New to this, looking for info

[beth]

I simply do not understand why it would be slow. Afterall the macro algae in immediately balancing out and stabilizing the system and represents more effective conditioning than live rock.

Macro algae is plant-life, and limited at that. Yes, it is good as a filtering source but it does not provide organism biodiversity. Its like living in a desert (a fist tank with dead rock and dry sand) and you throw in macros. Yea, your have bit of an oasis but the oasis is not and never will be a rain forest. Live sand and rock is the foundation for that rain forest (reef) with the bio-diversity of living creatures (more than just plant live). Those living creatures is what establishes a reef environment. If you go with the dry option, then you will still work at getting those creatures in your tank.

 

[2quills]

My chaeto is like the amazon of macro algae. Wouldn't be surprised if I found the cure for cancer in there somewhere.

 

[beth]

My chaeto is like the amazon of macro algae. Wouldn't be surprised if I found the cure for cancer in there somewhere.

Yep, chaeto is a great safe haven and nursery for marine mico organisms....however, the organisms have to be in the tank to begin with. They aren't produced by cheato.

 

[2quills]

Yep, chaeto is a great safe haven and nursery for marine mico organisms....however, the organisms have to be in the tank to begin with. They aren't produced by cheato.

We could technically say the same for rock. Live rock is only as good as how well it's been handled from the collection or harvesting process to the time it reaches our tanks and on.

As far as a sterile tank is concerned I agree. I got my chaeto from one of my LFS's main systems so it came pre loaded with goodies. But it does still take time.

In terms of water conditioning and guarding against ammonia spikes it's all relative to size in relation to the load in the system.

But it is more affordable to start up with dry rock and sand. It be can seeded both ways and still requires patience IMO.

 

[beth]

We could technically say the same for rock. Live rock is only as good as how well it's been handled from the collection or harvesting process to the time it reaches our tanks and on.

And that would be where the aquarist's finding a reliable retailer comes into play. Even so, dead rock has no life, and live rock, any live rock, even bad live rock, should have life as opposed to no life.

But finding a good retailer is key to everything in this hobby, and not just buying rock.

I agree that the dry route is a lot cheaper, at least in the short term. You still have to "buy" something live to kick-start the dead rock and sand. It will be a long time before dead rock has the same population numbers and biological diversity potential as live rock does. But, if you have a small limited budget, then, yes, its a way to go. Just don't expect to have a thriving reef in 2 mos. Alternatively, you can get a combination of the two.

 

[2quills]

To touch upon the original question...Rock, sand, macro algae and a protein skimmer has been a winning combo for me.

Ofcorse all of that is not necessarily needed. If you're willing and able to stick with a sufficient water change regime you can get by with very little equipment.

Just depends on how dedicated one is to keeping things healthy.

A reverse osmosis filter is a extremely beneficial piece of equipment to have as well.

 

[beth]

I'd say less equipment is better. Live rock and live sand, macros, and even the organisms themselves do the best job of keeping things stable and clean. Protein skimmer would be a wise purchase, however, and I would also say some powerheads. UVs, canisters, bio-ball/media filters, etc., no.

 

[jay0705]

You two have far more experience then me. Your last two comments really should be restated tho for the original poster. Equipment wise less is more. Honestly you could run a tank with nothing more then a heater and power head or 2. A skimmer is helpful maintenance wise. Other than that you don't need it.
This can't be under stated. Live rock is the life blood of your aquarium. How it becomes live in your tank is up to you. Once fully cured and mature a tank with ample live rock is basically its own bio cube per say. It can thrive on its own.
Filters, sumps, socks, ect are tools to help with sw tanks but are not needed to keep
To touch on the lfs as a good source of lr. This couldn't be more true. Iam very lucky to have one by me. They sell wet base rock. 3.99lb this stuff is loaded!!! Its better then most other places sell as live rock.
There actual lr 8.99 lb is crazy. Sponges, macro, all kinds of stuff growing on it.
Research and homework are your best friends

 

[2quills]

All depends on what your goals are. I've seen very few examples of what I would describe as nice tanks that are only utilizing rock, sand and flow alone.

For fish only and some inverts it doesn't take much. And one could set up a coral grow out tank with very little as well.

