New punctato butterfly breathing rapidly

dmschiff

dmschiff

Member
Just received a a flame angel, Pajama cardinal and a Punctato Butterfly, yesterday and placed them in QT. Drip aclimated them for about 3 hours
The flame angel and PJ cardinal seem fine. About 2 hours after the Punctato was added he started to lie on his side off and on. That didn't concern me as much as his rapid breathing. (Honestly not sure if he was breathing rapidly during acclimation or not...difficult to see) He seems to upright himself a little more when the lights are off, but the rapid breathing remains. Doesn't appear to be picked on by tank mates.
This morning he was swimming a little, but when I turned the light on he started turning on his side again, so I turned the ight off again.
This is my first Punctato. Are they always a bright yellow like the sample picture on this site? When he arrived he seemed much paler that the pictures I've seen. I assumed he just did that due to shipping or the nocturnal
coloration change that my hippo displays.
These were my water parpameters this morning
10 gal QT set up yesterday with 75% water from my 120 DT and 25% water mixed 3 days ago. One small piece LR, Penguin biowheel 100 new.
nitrates 10
ammonia-0
temp 76-78
PH 7.6-7.8
Once I realized that my constant temp heater wasn't correct this morning I've adjusted things. Also, since I've kept the lights off, I boosted th PH a little
Todays parameters
nitrates 10
ammonia 0
temp 78-80
PH 7.8 - 8.0
Just checked on him and he seems a little more lively, (swimming around a bit)but still breathing rapidly and paler than pictures that I've seen.
Any ideas whats wrong, either with the fish or my QT. Any suggestions?
Any help is most appreciated.
Oh, forgot to mention that when the shipment came yesterday the box was wet and when opened noticed that the styrofoam box was cracked...looked as though box was dropped. I believe the water came from the bag that held 2 pincushion urchins. My point is I think the punctato's bag was OK, but I assume they all received a drop.
Sorry for the long post, just wanted to incluce any possibilities.
Thanks!
 
dmschiff

dmschiff

Member
No. They seem pinkish red, just moving a hundred miles an hour. He has been upright most of the day now.
I'm really not sure if his color is normal or not. He is more yellow toward the dorsal area, but fairly white near the belly. Is this mnormal? I will try to get a picture and post it.
I think I see about 3 super small orange dots on his side. They may in his natural coloring or may be something attached to him. I really can't say. Are there any parasites that meet this description?
I'm sure it is too small to show up on a photo.
Any help is apppreciated.
Thanks!
 
dmschiff

dmschiff

Member
They really don't look sore. Almost as if they could be wiped off, but maybe even a light speck of color.
I'm having 2nd doubts now and wondering if it is ammonia. All day the flame angel and PJ cardinal have been fine, then about 7:00 this evening all of the sudden the flame angel was on his side and breathing fast. He has perked up but still breathing fast. Uggggh, I'm really ready to give up. The PJ cardinal seems fine. However, I did notice him kind of shake a few times, sort of reminded me of my clown when he does the shaky dance to his reflection. Is this normal for a Pajama cardinal?
I tested ammonia again, I think it's 0, but hubby thinks it's between .25 and .50. (One of us must be color blind.)So, I break out the amquel and dose just incase. I know I need to have adequate oxygen in the water to use amquel. The filter I'm using has a 10x per hour turn over rate. Is this enough?
I waited about 1 1/2 hours and tested again. It definitely looks like 0 to me. Will I get a true reading now that I've used amquel?
I'm scared to go to bed incase the butterfly croaks. I don't want him to, but I especially don't want it to cause an ammonia spike either.
One more question> IF the ammonia does increase and I decide to to a water change, should I use the new water I have mixed or should I use water from my DT since it would provide more good bacteria?
If you've made this far, thanks for your patience and sny help is appreciated.
 
paxrom

paxrom

Member
Do a big water change then take another piece of LR from your DT tank and put it in your QT. Your description seems to indicate ammonia poisoning. Post your test result for nitrite (not nitrate).
 
