New fish Qtine and Treatment Procedures, Thoughts, Tips, Points, and Plans for ich & velvet PART 2

tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
So to update:
The fish in the 20g are great, and will be in the same routine for the next couple weeks of every-other day waterchanges, daily feedings, vacumming, etc. Nothing new gonna happen till mid/late October when we'll raise SG and get them ready for some time in a 90g for some weeks of isolation - to further ensure NO ich/problems arise...sg still 1.008, temp78, pH 8. Were changing about 5 gallons everyother day.
The 75g qtine tank was established using new water and an emporor 400 filter unit, with established fliter media, less carbon 1 week ago.....yesterday it received 2 morrish idols, 3 small tangs, and 4 little chromis...
(this is a closeup pic - the naso is the biggest at 4")

The established filter media is the key to this, as the nitryfing bacter colonies I need to run a 75g qtine tank this heavily stocked, I have to have good ammonia breakdown..This emporor 400 filter is one of 2 I run on my 90g coral qtine tank, and the filter pads/bio-wheels in it were laden with good bacteria colonies.. All I did to prep it for use in fish qtine with copper is slice it open and remove all the carbon. Did NOT rinse with tap water or anything. In an absolute emergency I could have set this tank up overnite and added fish with new carbon removed filters - but could not stock it this heavy and future waterchanges would be more regular. In an emergency though (say an ich breakout in my DT) - I would remove my fish and get them into qtine asap - like same day and just monitor water parameters/do lots of waterchanges.
Tangs have confirmed ich, so we will begin treatment----this time hypo will not be used, as I;ve never hypoed Idols, so were going the cupramine route for starters - with formalin as a backup. Many years ago when I last had idols, they did well in qtine with cupramine - though they are so similar to tangs, hypo probably wouldn't hurt em - but since both are eating green nori sheet am taking no chances and going with what I know works. They are difficult fish. I may drop the salinity to 1.020 - just to make it easier on the fishes during treatment - nut probably no lower. This will be ich extinction thru meds.
SO - last nite the fish were introduced to the basic tank, NO meds....Today after ensuring all were eating - per cupramine directions, performed the day 1 treatment (50%)..tank temp is 78.5, PH 8.1, sg 1.023.
AM offering green nori, 3 different frozen preprations, and some flake.....With new fish, that arrive thin, I always feed alot and vary to get them to eat....BUT I have to vaccuum out uneaten food daily - till they develop a good routine of eating foods, and their bellies aren't so pinched. Just remember to add back copper or other meds after vaccuming/refilling (waterchanges) so your medication levels remain constant.... Also test every couple/3 days, or whenever in doubt of what the med levels are.
Here's a bette shot of both hospital/qtine tanks:

Obviously, this is a temporary tank with fishes...I'd never put tangs or idols in a 75 longterm!
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
So - it's been a few days, here's what's happened.....
On the 20 gal qtine tank, been doing daily vacuuming of detritus, and refilling with 1.008 water - roughly 2 gal/day. The orange shoulder tang and chromis are all eating great - no signs of ich for 3 weeks now. Performed a 100% waterchange 2 days ago, while the fish were in buckets, the whole tank/contents were scrubbed with hot tap water and the whole system re-established using the same chunk of filter floss the tank was originally established with...This should be the last time a MAJOR system breakdown happens
On the 75 gallon tank, the 2 idols and 3 tangs are doing very well - eating nori and marine cusine like crazy... Copper levels (cupramine) are kept at .3 ppm/sg 1.021/ph 8.0/temp 78deg. 2 doses of formalin have been added for worm control on the tangs (suspect internal worms). I did lose the flame angle 4 days into treatment....I've had NO luck treating dwarf angles with copper.......hypo seems better/easier on them.. The 75g gets a 10% vacuum & waterchange daily. maintaining copper/ph levels. A 1/2 dose of "amquel" and "cycle" everyother day really help keep ammonia levels in check.

(the cups are all upside down because the yellow-belly tang just hides and doesn't eat if he can "hide"...so I take away his real hiding places - and force him to be "public & eat")
another pic of the idols&tangs in the 75g.

