sup] sign of velvet accompanies this with a "bleaching" or "cloudy" look in color, a sudden loss of color, or large splotches of "clouds" appear too – but So far in 10 years, when these 3 things show up – it’s over within 12-18 hours, and I’ve not been able to treat the velvet outbreak that late in the game. Ich is more common, and moves slower compared to velvet.
BUT velvet requires IMMEDIATE treatment with copper or formalin. Every hour counts with this malaise and sadly once a positive ID is made it may be too late. So if in doubt treat for it sooner than later. Hypo has NO effect on Velvet.
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Feeding & foods It’s best to receive the new fish, get them acclimated to the qtine tank, and see if they’ll eat PRIOR to starting any treatments. Offer a variety of several types to introduce some feeding. I feed the same in qtine/treatment as I will in the DT, so frozen preparations, dried nori, mysis, even some dry flake/pellet should all be available for the type of fish(s) you have (herbivore/carnivore). Always offer a selection of a few things. If your fish arrives obviously infected, then it may be necessary to begin a treatment WHILE trying to get the thing to eat. If the fish refuses to eat, then it’s gonna be your call on which issue becomes critical first – starvation OR parasites. Also ASK the lfs what they are feeding – and ask them to feed the tank (s) your desired fishes are in and select the healthy fishes that are eating. Have them bag these ones for you to take home.
The parasites (ich AND velvet) both have a "cyst" or cocoon stage, and during this stage, they prefer a "natural" medium to cyst and multiply on (rock/sand). Also during this cysted stage hypo/copper/formalin all have NO affect as there is NO water consumption of the cysted parasite – so "normal" parameters maintained in a qtine tank cannot kill the cysts – without killing fish first.
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During this cyst stage (which can last 28+ days) the parasites can be killed or flushed out of the qtine system during a total breakdown of the qtine tank &parts thru immersion in HOT tap water & good scrubbing with a clean dish brush of the tank inside (esp. bottom), PVC ends, cups, filter, powerhead, heater, etc – everything but the fish, whom are in buckets. This breakdown, scrub & flush with HOT tap exposes the parasite cysts to temperatures ABOVE 130f and the scrubbing action can dislodge the cysts, allowing them to journey down the drain, instead of finishing the cycle and continuing it.
Live rock and sand are hard to expose to HOT tap and lots of scrubbing, thus killing off cysted parasites, without causing more problems later on. – so why use it to begin with – and it’s the natural media the parasites expect..
Rock and substrate CAN absorb copper or other meds, resulting in difficulty in maintaining the "medication treatment window" necessary. If copper has to be used later, it must be kept in a treatment window where there’s enough to kill the free-swimming parasites, but not enough to kill the fish. Medication levels too low result in parasites surviving, and continuing their cycle – OR levels to high = dead fish. Over-treating a qtine tank can kill fish in hours, so test your levels regularly and after every water change.
Even Live Rock (containing all sorts of good thingys like tiny worms, snails, pods, etc.) exposed to hypo alone – WILL result in the death of most of those little creatures, only adding to the ammonia levels spiking in the qtine system.
It is very likely any rock or substrate used in qtine/treatment will absorb some copper, only to release it later in life if that rock is used in a DT – possibly killing off sensitive inverts like corals/shrimps/stars/etc. So with the cost of the stuff, why waste it? OR run the risk? Use coffee cups/PVC ends for fish shelter/comfort. (IME)
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[*]A lid covering the majority of a qtine tank is very helpful – as frequently when a parasite "burrows" or "digs" into a fishes side, IT HURTS! ! This can startle the fish, causing even fish NOT KNOWN to be jumpers, to fly out of your qtine tank. Only to die on the floor.[*]Hypo for ich AND velvet? Hypo works well (usually) for marine ich ONLY. Hypo does NOTHING for marine velvet, and velvet is a much more serious and rapid creature – fully capable of killing every fish exposed to velvet-laden water within 24-48 hours. Velvet can survive at specific gravities as low as 1.003 and as high as 1.035 {Noga, 1996} and your fishes won’t! ! ! Copper and/or formalin are the tools to handle this beast. (velvet)
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How do these parasites feed? Both parasite types prefer the fish’s gills to feed on, as there is less effort getting to the blood they need to continue the cycle there. The gills are usually infected WORSE than the body, and lots of signs of parasites on the fishes body ensure the gills are heavily infected – resulting in the fast breathing, gill damage, and eventually the fishes gills are so damaged, they cannot extract the Oxygen from the water anymore, and the fish "drowns" (basically)
ALL the feeding parasites leave the dead host within a couple hours – resulting in a possible MASS infestation, as suddenly there are hundreds if not thousands MORE parasites in the water column, than there would have been, many going directly to another live red-blooded host, and the others who fed enough to begin the cyst cycle, finding a place to cyst and multiply.
The deceased fish releases lots of toxins very quick into the water, polluting it, stressing the others.
Remove the dead fishes ASAP! As soon as breathing basically has stopped. (if possible to determine) If you wake up and see one has died – get it out!