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't limit yourself too much. Bio diversity is a great goal to shoot for (everyone does).

Skimmers are helpful not just with maintenance but a great way of maintaining higher oxygen levels for less lethargic fish or in the event of a ammonia spike.

I personally haven't needed a heater in many years.

 

[jay0705]

Really?? Even in winter? Thats intresting. I agree with diversity. I have 2 filters, multiple power heads, even air stones in a few of my tanks. Its personal preference tho

 

[2quills]

Really?? Even in winter? Thats intresting.

Yeah I live in hell's kitchen. Aside from that the pumps, water movement and ambient house temps keeps things regulated pretty well in the cooler months.

 

[jay0705]

Ah nice. Given the choice i would prefer the house cool but the wife doesn't agree lol. Still in the winter my heaters are on more often then not

 

[beth]

Heaters just depends where you live. When I had tanks, I was living in the Keys, so no need for heater at all.

The thing with live rock is that the more diversity the better. For this its good practice to even get your live rock from different sources that are harvested in different areas. If you go with dry rock, then you still need to seed your rock (and struggle with very small populations attempting to survive). Seeding means you have to add micro organisms yourself, and not just throw in a few pieces of live rock...that is if you want the best set up. You also should allow that tank to settle in for a few mos without predators (fish, inverts). My last tank, I cultivated the live rock and sandbed for 2 mos before adding anything else. It was literally crawling with organisms by the time I started adding inverts and fish. I had base rock in the sandbed, live rock, and all live sand (from different sources).

Now I had a DSB so it was essential to cultivate that sand bed and I was always doing that. It wasn't a chore for me, I really liked that aspect.

 

[quickspit]

as for ATS

thoughts on this?

 

[geridoc]

I have used algae scrubbers for years, and I find that they do exactly what they claim. There are many kinds of units, ranging from inexpensive diy to expensive downflow, but they all work. Tyne only downside - if I dont harvest the macroalgae weekly it quickly overgrows.

 

[Jesterrace]

I am wanting to get started with a saltwater tank. I have picked up a 40g tank and need to know what I need to have to get it up and running. I have been looking into live rock, pumps to create waterflow/movement & rock for the base.

What is recommended for heat, filtration and what not....

As I am new please have patience with my lack of knowledge. Any info will be helpful!

Truth be told the list is quite long to get fish, inverts and corals in your tank. You will need the following:

1) Sand of some form (live sand is best for filtration). For your size of tank a single 40lb bag should cover it, but if you want fish that burrow you may need more.
2) Live Rock or dry rock/live rock mix. This is actually the primary filter in almost all saltwater tanks. Figure 40lbs of live rock minimum for your setup (1-1.5lbs of live rock per gallon of tank is the recommended amount)
3) 150-200 watt tank heater that specifically states it is good marine tanks. Always remember if a piece of equipment doesn't state that it is meant for marine setups, then assume it isn't.
4) Some type of seed bacteria to start the live rock cycling process
5)A good cover with good LED lights (keep in mind that some fish will jump right out of your tank without a cover).
6) For filtration for that size of tank, HOB (Hang On Back) filters would be the most cost effective. For Saltwater Tanks Canister filters often end up being expensive hassles. You could do a sump but that requires special setup of an extra 10 gallon or larger fish tank which may not be practical if space, etc. is a concern. A Fluval 75 or 110 gallon HOB filter would be a good choice for your size of tank as they give you the option to add different media bags that can be beneficial to your tank. That said outside of the stock carbon filter bags DO NOT USE ANY OTHER STOCK MEDIA BAGS THAT COME WITH THE FILTER AS THEY ARE DESIGNED FOR FRESHWATER!!!!!!!!!
7) A powerhead to simulate ocean current flow. The Hydor Koralia are probably the best bang for buck. If you want to put corals in your tank you will need a higher flow model. I have a 36 gallon bowfront and run the 3rd gen model that puts out 1950gph and it provides plenty of flow to my whole tank.
8) A Protein Skimmer. Eshoppes, Reef Octopus and others all make hang on back models that will do the job perfectly for your tank. This removes excess protein waste from the water in your tank and helps keep your water changes down and can promote good algae growth in your tank. I didn't realize how much left over crud was in my tank until I started running my Eshoppes HTK-75.
9) A Digital Thermometer to make sure your tank heater and tank water is maintained at the proper temp
10) You will either need an RO or RODI water purification system or you will need to buy RO/RODI water or pre-mix RO/RODI saltwater from your local LFS. It's not like freshwater where you can simply wait for the chlorine to evaporate from tap water and you are good to go. There are many other nasty chemicals in tap water that saltwater fish simply can't handle.
11) Some Home Depot 5 gallon buckets, you will need them for doing water changes at some point
12) A solid water testing kit (ie Red Sea) to do water quality tests (ie Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia, etc.)
13) A basic drainage hose with siphon pump
14) A Refractometer to test the level of salinity in your saltwater. For corals you generally want your salinity a bit higher. Around 1.025 to make both the corals and fish happy.