I know from experience most wrasses do not do well in hypo and will likely die - while angle fishes seem to die in copper treated tanks...Tangs, damsels, firefish, chromis, rabbit fish. triggers, and grammas seem to do well in either treatment...I've had the worst luck though with wrasses treated with hypo and/or angles in coppper...... For any aquarist - research the best treatment before bringing a specimen home. . . Some fish take hypo or copper better than others.
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
So it's been about a week since the last update so here tis:
the 75 gal qtine tank has seen daily 10% or so waterchanges and since this experiment is ich/parasite irridacation via meds - adequate copper has been added daily to maintain a .3ppm or so level curpamine meds, using seachem copper test kit...A partial dose of "amquel" was added every other day since bringing this qtine tank online - but now is no longer required - as the bio-load is being handled by the filter unit we set up in the beginning... All 3 tangs, both idols, and 4 chromis are eating great....the tangs&idols love nori on a clip while the chromis dig into the marine cusine....which the others also eat up....Other frozen foods like "home-made", emerald entree, PE mysis, angle&butterfly formula, dried pellet or flake do not get eatnen.....This is why it's VERY critical to OFFER a wide variety of foods, but be pleased if only some are actually eaten. remember to vaccuum out that uneaten food about daily till you fid something they'll all eat.
I've had 1 problem so far - the idols were fighting/getting wrestless in only a 75g, so today, one idol was moved into a 90g "hotel" tank A bit too early for my taste - would have preferred another 10 dys/2weeks in treated qtine - but aggression between the 2 warranted change.....I'd rather fight ick again rather than a secodary maliase/bacterial infectiojn due to frayed finns. if ick/parasites come back on this fish - he'll go back into qtine&treatment...., while his friends/tankmates will go into a new and seperate 75g tank that's currently dry.....
1 idol in the 90g

2 hippos, an idol, and a naso in the 75g:

The orange shoulder tang in the 20g tank is doin great. Again, daily waterchanges of 10% were done, with a premix batch of water...... It's SO easy to mix water at 1.008/pH 8.0 in advance, and just drain/refill. It takes only minutes to do it this way versus mixing salt to get the right sg/ph every time....This tang is still kinda shy - but eats great and has put on body mass + a plump belly since aquiring.. . Hypo was the primary treatment here, taking 2 full days to get down to 1.008, and he'll spend at least a week getting back up to normal SG, 1.023.....but for now - he, the clown, and the group of chromis are perfect,,,,

a better shot of the naso that belongs to deejeff442......pic taken this morn well after lights out, wo colors are kinda blotchy

Note - cups are all upside-down cause the hippos just lay inside them and don't eat enough........so cups upside-down to prevent them from just hiding all the time.
SO in a perfect world both idols, 3 tangs, and some chromis would all be medicated water still. - and the fish in hypo could. Also Am going to bring the IOS tang out of hypo about 10 days 2 weeks earlier than expected ...It's kinda a deviation from the original plan but we'll make it work@@
 