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Going down and coming back up with salinity: going down should take 2 full days to get to 1.008 or 1.009. It should take a full 5-7 days to come back up to DT or 1.021 levels….To make life easier with a 20g qtine tank - mix 2 buckets (about 10 gal) of plain RO/DI with just enough buffer in it to get a pH of 8.0 and use this to refill the qtine tank coming down…. just siphon ~5% out of the qtine tank and replace it with the "mix" TWICE per day, one AM one PM till you get there – checking with the refractometer after each change. During Hypo - mix your water with salt to get 1.008 and buffer to 8.0 in the same buckets and use these for regular w/c during hypo. A cheep "penguin" type powerhead helps keep it mixed. On coming back up, I’ll mix saltwater at 1.028 – 1.031 in the same 5 gal buckets and just replace ~5% 2X per day till QT tank reaches DT salinity – again checking SG after each am/pm w/c.. You will notice it takes more 0.000 sg water per change to reach 1.008 the closer you get to that target, and More & more of the high sg water per change as the tank SG rises. It’s just easier to mix 5-10 gallons at a time of what you need, than have to mix/stir/test/add more "x"/mix/retest/etc. etc. everytime you gotta add something. [*]What happens if my hypo tratment exceeds 1.009? Consider any time hypo exceeds 1.009 as possible time the parasite might survive and generate a new cycle. You WILL need to add time to the total qtine/treatment process – and possibly from the point you get the sg back down. (TOTAL start over)
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What happens if during hypo (say 2-3 or 4 weeks in) I start seeing ich again? Either lower the salinity slightly more (.001 or .002max), ensure your refractometer is reading right. If you DO NOT have 000 TDS (total dissolved solids) ro/di water – goto a LFS and calibrate your refractometer using their water, and ask to see their TDS meter readings. TDS meters are available online or at Lowes/Home depot for very little $$. Wal-mart rodi/distilled/ bottled water & tap cannot be used to calibrate your refractometer, as usually that water will NOT read 000 tds, and as such does NOT equal 1.000 on your refractometer.
OR begin another type of treatment with the hypo – such as copper.
Can I use a swing type hydrometer for HYPO? NO. Not at all advisable. Swing type hydrometers are kinda inaccurate to begin with, and are most accurate at ~ 1.022 or so…..even though many swing arm types are graduated down to 1.000 and up to 1.030+, any reading outside it’s ideal range is really guess work. Time, use, and mineral deposits on a swing arm also affect its accuracy…..The only float type hydrometers that are really accurate are the 14" long master lab grade units like this:
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that break the stems off of if you fart while using/picking up/enclosing, and they’re $30+ a pop (been thru 4 myself – I keep this (#5) one as an emergency unit in case I drop/mangle my refractometer.)
>[*]DO I gotta qtine this great new fish I just bought? He has NO signs of anything, eats well, and will look SOOO good in the DT now. Ich and velvet both are totally invisible to the eye until they burrow into your fish, causing the visible signs of damage on the skin. But remember both parasite types prefer the gills to feed on, and most of them wind up there – and it’s impossible to inspect any fishes gills much if any. (at least while alive). It’s Russian Roulette getting a new anything and dumping it into the DT. It ONLY TAKES 1 to start a nightmare!!
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BUT I have cleaner shrinp AND a cleaner wrasse – won’t they get them? NOPE - SORRY – those cleaner shrimp might get the odd one or 2 that don’t get to bury DEEP under the skin/scales OR dig deep into the gills, but it ONLY TAKES 1 to feed & breed to generate hundreds more. And cleaner wrasses kinda go for large parasites like flukes/worms – on the big fishes – really big fishes that measure in feet or yards. Parasites is a very general term. This is not an option.
My ideal Qtine/hospital tank:
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/data/c/cd/cd9243b4_CIMG2226.jpeg
PVC, coffee cups & bare bottom
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Copper medications and related test kits: Cupramine is ionic or free copper and Coppersafe is chleated or buffered copper. I.M.E. Cupramine by seachem should be used with THEIR seachem copper test kit, while the Coppersafe by Mardel works best with the copper test kit by API (aquarium pharmaceuticals inc.) I’ve more experience with Coppersafe, and have found that when needed, dosages can be run quite high without killing the fish, - or fatal long-term issues, while with Cupramine, even slight exceedance can be fatal pretty quick. Coppersafe is also supposed to be easier on the fishes system. NEVER EVER mix the two. Go with one or the other.
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Cross contamination issues: If you have a fish parasite free DT – Congratulations! Keep it that way! Just remember any pipettes, nets, grabbers, hydrometers, hands – ANYTHING that comes into contact with contaminated QT water MUST either be sterilized with HOT tap for a minute or 2, washed well, OR just dedicated to the QT. Even a partial drop stuck in a pipette can introduce whatever’s in the qinte into the DT. (I’ve done it)
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Obviously – I do not believe you can treat parasites in the DT: Cause you really can’t. Hypo in your DT will cause a massive die off of most of the tiny pods, scuds, snails, worms, etc. that are GOOD – causing ammonia spikes and more problems – and for MANY reasons – copper or formalin use in the DT is impossible without destroying your system, possibly permanently. Once them parasite buggers are in there - it'll be 6-8 weeks of fallow (FISHLESS) time to erradicate (extinct) them.
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A 10-30 gallon tank usually does it – though I’ve used as small as 6 and as big as 75g.