Have I scared you away yet? The hardest part of saltwater tanks is having the patience for the water cycle. You need to be prepared to basically leave your tank alone for 30-60 days and not have anything but live rock, live sand and water running in your tank. Remember that even if your Ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites all show 0 on your tests that the cycle isn't over until your brown algae bloom comes in (that is the point at which you can add snails and hermit crabs to help keep the tank clean). You also DO NOT change the water until the bloom comes AND goes.

 

[quickspit]

Jesterrace, that was VERY helpful. And no not scared off yet LOL So going with the Protein Skimmer, do you think that is better than Algae Turf Scrubber?

Also, are you opposed to doing live sand & dry rock? Again I am ok with taking time if that is the difference.

 

[Jesterrace]

Honestly, I have no experience with an algae turf scrubber. I am pretty new to the hobby myself (started my current 36 gallon fish tank in February and it is my first tank of any kind). As I understand it though the Protein Skimmer generally removes wastes at an earlier stage of the process. Both are beneficial and if you can afford it, it probably wouldn't hurt to do both. As for live sand and dry rock, it would definitely be cheaper but I would be prepared to go months before even being able to add snails and crabs. Obviously you have some time to think about it before making a decision, but given your tank and mine are right in the same ballpark you might want to think about what sort of fish, crabs, shrimp, etc. you are wanting for your tank. Every bit as important as setting up your tank and letting it cycle with the right equipment is doing your best to match up the demeanor of your fish, crabs, shrimp, etc. In Saltwater there are no absolutes as individual fish can behave differently, but you can eliminate a lot of hassle and frustration by checking out on sites like Live Aquaria (as well as personal experiences from people here) as to what fish are Peaceful, Semi-Aggressive and Aggressive. This becomes compounded in tanks of less than 50 gallons because you have less space and aggressive behaviors among fish are more likely to be an issue. For me, I made an serious effort to keep all of my fish of a peaceful demeanor. My only slip up was adding a Dwarf Angel (Flame Angel) and sure enough it began bullying the crap out of my Purple Firefish and even took a little nip out of my Scissortail Dartfish and began nipping at my corals. The fish is listed as semi-aggressive on most sites. Fortunately I was able to trap and remove it (but this isn't always as easy as it sounds). There are advantages and disadvantages to the various demeanors of fish though. Peaceful Fish tend to get along well with their tank mates but will hide at the drop of a hat and can disappear for a couple of hours before showing their faces again, even when nothing aggressive is in the tank. Most of them also don't have the serious "WOW Factor" for coloration and visible activity. Semi-Aggressive and Aggressive Fish have a tendency to be brightly colored and very visible and active in the tank (The Flame Angel definitely was), but they can literally bully another fish to death and there is a possibility that two aggressive or semi-aggressive fish will behave like a couple of male beta fish and kill each other. Obviously it's your choice which route you go, but definitely keep it in mind as you are looking at fish and figuring out what sort of collection you want to put together.

My current config is:

1 Scissortail Dartfish
1 Purple Firefish
1 Diamond Watchman Goby
1 Green Mandarin Fish (I don't recommend adding a Mandarin until you have a very well established tank, I jumped the gun and it's only still alive because it started eating frozen mysis shrimp)
I will be adding a Clown Fairy Wrasse aka Red Headed Salon Fairy Wrasse to my tank in a couple of days and I will see how it goes.

