Nitrates, Nitrates, Nitrates Any Ideas

[stockee]

Looking for assistance here,
I have a 135 gallon reef tank. I do 10-15 gallon water changes weekly, my readings, Ammonia=0,Nitrites=0,Hardness=Good, Ph=Good, Calcium=good,Nitrates=between 10-20 regularly. My local fish store states that this is nothing to be concerned about, and quite frankly, I'm just looking for perfection.
In my tank, I have about 85 pounds of live rock, I have about 20 Narsisus snails, 10 hermit crabs and a couple other unidentified snails. I have 2 pepermint shrimp, 1 Hippo Tang, 1 Fox face, 1 Tomatoe Clown. I have 5 yellow tail damsels, 2 yellow damsels, 1 royal gamma, 1 Copperband Butterfly, and 1 small percula clown.
For corals, I have 1 green brain, 1 branching goniopora, a large hunk of green star polyp, 1 pagoda, 1 large toadstool, 1 small colony of xenia, some yellow polyps, a few zoos, and 1, I believe to be a tube polyp of some sort.
Once a week I use a Kaulkwasser drip, once a week adding hardness, calcium and iodine mixture based on the weekly reading.
My problem, I cant get rid of my nitrates, I will feed lightly once a week. Any ideas?
Stockee :thinking:

 

[fedukeford]

do a big water change , ~50 gallons, what kinda filters do you have?

 

[murph]

Set up as large a fuge as possible with a deep sand bed. 4 inches or so. Add some macros. I have heard reports of deep sand beds lowering nitrates as quick as just two weeks after set up.
If you can supply it with sufficient PC lighting the addition/propagation of Xenia will also help to consume nutrients/nitrates without them taking over your main tank.
IMO deep sand bed is the more efficient of all the methods. When you set up the fuge and turn the plumbing on the expanded water volume alone will dilute down your nitrate level.
After the sand bed matures from there its just water changes (religiously!) proper feeding low bio load (not many fish) and aggressive skimming.

 

[fishieness]

Originally Posted by fedukeford
do a big water change , ~50 gallons, what kinda filters do you have?
that will only get rid of the problem temportatily thought. if you have high nutrients in your tank, it will come back eventualy. its realy not something to be worried about, but if you want, get some macroalgae. corals do need nitrates (zooxanthallae feeds on nitrates) but you shouldnt count on corals to feed on nitrates, but they do need to have some. or you can try spot feeding your fish, that way, there will be less waste in the water to rot. or a larger clean up crew.

 

[fishieness]

Originally Posted by fedukeford
, what kinda filters do you have?
i didnt see this at first though. this could be the sorce of the problem. if you have a canister filter and you havent changed or cleaned it in a long time?
or perhaps if you have a lot of bio-balls. that will cause nitrates if you have a high nutrient system.

 

[pchromis]

Xenias in the fuge?

 

[murph]

Yep Xenia's in the fuge. They will need the proper lighting though.
From my experience so far the list in order of effectiveness goes.
DSB
Xenia
macro algae
With macros coming in a distant third at best.
The propagation of Xenia will most likely net you a few dollars in trade at the LFS also.

 

[pchromis]

So the xenias do the same job as macroalgae?
Should i move my recently purchased xenia from the dt the fuge?

 

[fishieness]

Originally Posted by Murph
Yep Xenia's in the fuge. They will need the proper lighting though.
From my experience so far the list in order of effectiveness goes.
DSB
Xenia
macro algae
With macros coming in a distant third at best.
The propagation of Xenia will most likely net you a few dollars in trade at the LFS also.
why would it matter if they are in the fuge or the display tank? its the same water. and i doubt a DSB will produce nitrates fast enough to make the concentration high enough in the fuge to make a difference. Heck, if you want to look at it that way, a clam has 10X more zoo than other corals. but you still cant count on them unless you have a ton to realy do much.