mr. limpid

mr. limpid

Active Member
Ok I have to ask not being mean, you have Idol's why, you know something there rest of don't in how to keep them alive? I know one guy from New York who has kept an Idol alive for over a year. He is feeding him a plant that he harvest himself from the waters off of wear he lives. Really want to know what your plan is to keeping them alive? Truly this one fish I have always want to keep.
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Limpid http:///t/387926/new-fish-qtine-and-treatment-procedures-thoughts-tips-points-and-plans-for-ich-velvet-part-2/20#post_3429963
Ok I have to ask not being mean, you have Idol's why, you know something there rest of don't in how to keep them alive? I know one guy from New York who has kept an Idol alive for over a year. He is feeding him a plant that he harvest himself from the waters off of wear he lives. Really want to know what your plan is to keeping them alive? Truly this one fish I have always want to keep.
There are 3 reasons am running a pair of idols + 4 tangs thru copper/formalin/hypo treatment is to show that...
1. Hypo, copper, and formalin treatmetns can all be used - depending on the fish species you want to have, and with some PRIOR research as to what treatment yeilds the best success rate for your fishes......some species do better with hypo alone, where as others handle copper or a combo of copper with formalin to rid of ich/worms/parasites.... If one is going to get a fish of some type and plan to Qtine it, it's REQUIRED that you know what traetment works best for your species, AND to have all necessary equipment on hand to do it.
2. I wanted to show that even the most difficult of fishes (idols) CAN be treated for ich, and successfully reared beyond, assuming you get one (or a pair) that eats......luckily my current pair of idols eat like hogs, or tangs - pick your choice........my idols are VERY hungry for purple or green nori, and LOVE marine cusine, angle&butterfly formula, and mysis......this is the same diet I successfully kept a pair of Zanculus cornutus many years ago..
3. I wanted a final "priceless" addition to my 475 reef tank - and I could not think of a better addition to close out the stunning variety of fish I currently own than to again attempt the "curse of the idol' ....I've kept them before - and only thru stupidity did I loose my original pair.
Idols are really not IMPOSSIBLE to keep - BUT one must be very equipped with multiple methods of Qtine/parasite erradication......be able/ready to offer EVERY type of food known (I have different 12 frozen, 4 pellet, 6 flake) just to get one or 2 Idols to eat in the beginning......once you get one eating - and living......it's time to offer ALOT of different foods to vary their diet......The pair I have eat great.....now.....but I've wasted like 2 pounds of various foods, and vaccuumed it all out daily, when they didn't eat it.....The first week/10 days was the worst, as all I did was offer huge variety&quanity of foods - only to watch then pick/nip at at and spit most of it out....By the 2nd week - they had selected nori on a clip, mysis, and marine cusine - - but all other foods at this time get spit out/ignored...Idols are likely the most challenging to keep, and ONLY if you get one that'll eat in the beginning, do you have a chance of success. Sadly, only 1 of 3 idols will even eat anything in captivity - but I got lucky with 2 that eat like crazy. Years ago, when I last Qtined idols - i found cupramine with formalin very effective with NO longterm illl effects.....the only reason I did NOT subject alll the fish in the 75g to HYPO traetment (which tangs do fine) is I've never hypoed an idol. and since I was blessed with a pair that'd eat nori from the start - it wasn't "experimentation" time........do what u know works, meds rather than hypo.
Idols ARE NOT easy - and I just hope they'll continue to eat like they do now in qtine, when they get into the 475....as far as them eating my sps/lps - that's the least of my worries right now - as it'll be a month before they get into the DT....and from experience, a well fed idol pair will be happy with all the foods I feed, and ignore the work it takes to eat corals. My tangs can teach them what's edible too - cause they eat everything/anything....
SO - longterm care/feeding will involve keeping their diet just as wide as my tang/angle collection is - and considering I feed everything - they'll likely be fine, as long as they keep eating!!!!
Biggest problem with ANY fish is failure to eat.....at any time after aquriing.....but as long as they'll eat - you can treat them for maliase, and keep them alive for years afterwards...
The key to keeping an idol is to get one that eats in the beginning....then waste several bucks/day in foods, and do 10% + daily vaccuuming / waterchanges......by day10, you've spent MORE in food & salt than the fish was worth ($60)...but only die hard idiots keep idols....They have very aquired tastes, and keeping one is just as aquired.....so far so good with my pair - - - but it's only been a month. Keeping them fat helps, if they'll eat. Odds are good now, my pair will still be around in 12 months. After that - should be a decade+ relationship
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
SO - SINCE OUR LAST UPDATE:
The 20g Qtine tank that held 1 orange shoulder tang, 1 ocellearis clown and 5 little chromis spent the last week comming out of hypo......This was done by adding 10% 1.025 satlwater to the 1.008 hypo treatment we had running on a daily basis.....I brought the 20g tank up by about .003 per day increase and once they were at 1.023, a couple days ago, these fish joined the idol in the 90g isolation/monitor tank....these fish will ALL be monitored for the next 3 weeks for additional issues, and if an ich re-occurance happens - they'll all go back into treatment in a 30 or 55g tank.......BUT - so far so good, all are eating and no parasite signs...Eveyrone seems happy in the 90 (no meds/hypo treatment) . Their original tank (20) is running fallow now, lights off....and if need be at the first sign of problems - the fish can all go back in AND this tank can be expanded to a 30g or 55 or even 75 - all of which are dry at the moment.....
The curcial part of comming OUT of HYPO is not to come up to fast.....about .002 - .004 per day increase is about max.....I like to do a 2x per day rise in salinity of about .002 each time...NEVER rush comming UP with salinity - about.005 per day MAX.....anything faster CAN result in sudden fish death due to osmotic shock!
all the fish that were in hypo in the 20g + an idol in the 90g tank....This 90 tank has no liverock, but used too and has been running for several years, and is well established with a refugium to process waste.....without this "monitor" tank - I'd just have kept them where they were for duration of treatment.... 2 more weeks