 

[jay0705]

Honestly, I have no experience with an algae turf scrubber. I am pretty new to the hobby myself (started my current 36 gallon fish tank in February and it is my first tank of any kind). As I understand it though the Protein Skimmer generally removes wastes at an earlier stage of the process. Both are beneficial and if you can afford it, it probably wouldn't hurt to do both. As for live sand and dry rock, it would definitely be cheaper but I would be prepared to go months before even being able to add snails and crabs. Obviously you have some time to think about it before making a decision, but given your tank and mine are right in the same ballpark you might want to think about what sort of fish, crabs, shrimp, etc. you are wanting for your tank. Every bit as important as setting up your tank and letting it cycle with the right equipment is doing your best to match up the demeanor of your fish, crabs, shrimp, etc. In Saltwater there are no absolutes as individual fish can behave differently, but you can eliminate a lot of hassle and frustration by checking out on sites like Live Aquaria (as well as personal experiences from people here) as to what fish are Peaceful, Semi-Aggressive and Aggressive. This becomes compounded in tanks of less than 50 gallons because you have less space and aggressive behaviors among fish are more likely to be an issue. For me, I made an serious effort to keep all of my fish of a peaceful demeanor. My only slip up was adding a Dwarf Angel (Flame Angel) and sure enough it began bullying the crap out of my Purple Firefish and even took a little nip out of my Scissortail Dartfish and began nipping at my corals. The fish is listed as semi-aggressive on most sites. Fortunately I was able to trap and remove it (but this isn't always as easy as it sounds). There are advantages and disadvantages to the various demeanors of fish though. Peaceful Fish tend to get along well with their tank mates but will hide at the drop of a hat and can disappear for a couple of hours before showing their faces again, even when nothing aggressive is in the tank. Most of them also don't have the serious "WOW Factor" for coloration and visible activity. Semi-Aggressive and Aggressive Fish have a tendency to be brightly colored and very visible and active in the tank (The Flame Angel definitely was), but they can literally bully another fish to death and there is a possibility that two aggressive or semi-aggressive fish will behave like a couple of male beta fish and kill each other. Obviously it's your choice which route you go, but definitely keep it in mind as you are looking at fish and figuring out what sort of collection you want to put together.

My current config is:

1 Scissortail Dartfish
1 Purple Firefish
1 Diamond Watchman Goby
1 Green Mandarin Fish (I don't recommend adding a Mandarin until you have a very well established tank, I jumped the gun and it's only still alive because it started eating frozen mysis shrimp)
I will be adding a Clown Fairy Wrasse aka Red Headed Salon Fairy Wrasse to my tank in a couple of days and I will see how it goes.

For being new its good to see you did your home work

 

[Jesterrace]

For being new its good to see you did your home work

Thanks, I spent 2-3 months researching prior to getting my tank and am continuing to research. That said I still screwed up early on (a very expensive one at that). I should've listened to my gut which told me that letting my wife use goo gone to get rid of some excess adhesive in the tank was a bad idea. It was and I lost 40lbs of live rock and sand to a small scale exxon valdez oil spill. The good news is that I hadn't added anything to the tank at that point and through a cycle of bleach water followed by a cycle of white vinegar saved the tank and all the equipment (minus the crappy stock tank heater that came with my tank kit). I did end up with another minor screw up after redoing the tank I added 5 snails and 5 crabs pre-maturely and the tank had not finished cycling. I ended up losing 3 of the crabs, but kept all my snails and the cycle manged to finish despite me doing pre-mature water changes. Hence the reason why I put what I did in the post above about the cycle not being done until the brown algae bloom comes and goes and about the water changes since I learned that the hard way. As well as using nothing but white vinegar, salt with a little water to clean the inside of the tank initially when you first get the tank. One of the most frustrating things about saltwater aquariums is that you have to ask questions every step of the way and you literally have to think to ask first as it is virtually impossible for anyone to remember every little nuance required for saltwater setups unless they are asked. I probably annoyed the crap out of my local LFS during the process, but as painful and expensive as my mistakes were I still wouldn't have a functional tank and I probably would be a couple thousand in the hole without them and sites like this one.