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A heater, for the size tank you use.
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A small power filter – I like the little "penguin bio-wheel" units in the 100 - 200 size with the little bio-wheel. The filters for these have carbon grains trapped between the floss and plastic grill on the back – I carefully (don’t cut a finger) cut the plastic grill and remove the carbon if using copper or formalin. This must be done on every new filter installed during a treatment period with copper or formalin meds.
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A thermometer of some sort.
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Some DARK coffee cups & a couple 2-3" PVC couplers/elbows for hiding.
Some form of basic tank light, on a timer running ~8 hrs/day.
RO/DI water and a basic salt mix like Instant Ocean.
A small powerhead like the Hagen 20 (formally model 201) size – not big – but nice to add some extra flow for the 20g or bigger tanks. If your Qtine tank is smaller than 20g - omit it! ! the filter will do it.
Refractometer (a must) or lab grade float hydrometer
Test kits for pH, ammonia, trites, trates, copper (please see copper meds statement above)
good selection of foods.
buckets, siphon hose/vacuum, nets, & basic aquarium stuff
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So what does a total breakdown of my bare qtine take yield? As mentioned earlier, During parasite cyst stages (which can last 28+ days) the parasites can only be killed or flushed out of the qtine system during a total breakdown of the qtine tank &parts through immersion in HOT tap water & good scrubbing with a clean dish brush of the tank inside (esp. bottom). All the PVC ends, cups, filter, powerhead, heater, etc – everything but the fish, whom are in buckets in QT water get scrubbed/HOT tap treatment. This breakdown, scrub & flush with HOT tap exposes the parasite cysts to temperatures ABOVE 130f and the scrubbing action can dislodge the cysts, allowing them to journey down the drain, instead of finishing the cycle and continuing it. All the QT water gets replaced with exact new parameter water, and the only thing I may reuse is a small section of floss to help keep the tank "cycled" if only partially. Again – it’s the regular w/c, vacuuming of detritus, that keeps the tank from getting foul.
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They multiply SO fast in less than a trillion cubic meters of water! Ich and Velvet on the reef are actually rare to find on a fish. It’s when we remove the fish from there and put them in "nano" by comparison tanks that the parasites get to thrive. Either parasite can begin with only one successfully feeding. Assuming only 30% of each "hatch" survive, feed, and breed the numbers look like this: 1 becomes ~200 so 30% of the 200 = 60 survived the 1[sup]st cycle. The 60 can become 12,000 and that can be cycle #2 and in only a week. Now if 30% of the 12,000 hatchlings feed, 3600 survive and each of them multiplies ~ 200 times, now by just the 3rd[/sup] life cycle, there could be 720,000 new ones. This table gets much worse if you start with 50. And velvet is notorious for being able to multiply VERY fast, wiping out ALL exposed fish within 24 - 48 hours.
?Please Remember - that one persons experience with fish parasites does not a master make. There are more variables to a successful saltwater aquarium than there are cards in a deck. The KEY to releiving your fish of any parasites, is to isolate, identify correctly, and then treat the problem - prior to it spreading throughout the tank.
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So if you’re ready to set up a qtine/hospital tank, lets proceed to the next (shorter) page – WITH PICTURES – live build too!!! (it gets easier) :
?https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/387926/new-fish-qtine-and-treatment-procedures-thoughts-tips-points-and-plans-for-ich-velvet-part-2/20#post_3434210
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If ANY of the above statements are believed to be inaccurate, garbage, or wrongly discussed – please quote the post, but DELETE ALL the other bullet points to prevent the thread from blowing up.
For those advanced aquarists, I know there’ll be some disagreements in this basic outline - - THAT"S OK - this was meant to basically describe MY experiences/methods used since 2001 Qtining hundreds of various SW fish– for myself and friends and to share that history with the new-comer to the hobby.
(This answers A LOT of common questions prior to starting – I tried to get ALL the most common ones answered – I see these all the time in various forums, on multiple websites and wanted to compile a DETAILED list of experiences and thoughts)
It’s VERY long – so just read the "bullet point" bold headlines to see if you’re interested. It’d be torture to read it all – I apologize in advance, but these questions come up again & again & again. However – it’s user active – as at the end, YOU’ALL will select some fish for me to Qtine/treat, and actually show my methods in practice.
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When quoting this post for comment, correction, disagreement, or in general, please DELETE all but the specific bullet points in the quote – to prevent the thread from getting
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When should I set up a Qtine/hospital tank? Before going to the LFS or ordering a new fish online – it’s usually best to set up and get running a Qtine tank system several days in advance, setting the SG to ~1.021 and the temp to 79f. It needs to be stable and running for a couple days, prior to fish addition to ensure all your equipment is ready and the system runs consistently and temp is very stable. An AIR pump is not necessary, but very helpful ensuring oxygen saturation of the qtine water later on. Don’t come home with a new fish in the bag, and a qtine tank to have to set up same day. (Though I’ve done it! More than once.)
