Nitrate Hell.... How to Prevent

[prime311]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2649629
Nitrate removal via bacteria and algae harvesting are two completely different things

They're 2 different methods of doing the same thing, consuming Nitrate. Thats what i meant. No need to take it so literal, to a casual observer they are doing the same thing. I was just trying to explain it in a way so as to be easily understood.

 

[windlasher]

OK, Long story short…
Went to LFS, told them I wanted a 90 Gal, with the works. My specific instructions were that I wanted to

[hr]
with it as little as possible. Note that at NO time did I say skimp on the specifics, nor did I limit the funds in any way.
What they delivered and set up was a 90 with crushed coral, a WET/DRY for a 75 Gal, heater, pump, etc although I did not realize this at first, this was going to be my worst nightmare. All of the stuff they provided was low quality and again, I did not know this at the time. I also believe that they probably sold me used stuff.
About two weeks ago the pump failed and started working at about ¼ capacity. i.e. very little to no filtration going on and I did not notice this because, really, why would you? It only took a few days for the tank to crash.
SO, I have been fighting the battle of Ammonia and Nitrates for the past two weeks, winning some, losing some, yada yada. TO date I have lost about 1K in fish and corals.
SO back to my original question.
I already know that a refugium is the way to go and I am in the process of building one as I have just ordered a 220 gallon tank.
I also understand that this should provide adequate filtration assuming the refugium is large enough.
I am putting a 30 Gal Sump/refugium on my 90 and a 75 gallon Sump/ refugium on the 220. Complete with big ass skimmers, dual pumps in case one fails, chiller, etc.
So what I want to know is will any of those products help to prevent this from happening again, provide benefits, etc. I am trying to do my homework on my own this time rather than trust my LFS and you guys seem to really know your stuff.
If you assume money is not an issue, how close can I come to bullet proofing the new setups and will any of those products help me out.
I also wont be going back to them and am seriously considering litigation. I realize that this is probably frowned upon, but they held themselves up as experts, and sold me crap, more than likely used crap. As I have 3 lawyers and a district court judge in the family, maybe if i pound on them they wont do it to the next person.
Thanks in advance.

 

[windlasher]

Originally Posted by Beth
http:///forum/post/2649255
If you set up your tank appropriately, you should not really experience a problem. How is your tank set up: filters, live rock, live sand, RO water, skimmer, etc? You have to address the issue from the angle of tank set up, rather than reactionary by trying to "get rid" of it. The goal should be that your tank is set up in such a way that nitrates are exported naturally from your system and are not a problem.
See my response below. There is a reason and I figured it out too late.

 

[afboundguy]

crushed coral is known to be a nitrate factory compared to sand beds. Left over food and waste gets trapped in the crushed corals and leads to high nitrates. I would def ditch the CC and go with a sand bed. Research what a deap sand bed does. I have about 5" of sand in mine and like the DSB.
Also the wet/dry filters with bioballs have been becoming less used because of their potential to become nitrate factories as well.
I also noticed that you didn't say you had a skimmer on your tank but intent to put "a big ass one" on it. That will help. After seeing how much junk a skimmer pulls out you will never want a tank without one.
Also what is your water change schedule? Idealy you should aim at about %10 a week especially if you have a nitrate problem.

 

[florida joe]

I think the phrase nitrate factory may confuse some people CC does not produce nitrates

 

[prime311]

If money isn't an object, then you're best bet is to hire someone to do maintenance on your tank every 2 weeks. Preferably someone that you know is well versed on fish tanks and can make recommendations as to equipment. You could try to find someone on a local reef forum or craigs list that will just do the work for you ad hoc, someone you could pay hourly who isn't just trying to sell you stuff. As most of us learned, initial setup of the tank only gets you sdo far, once everything is running you will most likely need to do setup adjustments to get everything working they way you want it to. Even a fairly hands off system with automatic topoffs and great filtration still requires maintenance like cleaning your skimmer, pumps, powerheads, bioballs, and changing any filter bags if any. Unless you're doing regular chemical tests and dosing you need to continue doing water changes to replenish needed chemicals like magnesium, iodine, and calcium.

 

[windlasher]

I did about 10 - 15 % water changes per week.
There is a skimmer built into the WET/DRY, but like I said, the WET/DRY is under sized to begin with which is part of my frustration so I imagine the Skimmer is as well.
I don't mind doing the work, taking the tests etc. I don't want to hire anyone to manage my tanks. What I expected was an adequate system which I did not get. I have the API Master SW & The Mater Reef kit. I also own Master test kits from two other vendors and I alternated them to ensure I was getting consistent readings.
I worked in a LFS in Chicago when I was a teen, but things have changed so much, which is why I trusted them to help me get updated.
And all of this started when the pump failed over a long weekend which as I have said, i believe was probably under sized as well and there was no filtration going on for three or four days. Prior to that, the tests all came up aces.
I have hired the owner of a different LFS to help me plumb my new house which I will be moving into in about a month. BY the time I get done with that my system should be aces.
I'm just glad my wife is so understanding about my long nights, water changes and now substantial purchases of new pumps and all while I recover as well as plan for the new system in the new house.