On the 75g qtine tank which we're treating with copper and a litttle formalin, that contains 1 idol, 1 naso tang, 2 little hippo tangs, and 4 chromis - I had a possible ich comeback on Sunday, 2 days ago.......Both hippos showed slight signs of ich...tested the copper level, and was showing ~.3ppm - so we upped the copper to .4 ppm (cupramine) and again added some formalin.....will maintain the .4+ppm copper and treat with formalin for the next 3 weeks on the fish in this tank...all fish still eating - but an ich "return" means we pretty much start the clock all over from now - so at least 4 weeks from now.......I MAY be able to speed up the process slightly - but it'll require a total breakdown & stearlize of the tank....a 100% waterchange with same SG water, and of course, re-treating with copper/formalin to kill further "hatches"....but at this moment - I must figure the ich life-cycle survives one more round...
SO since I think I saw a couple ich "zits" on the hippo tangs 2 days ago - I have to assume at this point - the ICH life-cycle has NOT been broken.....and it's tottally possible I could have another "hatch" at any time from tomorrow to the end of the month (november)........so am keeping the cupramine at .4ppm (.5 is considered max with .6ppm being considerd very high - possible fish death.)
This is a perfect example of the difficulties of Qtining fishes......once you're 2-3-4 weeks into the ich/velvet exticntion process - - you have a new "hatch" or "comeback" and the calendar begins from the start.....so it'll be after thankgiving, assuming I keep the copper level UP at al times and watch for further outbreaks and assuming NONE - they should be OK the last week of Nov..
I do not like the dip thing - where you mix a very strong solution of copper or formalin or even freshwater - and "dip" / "bath" the fish in there for several minutes.......IME the dip only kills the VERY FEW parasites on the fishes surface/outside the gills...both the ich and velvet parasites burrow UNDER the fishes slime coat, and beneath the scales & under the skin to feed WELL beyond the reach of any dip......IMO a dip is only usefull in very severe parasitic outbreaks where the fish is likely going to die soon anyway...It's a stressfull proceedure and to be avoided by qtine early on and treating BEFORE it's a disaster.
In the beginning - BOTH Qtine tanks were set up WITHOUT a true "cycle" and existing, established filter units were used to "quick cycle" both tanks.... - some "cycle" and some "amquel plus" were addded everyother day for the first 2 weeks of both tanks lifespan, to help with ammonia breakdown....."cycle" and "amquel" are the only products that I'll use with either hypo or copper treatments - and mixing/adding any other medicine to a qtine tank is NOT advised. And even with both tanks running at kinda high bioloads - only a 50% dose of cycle and amquel were added. If time allows - it's ALWAYS best to cycle a bare qtine tank - just like you would a DT - and allow a month for the cycle to complete.....but in emergencies, like I simulated here - things can be accelerated, but expect your workload/water use/salt use to rise ALOT from thinking first and planning ahead...
The fish in the 75 Qtine (taken after lights out) so colors are way off - fish are asleep...just took the pic - and it's 2am.