What does my LFS keep their tanks at? It can also be very helpful if you know the LFS you will be getting your fish from what their tanks SG/temp/PH is, and set yours accordingly. Most good LFS know, and if in doubt – ask them to test it for ya & write it down. Most online retailers will really not know, or be accurate, as the person you deal with either on the phone OR through email, likely has no access to the tanks. Most retail places run 1.020 – 1.023 for fish only systems. Possibly a bit higher if the fish come out of a combined (reef) system.
How should I cycle my Qtine tank? You can set up a qtine tank, just like a DT, by forcing it to cycle using some raw shrimp for 3-4 days then removing, and allowing the cycle to complete – about a month. It’s the best way – but takes time and planning ahead (like who does that?)…. OR I usually use a piece of filter floss from a known parasite clear DT tank and add that floss piece (maybe credit card size) to go into the qtine filter assembly to add the nitrifying bacters to the system. (Incase I don’t wanna wait a month)… In a pinch you can use a section of filter media from your infected DT – but use it throughout the qtine process – don’t go back and get more later…. Also – "cycled" or DT water really has little to offer as far as nitrifying bacteria colonies, and is pointless to use in setting up a qtine tank – ESPICALLY IF THE DT IS INFECTED. I’ll cycle a bare (no substrate/rock) tank and allow the good bacteria to form in my filter. The cycle process IS NOT dependent on rock & sand, and the good bacteria form just fine on filter floss. "cycle" and "amquel" can help through the Qtine process.[*]Using pre "cycled" water from the DT: Not necessary or beneficial really when setting up a Qtine tank. The nitrifying bacteria colonies needed for NH3 (ammonia) breakdown exist & grow on surfaces within the system. The water alone holds none virtually of these colonies.
Getting new fishes home.
- On the receipt of a new fish (s) inspect them for parasites and acclimate them via drip or other method for at least ½ -1 hour before putting them into the Qtine system at ~1.021 or so with NO medications.. Usually do this introduction into the QT with the lights off, and off for the first few hours once introduced to the Qtine tank. DO NOT try to introduce a fish directly into hypo – it should take 2 days to get down to 1.009. Can you breath at 15,000 feet? NOT without some days at progressively higher altitudes, so why ask a fish to go from 1.021 sg to 1.009 sg in a couple hours? It can be done – but only for advanced aquarists..
Looking for problems/what to look for.
- After the first few hours or the next day when lights are ON, begin really inspecting the fish(s) for ich or velvet. See here for a helpful link for ich: https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/forum/thread/127010/diseased-fish-pictures
As for velvet pictures – please google it and look/compare as many pictures as you can stand. Velvet is so small and hard to really photo well, that most "really coated" looking pictures of a fish with it on the web are a combination of velvet with other more visible issues.
Remember – ich forms tiny white/pink/yellow pimples that kinda resemble "salt grains" or little "pustules/tiny zits" ….Ich can also be more visible in the morning or beginning of the tank day cycle… Velvet is MUCH smaller and more prevalent, resembling a fish with "Flour" on it – or a "haze" and faded colors – esp in "cloudy" areas of the fishes body…Both parasites cause fast breathing, scratching, darting/flashing behavior, excess slime production, frayed fins, and eventually death.
Continue this inspection in Qtine daily for at least a month – 5-6 weeks is better OR until signs are discovered, then identify the culprit and treat accordingly. If no signs appear – your lucky and can go to the DT with them. If signs do appear, then identify what it is and treat..
Regarding velvet, another odd symptom I’ve witnessed a few times in a velvet outbreak on a fish in hypo – is like overnight a fish that was eating, getting fatter, looking better, suddenly craps out all its guts and has a very shrunken/pinched belly and now refuses to eat. Usually very fast breathing (more than 80 breaths/minute) accompanies this symptom, and sadly, I’ve yet to save a fish when these 2 things happen. Yes – the 3[sup]rd[/sup] sign of velvet accompanies this with a "bleaching" or "cloudy" look in color, a sudden loss of color, or large splotches of "clouds" appear too – but So far in 10 years, when these 3 things show up – it’s over within 12-18 hours, and I’ve not been able to treat the velvet outbreak that late in the game. Ich is more common, and moves slower compared to velvet.
BUT velvet requires IMMEDIATE treatment with copper or formalin. Every hour counts with this malaise and sadly once a positive ID is made it may be too late. So if in doubt treat for it sooner than later. Hypo has NO effect on Velvet.
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Feeding & foods It’s best to receive the new fish, get them acclimated to the qtine tank, and see if they’ll eat PRIOR to starting any treatments. Offer a variety of several types to introduce some feeding. I feed the same in qtine/treatment as I will in the DT, so frozen preparations, dried nori, mysis, even some dry flake/pellet should all be available for the type of fish(s) you have (herbivore/carnivore). Always offer a selection of a few things. If your fish arrives obviously infected, then it may be necessary to begin a treatment WHILE trying to get the thing to eat. If the fish refuses to eat, then it’s gonna be your call on which issue becomes critical first – starvation OR parasites. Also ASK the lfs what they are feeding – and ask them to feed the tank (s) your desired fishes are in and select the healthy fishes that are eating. Have them bag these ones for you to take home.
What about liverock and substrate in my qtine tank?