 

[prime311]

A properly set up system with a good skimmer and a refugium of macroalgae can be run with 0 nitrates. So thats probably the answer you're looking for. If you're running a wet dry then you need to periodically clean the bioballs. Personally, I think thats more hassle then its worth and I'd rather just run plenty of live rock, a fuge, a kicka$$ skimmer, and maybe a filter sock on the overflow drain. People run with juswt this and have 0 nitrates so it isn't exactly unheard of. if you start to see a problem with nitrates, you can use sugar or some other method of keeping hem down until you find the source of the problem.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by KellenR
http:///forum/post/2649309
... With that said however all tanks with fish will accumulate a certain amount of nitrate. It's the end product of the nitrogen cycle and unavoidable....
That's actually not entirely accurate. The end product of the Nitrogen cycle is Nitrogen gas and Oxygen I believe.
In most tanks, however, not enough anaerobic bacteria is housed to allow the cycle to complete. That's why hobbyist's often end up with a slow acumulation of Nitrate.
Proper skimming to remove waste, avoiding over stocking and over feeding, brisk flow, good gas exchange, deep sand bed and very porous live rock all can lead to a zero Nitrate tank.

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by prime311
http:///forum/post/2649810
They're 2 different methods of doing the same thing, consuming Nitrate. Thats what i meant. No need to take it so literal, to a casual observer they are doing the same thing. I was just trying to explain it in a way so as to be easily understood.
As long as we are trying to inform people I think we have to consider that people do take things literally. That being said my point was that people need to consider the means to achieving an end. That end being a low nitrate reading when they test their water. Biological denitrification is something that most people achieve just by letting nature take its course. assimilatory on the other hand needs a physical step on our parts to achieve nitrate reduction, with out our taking the last step of harvesting we can in fact set our self’s up for detrimental consequences in our tanks

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
http:///forum/post/2650437
That's actually not entirely accurate. The end product of the Nitrogen cycle is Nitrogen gas and Oxygen I believe.
In most tanks, however, not enough anaerobic bacteria is housed to allow the cycle to complete. That's why hobbyist's often end up with a slow acumulation of Nitrate.
Proper skimming to remove waste, avoiding over stocking and over feeding, brisk flow, good gas exchange, deep sand bed and very porous live rock all can lead to a zero Nitrate tank.
Journeymen actually KellenR is correct the end product of the nitrogen cycle as we know it in our hobby is nitrates. Nitrogen gas is the end product of denitrification

 

[prime311]

While I don't disagree that we need to be specific as to the scientific processes that happen, I think quite a few people just start tuning out once you go into too much detail. They just want it explained in a simpler, more concise manner and thats how I phrased my post. I'm not saying this because I have a problem with your response, just explaining why I put it the way I did. Thats also why I used the word 'essentially', to show they were of a similar nature if not the same thing without confusing folks with the details

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by prime311
http:///forum/post/2650575
While I don't disagree that we need to be specific as to the scientific processes that happen, I think quite a few people just start tuning out once you go into too much detail. They just want it explained in a simpler, more concise manner and thats how I phrased my post. I'm not saying this because I have a problem with your response, just explaining why I put it the way I did. Thats also why I used the word 'essentially', to show they were of a similar nature if not the same thing without confusing folks with the details
And that may very well be the reason there is so much misinformation out there. Too many people are looking for a simple yes or no answer with out any detailed explanation. Doing so does not force them to think the process through on their own and come to a logical conclusion

 

[windlasher]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/2650653
And that may very well be the reason there is so much misinformation out there. Too many people are looking for a simple yes or no answer with out any detailed explanation. Doing so does not force them to think the process through on their own and come to a logical conclusion
1: I don't wish to appear ungrateful, but I don't appreciate some of you acting like I didn't do my job and I wish everyone would stop jumping in to tell me that a refugium is the way to go without actually reading what happened. The Tank crashed for 2 reasons. The WET/DRY was too small and the Pump FAILED while we were out of town.
I KNOW a refugium is the way to go. Everyone assumes that I did not know, do, or "think the process through" when the fact of the matter is that I believe I did everything I was supposed to do. I did not realize that I had been sold a sump that was too small until the problem became apparent and I investigated the WET/DRY with the manufacturer. I did not realize that the pump was failing, because it was returning water, just not as much as it should have.
And yes, I did my water changes, tests, WET/DRY cleaning, yada yada etc and everything was fine right up until it crashed. I have read enough threads on here to know that some times it just goes south over night and the real cause is never figured out.
2: As I am trying to rebuild and prepare for the new tank, no one has actually answered my question which essentially is that would the new, improved system benefit from any of those items I originally mentioned above.
I am building new sumps, more sand, over 75 pounds of rock rubble, and 250 pounds of LR on the way. I have all new pumps, (2 for each sump), RO/DI unit, Cheato, Brand new 55 Gal Drums to store water, big ass Skimmers, etc. All of this to build the ultimate refugium in my basement which as you all have stated is the way to go.
But I guess I will have to decide on my own, if any of those other things will be of benefit.

 

[prime311]

Originally Posted by windlasher
http:///forum/post/2650757
2: As I am trying to rebuild and prepare for the new tank, no one has actually answered my question which essentially is that would the new, improved system benefit from any of those items I originally mentioned above.

This actually was answered in a roundabout kind of way. The answer to your question was that those items you listed shouldn't be needed in your new, improved system and thus the system would not benefit from having them. Unless you are experiencing a nitrate problem in the new tank after its setup, the status quo should be fine.

 

[windlasher]

Originally Posted by prime311
http:///forum/post/2650765
This actually was answered in a roundabout kind of way. The answer to your question was that those items you listed shouldn't be needed in your new, improved system and thus the system would not benefit from having them. Unless you are experiencing a nitrate problem in the new tank after its setup, the status quo should be fine.
Thank you. That answers my question. I am happy to add or leave out whatever is required, but i do realize that more stuff = more maintenance too.