There are 2 hippos in this picture - they are stacked up on each other...lol....and sleeping as fish do...
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
So for another update:
Things moving along great - the fish that were in the 20g treatment tank have been in the 90g (untreated) tank for over 2 weeks now and NEVER have I seen a sign of ick or issue. From the last update - we spent a full week bringing these fish that were exposed to "hypo" traetment for over a month out of hypo and back into normal SG levels....They (orange shoulder tang/1 clown/5 blue chromis) are all doin 100% in the untreated 90g tank. At this point - i'd move any/all of them into my 475 with little worry......I only put them in my 90 "monitor" tank for some weeks after qtine/treatment so I dont/cant qtine/treat all the fish in teh 475 if something bad were to happen.......BUT if I had a smaller DT - i'd have felt safe putting these fish into my main earlier....The 1st idol only joined the fish in the 90g cause the pair of them were fighting in only a 75g tank. but as of today all are AWESOME.
This complets the HYPO treatment of the original group of fish in the 20g tank that started this thread.
As far as the fish in the medication treated 75g qtine tank (2nd idol, 1 blonde naso, 2 little hippo tangs, and 3 chromis) -
Been doing 10% waterchanges every 3-4 days...since they eat GREAT - i just vacuum up poops....having started this tank with LIVE bio-media (filters) this tank was easier to keep in check than the 20 g was....again I used copper (cupramine .3-.4ppm) and a little formalin (.025ppm) to handle the ich & worms these fishes showed up with. I also used just a touch of "cycle" and about 1/2 traetment of "amquel' for the first couple weeks - but today - this copper/formalin TREATED qtine tank requires NO addditional meds/chemicals to keep ammonia levels in check.
So far - the fish are clear of parasites - and assuming they are all still good - will move them this weekend into the 90g (untreated) to join the other fishes and monitor them all till delivery in 3 weeks to a local (kinda) board member.
once again it's 1am - and the fishes lights are out - so forgive their off colors&hippos sleep on their sides:
The 2nd idol and blonde naso:

The yellow belly hippo asleep in a 4" PVC elbow:

The naso agian - and the 2nd hippo asleep under the coffee cup handle

and the 3 chromis are in there somewhere...lol
 
deejeff442

deejeff442

Active Member
ken has been working a new job alot lately,last i talked to him all the fish were doing great.i am supposed to pick up my 3 tangs from him anytime.but i might wait another week or two to get a handle on my algae problem.
 
tangs rule

tangs rule

Active Member
Jeez - things got busy and this thread slipped off the burner - - -but to complete it:
maintained the 10% waterchanges every 3-4 days...just vacuum up poops and replace the water with new 1.022....ALSO maintained copper levels (cupramine .3-.4ppm) and a little formalin (.025ppm) to handle the ich & worms these fishes showed up with. SInce there was a probable "return" of ich in about week 3 - the fish remained in treated water in the 75 until about 2 weeks ago - when no more meds were added during the regular waterchanges.....since several waterchanges have been done since stopping meds, and todays w/c was 25% - there are virtually no more meds in the tank - and the fish are great!
feeding is 2x daily - marine cusine, mysis, and purple nori......some days it;s the green toasted nori - but primarily the purple dried type..All these fish successfully passed qtine and are ready for delivery/insertion to DT tanks...
SO the chromis that were in the 75 were moved into the 475 about 10 days ago. The first moorish idol that was in qtine in this tank has been in the 475 for a month and is doin AWESOME....(what a stunning fish)....the single ocelleris clown that was in this batch is also in the 475 and has paired with a larger female....
The fish that remain in this 75g qtine tank are the 2nd Idol, naso, orange shoulder tang, and 2 blue tangs.....Deejeff 442 is picking up everything but the idol and small hippo this saturday - and the other 2 will join the gang in the 475 on new years day.
pics as of tonight, lights off - so their colors are odd/and the hippos are on their side/in cups:
the naso (jeffs) and 2nd idol (for sale OR mine)

the yellow belly hippo (jeffs)

between the cups in the baby hippo on his side asleep:

the orange shoulder tang (jeffs)

This concludes the 2nd batch of qtine methods that I like to use. Please don;t hesitate to PM me with questions or comments. Remember to research RESEARCH what qtine methods work best for your new desired fish and maintain as stable an environment for them during process....and most imporntantly - offer MANY various food types - espically early on to determine what your fish will eat - then make sure it eats daily..... a fish that quits/won't eat will never survive qtine, and is a lost cause. also qtine everything wet that you add to your DT.
thanks for reading,
tangs rule
 
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