- I do not use live rock or substrate in a Qtine tank because:
The parasites (ich AND velvet) both have a "cyst" or cocoon stage, and during this stage, they prefer a "natural" medium to cyst and multiply on (rock/sand). Also during this cysted stage hypo/copper/formalin all have NO affect as there is NO water consumption of the cysted parasite – so "normal" parameters maintained in a qtine tank cannot kill the cysts – without killing fish first.
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During this cyst stage (which can last 28+ days) the parasites can be killed or flushed out of the qtine system during a total breakdown of the qtine tank &parts thru immersion in HOT tap water & good scrubbing with a clean dish brush of the tank inside (esp. bottom), PVC ends, cups, filter, powerhead, heater, etc – everything but the fish, whom are in buckets. This breakdown, scrub & flush with HOT tap exposes the parasite cysts to temperatures ABOVE 130f and the scrubbing action can dislodge the cysts, allowing them to journey down the drain, instead of finishing the cycle and continuing it.
Live rock and sand are hard to expose to HOT tap and lots of scrubbing, thus killing off cysted parasites, without causing more problems later on. – so why use it to begin with – and it’s the natural media the parasites expect..
Rock and substrate CAN absorb copper or other meds, resulting in difficulty in maintaining the "medication treatment window" necessary. If copper has to be used later, it must be kept in a treatment window where there’s enough to kill the free-swimming parasites, but not enough to kill the fish. Medication levels too low result in parasites surviving, and continuing their cycle – OR levels to high = dead fish. Over-treating a qtine tank can kill fish in hours, so test your levels regularly and after every water change.
Even Live Rock (containing all sorts of good thingys like tiny worms, snails, pods, etc.) exposed to hypo alone – WILL result in the death of most of those little creatures, only adding to the ammonia levels spiking in the qtine system.
It is very likely any rock or substrate used in qtine/treatment will absorb some copper, only to release it later in life if that rock is used in a DT – possibly killing off sensitive inverts like corals/shrimps/stars/etc. So with the cost of the stuff, why waste it? OR run the risk? Use coffee cups/PVC ends for fish shelter/comfort. (IME)
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[*]A lid covering the majority of a qtine tank is very helpful – as frequently when a parasite "burrows" or "digs" into a fishes side, IT HURTS! ! This can startle the fish, causing even fish NOT KNOWN to be jumpers, to fly out of your qtine tank. Only to die on the floor.[*]Hypo for ich AND velvet? Hypo works well (usually) for marine ich ONLY. Hypo does NOTHING for marine velvet, and velvet is a much more serious and rapid creature – fully capable of killing every fish exposed to velvet-laden water within 24-48 hours. Velvet can survive at specific gravities as low as 1.003 and as high as 1.035 {Noga, 1996} and your fishes won’t! ! ! Copper and/or formalin are the tools to handle this beast. (velvet)
Why it’s also best NOT to get multiple fishes from multiple sources to qtine at the same time in same tank
- … – Your tang from place "X" may have a tiny (invisible) ich problem, your blenny from "Y" may be clean, but the clownfish from "Z" has a touch of velvet. Mix together and your gonna have 3 fish with an ich AND
- velvet issue in short order. Also it’s best to not add more fish into the qtine tank after the first couple/3-4 days. Usually a "hierarchy" or pecking order is established pretty quick, especially with multiple fish in a small 10-30 gal qtine tank. Adding more later only upsets the order, causing aggression issues AND again can bring a different parasite/disease/virus into your QT system. I almost ALWAYS qtine multiple (several) fish at the same time, but I TRY to get them from ONE source, and introduce them all at the same event. In fact, I’ve found that tangs actually do better in qtine over the 6 weeks or so if NOT alone
- , and even if it’s just a little ¾" blue damsel, I’ll buy it with the tang, just to qtine with him, then return or give away the damsel when done…..though I’ve kept some damn damsels around. (regrettably)
How do I maintain water quality in a Qtine tank without a cycle?
- Primarily water changes (10-20% every couple days) and regular (daily) small vacuuming of poop & uneaten food help keep water parameters (ammonia and trates/trites) in check. pH is also hard to maintain at hypo (1.008-.009) without adding buffers of some type SO be prepared to check pH every couple days AND after (during) each water change
- – adjusting accordingly. Also – when adding powdered pH buffers, dissolve them well in water, and add SLOWLY
- to qtine tank to raise pH but do not overshoot! It’s best to add slightly LESS
- than you calculate, and check pH again after a few hours, only adding more then if needed. It’s ALWAYS
- easier to bring a water parameter into proper level, without overshooting, and possibly stressing/killing your fish. "Amquel and Cycle" can aid in maintaining a qtine tank
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How do these parasites feed? Both parasite types prefer the fish’s gills to feed on, as there is less effort getting to the blood they need to continue the cycle there. The gills are usually infected WORSE than the body, and lots of signs of parasites on the fishes body ensure the gills are heavily infected – resulting in the fast breathing, gill damage, and eventually the fishes gills are so damaged, they cannot extract the Oxygen from the water anymore, and the fish "drowns" (basically)
What’s a good "human equivalent" of these parasites?