sepulatian

sepulatian

Moderator
Butterflies will act oddly. The fact that your flame angel is on it's side has me concerned. They are very hardy fish. Do you have a power head in there? The PH was low and had to be adjusted, how did you do that? Did you raise it a little at a time or just add buffer right to the tank?
10 gal QT set up yesterday with 75% water from my 120 DT and 25% water mixed 3 days ago. One small piece LR, Penguin biowheel 100 new.
A ten gallon is awfully small for the three of them. You do know that water from the display does NOT cycle a tank right? Add another piece of live rock. I am concerned with flow as well. How often are you testing? How old is your test kit? What kind is it? That sized tank with three fish will foul mighty darn quick. Especially since it wasn't cycled first.
 
dmschiff

dmschiff

Member
Sep,
I don't know where to begin. Obviously I did something majorly wrong and I feel like dirt right now. I honestly thought I was doing things right. Can you help me please! Here it goes...
I honestly thought that if you start the QT with the majority of water from a cycled tank it was OK. I read and read and read. Doesn't the QT info on this site say you can even start a emergency QT with new mixed water if you maintain it daily? Yes, I'm sorry , but I honestly thought it was considered cycled when using mostly water from a well established tank. It came from my 120 with 120 # lr, 30-40 gal sump/fuge that has been running over a year.
AS I said before, The butterfly started acting strange about 3 hours after he was placed in the QT- about 7 hours after he arrived. Ammonia tested 0 so I let it go for the night.
Yesterday morning the butterfly was still the same so then I decided to add the PH buffer. At this time the flame angel and the PJ cardinal seemed fine.
Yes, I added the PH buffer straight to the tank as I thought the directions said, but decided on my own that it didn't make sense to add it all at once so through out the day I add a little at a time and still only gave it half of a dose.
After I added the ph buffer, the butterfly perked up and at least remained upright, even swam around a little, but continued rapid breathing. The other 2 fish still seemed fine.
My ammonia test kit is about a year old or less. I honestly think it is fine.
I tested for ammonia at least 3 times yesterday due to my paranoia of the small QT. It was 0 each time. I let them alone for about 2 hours and then the flame is on his side breathing rapidly. Tested ammonia again = .25 so I added amquel.
By 9 PM theThe flame angel perked up but continued rapid breathing, but the butter fly is back on his side. The butterfly didn't make it to midnight. When I pulled him out, the left side behind his gills had an orange/red spot that looked like a sore. I noticed 3 tiny tiny spots there earlier, definitely not this large. AS thought they joined.
It's 9 am and I think the angel is gone too. Cardinal seems unaffected. I forgot to mention that the cardinal was the only one that ate through any of this.
What have I done wrong? I just added another piece of LR and a powerhead too.
Should I do a water change, if so, should I use the mixed water I have ready or should I use more water from my DT to add to the bio filter?
I know this must be frustrating for you. Please know that I didn't mean to be careless. I'm embarrassed to ask for your help, but I'm asking! Please!!!!
 
dmschiff

dmschiff

Member
Ok, I did a 30% water change, but used water from my DT which has 0 ammonia. My reasoning is that it should boost the bio filter. IS this correct? I believe I read this in Beth's posts somewhere.
Can someone, ANYONE, please explain to me how the fish are going through ammonia poisoning less than 3 hours after i placed them into my QT? That is less time thank it took me to acclimate them. I'm sure the container that I used to acclimate them in wasn't CYCLED.
The PJ cardinal seems fine (although I don't trust my judgement of fine anymore). He's eating and moving around.
new tests
nitrite 0
nitrate 10-20
ph 7.8-8.0
ammonia 0
 
paxrom

paxrom

Member
water from DT does have bacteria but it will not be enough to establish bio-filtration. These bacteria grows and work on surfaces. Adding water from DT is like seeding your tank with bacteria for cycling, but adding enough live rock from DT will establish INSTANT filtration.
Red gills are indicative of ammonia poisoning. Brown gills are of nitrite poisoning.
10gal tank is way too small to QT 3 fishes that size. Consider 20gal/per 3 inch of fish max.
Fish does suffer from ammonia poison while acclimating. That is why I oppose acclimating any fish for longer than 1 hrs. The toxic effect from the long acclimation does add up.
There's a reason why fish doesn't suffer from ammonia (for a while) while in shipping bag, but that's another story.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top