Newbie Looking For Pointers

[broomer5]

Whether one skims or does not - is no guarentee of success.
Lots of variables come into play, and maintenance is crucial.
In my opinion - our equipment is half of the equation - our habits and choices on what we place in the tank is the other half.
My guess - sure you can run a beautiful reef tank without a protein skimmer.
See how things go doing it the way you want to - is my belief.
Then if you have to make changes - that's cool.
You can always add a skimmer - right :yes:

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by druluv
broomer5
Yes indeed, I'm not knocking berlin style tanks. My journey is to try replicate the natural reefs we see when we scuba or
snorkel. Not just to have a show piece coral but to have the whole chain that makes show piece beautiful. Basically a snap shot of the ocean.
Druluv: I agree with what you are tring to do and your methods for doing it. By establishing plant life in a refug as the very first thing I predict you will not only be successful, but have show corals and extremely easy maintenance as well. After all, the ocean containes plant life as well.
I further warn you that if you stray from this path you will be less than happy with the results. By attempting to remove any possible bad thing through a skimmer for instance, your system will be less able to handle unforeseen stressor that arise.
press on. And put the skimmer money to better use.

 

[broomer5]

I'm sure druluv appreciates the warning coming from someone that has zero experience with a protein skimmer
And what the heck is an unforseen stresser :notsure:

 

[beaslbob]

Originally posted by broomer5
I'm sure druluv appreciates the warning coming from someone that has zero experience with a protein skimmer
And what the heck is an unforseen stresser :notsure:
a misspelled unforeseen stressor.

 

[thomas712]

Originally posted by beaslbob
By establishing plant life in a refug as the very first thing I predict you will not only be successful, but have show corals and extremely easy maintenance as well.
I further warn you that if you stray from this path you will be less than happy with the results. By attempting to remove any possible bad thing through a skimmer for instance, your system will be less able to handle unforeseen stressor that arise.

A warning to all newbie's.
Advice like this is not what you want to listen to. Beaslbob's methods, could if used wisely be put to some use. however he is so narrow minded that nothing else exists for him other than plant life an aquarium.
By establishing plant life in a refug as the very first thing I predict you will not only be successful, but have show corals and extremely easy maintenance as well.
Well here is what beslebob says is his tank. But he has only produced this one image of it. He is afraid to update it. Beaslebob insists on plant life, fine as far as that goes. But he also insists on feeding it tap water so the plants have something to grow off of, nitrates and phosphates and any number of metals in the tap water. And he insists that this is the way to go.
Does anyone see any show corals?
Does the tank look like it is in serious need of maitenance?
Does anyone want their tank to look like this?
Take a good look at this tank, do you want your hard work to look like this?

 

[druluv]

One of the problems I foresee is detritus. That is why I didn't use as much rock, and left lots of space around the rock for the
clean crew to take care of. I also know I'm taking chance with the deep sand bed but I like gobies that like to burrow into the
sand.
excerpt:
But this is what don't want to happen:
Opening Up Our Closed Reef Aquariums
by Chris Cefola - Freshwater and Marine Aquarium, December 2001
The first attempt to solve this problem was to use powerful equipment such as large Protein Skimmers, UV Sterilization,
Ozone, Activated Carbon, and Denitrators. AU this equipment did was sterilize our aquariums to the point where we had to
now rebalance the nutrients lost. This task was accomplished by placing additives and food in the aquarium. It became
increasingly difficult to correctly dose the now sterilized water with the proper amount of additives, therefore, causing more
imbalances in the "closed system." To solve this new problem, many people, myself included, started looking into open system
natural reefs for an answer. Coral reefs are not self-sustaining; they need the ocean and shoreline around them to exist.
This is the proper why to set of your fuge.
This method is the closest we have come to emulating an open system reef. The first part of this system is a submerged
bio-ball chamber that not only breaks up solid waste but also acts as a plankton rearing area. The second chamber contains a
fine silt mud and Caulerpa taxifolia algae. Caulerpa algae in a reef aquarium have many benefits, such as its ability to absorb
waste products and its use as a food. It also produces a waste product called Gelvin. As a trace element, Gelvin may be
beneficial for our reef aquariums but in most cases the concentration seems to build up to toxic levels. Mr. Leng Sy solves this
problem by using a twenty-four hour light source, and a nutrient rich mud for the Caulerpa to feed from. This Caulerpa/mud
combination is a true self-regulating system. That is to say, as we add more animals to the system, nutrient balance is restored
by increased growth of the Caulerpa, alga and plankton. The third and final chamber contains more bio-balls to prevent the
Caulerpa from entering the pump.

 

[druluv]

Why Does It Work?
by Mike Paletta - SeaScope, Summer 2000
The results of this system to date appear much better than what I have seen with other refugia-based systems when used on a closed system and with less maintenance.
The “mud” which Leng has developed has high levels of iron and iodine, and just about every trace element found in the sea. The iron and iodine may help in preventing the Caulerpa from crashing. It may also work to remove the organics released by the Caulerpa before they reach the main tank. The slow leaching of iron and iodine as well as other trace elements into the water from the mud is also probably more beneficial than the typical bolus dosing of these elements, which most hobbyists do.
Whatever the effect, this system would not work without the presence of the “mud”. This was attempted by Aquarium Systems several years ago. A system was set up similar to the Ecosystem method where crushed coral was used as the substrate instead of “mud”. After several months, the system crashed from an uncontrollable algae bloom.
In a direct comparison with a similarly set-up Berlin Tank, Tom Frakes of Aquarium Systems found that the Ecosystem tank was at least as good as a Berlin tank on most parameters, and actually better on several other such as coral mortality.