- Think of ich or velvet as a mosquito (they are all parasites)…..a female mosquito must feed on RED BLOOD (a couple times) in order to gain the energy to bring her thousands of eggs to a point where she can lay them, and they’ll hatch. Maybe not this year will they hatch, but they can survive the frozen winter to hatch in the spring, continuing the cycle. Ich & velvet do a similar thing – they must have 1
- red blooded feeding to gain the energy to leave the fish, cyst (cocoon), and instead of laying eggs, it’s inside this cocoon where they split (multiply) – so 1 becomes 2, then 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256. This splitting process may take al little as a couple days, or 28+ to Finnish – and during this time the cyst uses NO water in the system, so hypo/copper/formalin have NO affect. Temperature CAN speed up the multiplication process, but it’s NO GUARENTEE - even with warm tank water, they can wait. Only very HOT tap and scrubbing to dislodge the cyst can help reduce their numbers. ….
When an infested fish dies
- from ich OR velvet many things (mostly BAD) begin to happen fast.
ALL the feeding parasites leave the dead host within a couple hours – resulting in a possible MASS infestation, as suddenly there are hundreds if not thousands MORE parasites in the water column, than there would have been, many going directly to another live red-blooded host, and the others who fed enough to begin the cyst cycle, finding a place to cyst and multiply.
The deceased fish releases lots of toxins very quick into the water, polluting it, stressing the others.
Remove the dead fishes ASAP! As soon as breathing basically has stopped. (if possible to determine) If you wake up and see one has died – get it out!
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Going down and coming back up with salinity: going down should take 2 full days to get to 1.008 or 1.009. It should take a full 5-7 days to come back up to DT or 1.021 levels….To make life easier with a 20g qtine tank - mix 2 buckets (about 10 gal) of plain RO/DI with just enough buffer in it to get a pH of 8.0 and use this to refill the qtine tank coming down…. just siphon ~5% out of the qtine tank and replace it with the "mix" TWICE per day, one AM one PM till you get there – checking with the refractometer after each change. During Hypo - mix your water with salt to get 1.008 and buffer to 8.0 in the same buckets and use these for regular w/c during hypo. A cheep "penguin" type powerhead helps keep it mixed. On coming back up, I’ll mix saltwater at 1.028 – 1.031 in the same 5 gal buckets and just replace ~5% 2X per day till QT tank reaches DT salinity – again checking SG after each am/pm w/c.. You will notice it takes more 0.000 sg water per change to reach 1.008 the closer you get to that target, and More & more of the high sg water per change as the tank SG rises. It’s just easier to mix 5-10 gallons at a time of what you need, than have to mix/stir/test/add more "x"/mix/retest/etc. etc. everytime you gotta add something. [*]What happens if my hypo tratment exceeds 1.009? Consider any time hypo exceeds 1.009 as possible time the parasite might survive and generate a new cycle. You WILL need to add time to the total qtine/treatment process – and possibly from the point you get the sg back down. (TOTAL start over)
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What happens if during hypo (say 2-3 or 4 weeks in) I start seeing ich again? Either lower the salinity slightly more (.001 or .002max), ensure your refractometer is reading right. If you DO NOT have 000 TDS (total dissolved solids) ro/di water – goto a LFS and calibrate your refractometer using their water, and ask to see their TDS meter readings. TDS meters are available online or at Lowes/Home depot for very little $$. Wal-mart rodi/distilled/ bottled water & tap cannot be used to calibrate your refractometer, as usually that water will NOT read 000 tds, and as such does NOT equal 1.000 on your refractometer.
OR begin another type of treatment with the hypo – such as copper.
Can I use a swing type hydrometer for HYPO? NO. Not at all advisable. Swing type hydrometers are kinda inaccurate to begin with, and are most accurate at ~ 1.022 or so…..even though many swing arm types are graduated down to 1.000 and up to 1.030+, any reading outside it’s ideal range is really guess work. Time, use, and mineral deposits on a swing arm also affect its accuracy…..The only float type hydrometers that are really accurate are the 14" long master lab grade units like this:
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that break the stems off of if you fart while using/picking up/enclosing, and they’re $30+ a pop (been thru 4 myself – I keep this (#5) one as an emergency unit in case I drop/mangle my refractometer.)
>[*]DO I gotta qtine this great new fish I just bought? He has NO signs of anything, eats well, and will look SOOO good in the DT now. Ich and velvet both are totally invisible to the eye until they burrow into your fish, causing the visible signs of damage on the skin. But remember both parasite types prefer the gills to feed on, and most of them wind up there – and it’s impossible to inspect any fishes gills much if any. (at least while alive). It’s Russian Roulette getting a new anything and dumping it into the DT. It ONLY TAKES 1 to start a nightmare!!
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BUT I have cleaner shrinp AND a cleaner wrasse – won’t they get them? NOPE - SORRY – those cleaner shrimp might get the odd one or 2 that don’t get to bury DEEP under the skin/scales OR dig deep into the gills, but it ONLY TAKES 1 to feed & breed to generate hundreds more. And cleaner wrasses kinda go for large parasites like flukes/worms – on the big fishes – really big fishes that measure in feet or yards. Parasites is a very general term. This is not an option.
But I only bought a new coral or other invert so why qtine that?
- It only takes 1 drop of contaminated water from another system to bring a fish parasite into yours and usually at most LFS – MANY of those tanks are actually interconnected behind the walls and all share the same water. Yes there are UV sterilizers sometimes back there – but are the bulbs good? Are they working? Set up properly? Been cleaned recently? Have the correct flow? It’s possible for a coral only in wall "sales" tank to share the same water as the one with some sick fish 6 or 10 feet away, on the same wall. So what those fish got may be cysted on the coral frags, snail shell, hermit shell, live rock, etc. in a totally different tank. BESIDES
- corals & rock chunks with frags from the LFS, online retailer, ocean, can harbor aiptasia, red mites, bad snails, bad crabs, bad worms, etc. so why just add that to the DT too without at least a month of evaluation in a separate system? And aside from FISH parasites – there are a dozen coral diseases/parasites/malaise that can wreak havoc on your sysetm.
Should I even bother with qtine? – it seems such a hassle.
- Again, it’s really a game of Russian Roulette. Eventually if you add enough stuff, your gonna get some fishborne thingy – so why not just learn with the 1-3 fish you just bought, rather than having to try to save a DT full later on after a breakout? Yes some have gone years with large DT tanks full of fish and never had the JOY (not) of finding ich spots on everyone in a 180g. I didn’t qinte in the beginning and lost many fishes, learning eventually that you don’t trust a drop of water or anything from someone else’s system, unless you really know they are clean.
- Beware of feeding your fish live foods (glass shrimp) from the LFS – just like with corals mentioned above – the tank they are in likely shares water with another(s) that contains fish (unless you see different, like a stand alone system) still buyer beware on live foods.
My ideal Qtine/hospital tank:
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/data/c/cd/cd9243b4_CIMG2226.jpeg
PVC, coffee cups & bare bottom
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Copper medications and related test kits: Cupramine is ionic or free copper and Coppersafe is chleated or buffered copper. I.M.E. Cupramine by seachem should be used with THEIR seachem copper test kit, while the Coppersafe by Mardel works best with the copper test kit by API (aquarium pharmaceuticals inc.) I’ve more experience with Coppersafe, and have found that when needed, dosages can be run quite high without killing the fish, - or fatal long-term issues, while with Cupramine, even slight exceedance can be fatal pretty quick. Coppersafe is also supposed to be easier on the fishes system. NEVER EVER mix the two. Go with one or the other.
Formalin tratment:
- Formalin is 3% formaldehyde solution and is VERY strong stuff. It MUST be used exactly as directed, and dosages cannot be measured as there is NO test kit for it. Water changes during this treatment are critical, as you must know how much water you took out of qtine, so when you refill the tank, you can add the exact number of drops needed to maintain a parasite kill window. The product is strong
- , as 1 ounce treats 500 gallons, so it’s a drop by drop dosage in a 10-70 gallon tank. SO proceed carefully with this treatment, follow directions, and replace the dosage as waterchanges are done carefully.
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Cross contamination issues: If you have a fish parasite free DT – Congratulations! Keep it that way! Just remember any pipettes, nets, grabbers, hydrometers, hands – ANYTHING that comes into contact with contaminated QT water MUST either be sterilized with HOT tap for a minute or 2, washed well, OR just dedicated to the QT. Even a partial drop stuck in a pipette can introduce whatever’s in the qinte into the DT. (I’ve done it)
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Obviously – I do not believe you can treat parasites in the DT: Cause you really can’t. Hypo in your DT will cause a massive die off of most of the tiny pods, scuds, snails, worms, etc. that are GOOD – causing ammonia spikes and more problems – and for MANY reasons – copper or formalin use in the DT is impossible without destroying your system, possibly permanently. Once them parasite buggers are in there - it'll be 6-8 weeks of fallow (FISHLESS) time to erradicate (extinct) them.
Using airpumps and airstones:
- When using copper meds (either type) it’s helpful to have an airstone to help maintain O2 levels. Copper treatments REDUCE the ability of the water to absorb oxygen, resulting in low O2 levels. Good surface agitation helps A LOT if using copper alone or with hypo, along with cooler tank temps (cooler water will hold more O2 than warmer - so under 80f)
Using a protein skimmer on a Qtine tank:
- I do not use, nor recommend it. Protein skimmers can cause some copper meds to dissolve out and will cause formalin treatments to be less effective. (the rapid aeration can cause issues) Again – water changes, vacuuming of uneaten food/detritus and control is the goal of maintaining Qtine tank water parameters. A protien skimmer is for display tanks - our goal is to keep fish alive.
- Yes – it does help using both of these products while treating fish in the qtine system. The cycle helps provide some nitrifying bacteria, helping to keep qtine water quality better. The Amquel helps reduce ammonia – just do not rely on them in lieu of water changes – they still need to be done every couple/3-4 days, all depending on how big your qtine tank is, and how heavily it’s stocked. I regularly use both with hypo and/or copper in qtine – but they are just aids, and waterchanges are the best, adding only drops of each after the w/c. Don’t overdose either.
Adding garlic/additives to fish food for resistance -
- About as effective as adding garlic or some other additive to your
- diet to fight cancer. Usually any "quotes" that garlic is a "magic cure all" is just words when it comes to ich or velvet…Yes – some have had a few fish survive a tank wipeout – but to correlate that with diet is the same as conceiving the virgin birth… The results are likely not related. Garlic or some other additive MAY get a picky fish to eat - but in NO way has anything to do with curing a fish of parasites.