 

[nm reef]

Sorry to hitchhike your thread...very interesting by the way....very good discussion...but I must interject a question:
BB_BS...if you were politely requested to do so...would you just leave? I'm serious.....myself and numerous other members wonder why you are here. Its obvious you have no interest in the hobby other than your shallow views...your sole purpose appears to be drawing attention to yourself and participating in the arguments you flame....so ...seriously...if requested to do so would you just leave? I know of several forums related to this hobby where you could irrate and antagonise some very experienced and high tech hobbyists....email me for a few references about sites where you could really be a pain in the arse. That should make you happy because I've come to believe that is your only interest!!!!!
nmreef@cox(nospam).net
...of course you'll need to grow a bunch of algaes and feed them massive amounts of ammonia and phosphates and nitrites and nitrates and a bunch of copper so they can effectively remove the (nospam) part of the address.

 

[druluv]

Here is one of my corals in my 60 gallon Hex. Most of my coral and fish died during the Black Out last year. I never replaced them but this one survived.

 

[druluv]

i think the double bioball system is gonna contradict that
The bio-balls are not set up like the ones in a wet dry. The force that the water come down with usually keeps the balls pretty clean. In addition, It only takes about 1/4 gallon of bio balls to do the trick.
Secondly, Caulerpa doesn't grow that fast that I need a dump truck every week to haul it out.
And again Caulerpa does not go asexually when there is 24/7 of light.
Since photosynthesis occurs during the lighting photoperiod, 24/7 refugium lighting adds stability to the water chemistry.
Also, caulerpa hastens the oxidation of catabolites.

 

[beaslbob]

yep your going to have an awesome system.
I totally agree that stripping everything out of the system (ro/di, skimmers and so on) creates systems that simply can not handle the bumps in the night and require constant tinkering to keep running.
According to some planted marine tank posts and withmy experience with FW planted, you do get a mulm buildup on the substrait without mechanical filtering. But the mulm is inert and provides a place for pods as well. It can be removed every few months just for looks. With mechanical filtering the mulm is much reduced.
I use tap water to get the caulpera flourshing. But whether from tap or mud the idea of providing nutrients to keep the plant life flourshing is absolutely sound. then the plants are able to quickly react to changes in tank conditions. All without tinkering by the operator. and by not interfering with that process with skimmers the system is extremely stable. Besided no skimmer to fail.
In my 55g I do have a sump filter box. It contains lave rock and crushed oyster shells. Since I added the shells calcium has gone from 250-300 to over 400. By using calcium carbonate based substraits and rocks (mine were silica based) you probably will have no problems with calcium.
again press on.

 

[druluv]

i assume "lagoonal" is the goal of your next tank.
I don't know what you mean by Lagoonal. I guess we will see. I going put my research on the line and see it theory meets
practicality. I'll be Honest with you guess. If something dies or if my tank crashes I'll let you know. But pls give me my props
if I succeed.
ps
Yes I do believe in RO/DI water.:notsure: I'm not that crazy

 

[druluv]

sometimes we can't be jack of all filtrations but a master of one And that is my goal.

 

[druluv]

If I offered you crap and purple slim sandwich :scared: , you would tell me to go to hell, but on the flip side, if I said
it was peanut butter and grape jelly you would probably oblige.
That my skimmer analogy.
I was going to put a rinky dink skimmer on but now my quest is to prove that a more natural approach can work beautifully
on a tank. Let's all open our systems up.

 

[beaslbob]

druluv:
Welcome to the lagoonal posts. Don't worry.
And thanks for the research here. I think you have done much more than simply ask 100 hobbiest and take the 99% as being the only way to do things.
and now you have to face the reef herd.
My botom line is: Your research has revealed what my experience has. There is simply no replacement for balancing out the ecosystem with plant life. Everything else is just to help that process.

 

[dburr]

I olny have a couple comments.
I have been skimmerless for 2+ years. Sinse switching to SPS 6 months ago I have noticed that my little skimmer I put on 2 months ago have colored up my SPS's. That is the only thing I changed. I didn't have to, they were growing great. But, no colores.
My other comment is about the live rock. How much for your tank are you putting in? LR helps alot in the natural filtration department.
Dan

 

[fishking]

Originally posted by broomer5
I'm sure druluv appreciates the warning coming from someone that has zero experience with a protein skimmer
And what the heck is an unforseen stresser :notsure:

come on y do u have to pick on bob, didnt someone post a thread saying if u dont like wut bob says just ignore it

 

[dburr]

Why do you pick on broomer?

 

[reefer44]

heres my 50 cents
about setting up the whole miniecosystem withought using skimming and stufff............as you have noticed from bb_bs tank this is a very dificult task to do and have a wonderful system
it is true you can set up many soft corals like finger leathers and such but as far as keeping show specimens of sps without RO/DI and protien skimmers..good luck
and like kip said if you want a "natural setup" then put a protien skimmer on because that is what the beach is (he already said this but you didn't seem to believe him)
also how can you say a protien skimmer is so bad and the only way to go is with just macro algea...have you every even tried a protien skimmer and seen the exelent results
it is true that macros remove a lot of nutrients and stuff but you have to remember that every reef in nature as acres and acres of plants serounding them to export nutriets you only have a small fuge...therefore aquarist need help with things such as mechanical filteration and protien skimmers
i believe one should incoperate different techneques (however spelled) and find what does best for there aquarium and not be so narrow minded
finally bb_bs why are you still posting your methods?....we have all seen your tank and the lack of sucess you have had
Brad