What equipment do I suggest for the Qtine tank itself?
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A 10-30 gallon tank usually does it – though I’ve used as small as 6 and as big as 75g.
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A heater, for the size tank you use.
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A small power filter – I like the little "penguin bio-wheel" units in the 100 - 200 size with the little bio-wheel. The filters for these have carbon grains trapped between the floss and plastic grill on the back – I carefully (don’t cut a finger) cut the plastic grill and remove the carbon if using copper or formalin. This must be done on every new filter installed during a treatment period with copper or formalin meds.
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A thermometer of some sort.
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Some DARK coffee cups & a couple 2-3" PVC couplers/elbows for hiding.
Some form of basic tank light, on a timer running ~8 hrs/day.
RO/DI water and a basic salt mix like Instant Ocean.
A small powerhead like the Hagen 20 (formally model 201) size – not big – but nice to add some extra flow for the 20g or bigger tanks. If your Qtine tank is smaller than 20g - omit it! ! the filter will do it.
Refractometer (a must) or lab grade float hydrometer
Test kits for pH, ammonia, trites, trates, copper (please see copper meds statement above)
good selection of foods.
buckets, siphon hose/vacuum, nets, & basic aquarium stuff
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So what does a total breakdown of my bare qtine take yield? As mentioned earlier, During parasite cyst stages (which can last 28+ days) the parasites can only be killed or flushed out of the qtine system during a total breakdown of the qtine tank &parts through immersion in HOT tap water & good scrubbing with a clean dish brush of the tank inside (esp. bottom). All the PVC ends, cups, filter, powerhead, heater, etc – everything but the fish, whom are in buckets in QT water get scrubbed/HOT tap treatment. This breakdown, scrub & flush with HOT tap exposes the parasite cysts to temperatures ABOVE 130f and the scrubbing action can dislodge the cysts, allowing them to journey down the drain, instead of finishing the cycle and continuing it. All the QT water gets replaced with exact new parameter water, and the only thing I may reuse is a small section of floss to help keep the tank "cycled" if only partially. Again – it’s the regular w/c, vacuuming of detritus, that keeps the tank from getting foul.
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They multiply SO fast in less than a trillion cubic meters of water! Ich and Velvet on the reef are actually rare to find on a fish. It’s when we remove the fish from there and put them in "nano" by comparison tanks that the parasites get to thrive. Either parasite can begin with only one successfully feeding. Assuming only 30% of each "hatch" survive, feed, and breed the numbers look like this: 1 becomes ~200 so 30% of the 200 = 60 survived the 1[sup]st cycle. The 60 can become 12,000 and that can be cycle #2 and in only a week. Now if 30% of the 12,000 hatchlings feed, 3600 survive and each of them multiplies ~ 200 times, now by just the 3rd[/sup] life cycle, there could be 720,000 new ones. This table gets much worse if you start with 50. And velvet is notorious for being able to multiply VERY fast, wiping out ALL exposed fish within 24 - 48 hours.
Sometimes they just die:
- Been more than once during hypo, or a mix of treatments, or even AFTER hypo, and 2-3 days AFTER slowly getting the sg back up to normal, a fish just gives out. He was eating/swimming/fat/happy with no
- visible disease/issues, and suddenly he was on his side – it happens….. Hypo (even though more "natural / less toxic" than other treatments is still a condition saltwater fish have NEVER experienced, regardless if you believe in creation or evolution – SW fish never experience SG changes of more than .002 on the reef. Hypo is VERY hard on their systems, and some take it better than others. Usually the cause of this sudden death is an internal failure of the fishes organs, resulting in the fish being unable to convert the saltwater into freshwater for it’s survival….. It’s hard to imagine a fish "dehydrating" but it happens when they can no longer convert SW into FW. Another cause of sudden death is the method of capture in the wild… Not so common anymore, but cyanide solution used to be used frequently to "flush a fish" from hiding. It works well to catch one in the wild on the reef – but it results in terminal damage to those internal organs, leaving the fish to die usually within 2 months of cyanide exposure.
?Please Remember - that one persons experience with fish parasites does not a master make. There are more variables to a successful saltwater aquarium than there are cards in a deck. The KEY to releiving your fish of any parasites, is to isolate, identify correctly, and then treat the problem - prior to it spreading throughout the tank.
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So if you’re ready to set up a qtine/hospital tank, lets proceed to the next (shorter) page – WITH PICTURES – live build too!!! (it gets easier) :
?https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/387926/new-fish-qtine-and-treatment-procedures-thoughts-tips-points-and-plans-for-ich-velvet-part-2/20#post_3434210
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If ANY of the above statements are believed to be inaccurate, garbage, or wrongly discussed – please quote the post, but DELETE ALL the other bullet points to prevent the thread from blowing up.
For those advanced aquarists, I know there’ll be some disagreements in this basic outline - - THAT"S OK - this was meant to basically describe MY experiences/methods used since 2001 Qtining hundreds of various SW fish– for myself and friends and to share that history with the new-comer to the hobby.