 

[pchromis]

I have been reading alot here about xenias. Even viewing some pics of reef tanks. I fear having the xenias take over the dt.
Also, if they are so easy to frag and propogate, why cant a LFS just do it themselves?

 

[fishieness]

because most LFS are in it for the imediate sale. the thing about xenia is, they sometimes take over a tank, they sometimes fail. you could have two established reef tanks all with perfect levels, but one will thrive in one and fail in the other. it isnt known why.

 

[murph]

Probably because its not worth the time to do it when they can most likely get it locally and mark it up 100 to 300 percent and still sell it to the uniformed.
I have seen small Xenia colonies with 60 dollar price tags. Gone back a few days later and see that it actually sold for that price. They probably got it locally for ten bucks and ten bucks store credit at that.
It doesn't matter if your Xenia is in the main tank or not but as was said they can get out of hand and in the fuge if surround by other rubble the new growth will be there which makes for easy removal.
I prefer a remote DSB due to the fact that if down the road if water quality declines and a crash of the DSB is suspect its just a matter of shutting down the plumbing and water changes in the DT to salvage the situation.
If you don't think a DSB is exporting nitrates do like I did and add a couple inches of new sand to an established bed all in one day and watch your nitrates climb for a couple of weeks until the bed reestablishes itself.

 

[stockee]

Man,
You guys are good, I cant believe all of the rsponses. I have a bioball filter system set up. I have been thinking about setting up a fuge system to go along with it. Its just been a matter of sitting down and doing it.
Question, someone stated that the bioball system with a high nutrient set up can be a cause of high nitrates, What do you mean when you stated a high nutrient setup?
Question, can I set up a fuge system along with my bioball set up, if so would It before the water gets to the bioballs or after.
I cant thank you guys enough for your responses. Thanks
Stockee

 

[fishieness]

the thing is about bio balls is, they work TOO well. they take all yoru amonia and turn it into nitrates. this is better than having amonia, but if your nitrate cycle cannot keep up, then youa re stuck with the nitrates. this could be your case. by a high nutrient system i mean, do you have a lot of fish or inverts or corals that you often feed? does a lot of food get by the fish? is your tank overstocked? did you add these fish quickly?
these thigns could cause your nitrogen cycle to not be as good as your amonia cycle because of your bioballs.
you can add a fuge after the bio balls, but the bio balls is not what causes the nitrates exactly. its all over your system. but you can add them by cutting off a section of your sump and adding sand and macroalgae.

 

[stockee]

Thank you fishieness,
i do believ that my tank is within the upper regions of having too many organisms in it. I actually went to my office today (where my tank is) and stopped by the lfs (which is handily, right next door) and asked them about setting up a fuge system. So I think I will attempt this setup. Im afraid that I do not have alot of room under my tank for an added 10 gallon fuge. But I will figure it out. I did do a 15 gallon water change and will if we can keep things in line until we set up the fuge. I also cleaned about 25% of my bio balls. I will take some readings tomorrow.
Thanks again
Stockee

 

[az]

Originally Posted by Stockee
Looking for assistance here,
I have a 135 gallon reef tank. I do 10-15 gallon water changes weekly, my readings, Ammonia=0,Nitrites=0,Hardness=Good, Ph=Good, Calcium=good,Nitrates=between 10-20 regularly. My local fish store states that this is nothing to be concerned about, and quite frankly, I'm just looking for perfection.
In my tank, I have about 85 pounds of live rock, I have about 20 Narsisus snails, 10 hermit crabs and a couple other unidentified snails. I have 2 pepermint shrimp, 1 Hippo Tang, 1 Fox face, 1 Tomatoe Clown. I have 5 yellow tail damsels, 2 yellow damsels, 1 royal gamma, 1 Copperband Butterfly, and 1 small percula clown.
For corals, I have 1 green brain, 1 branching goniopora, a large hunk of green star polyp, 1 pagoda, 1 large toadstool, 1 small colony of xenia, some yellow polyps, a few zoos, and 1, I believe to be a tube polyp of some sort.
Once a week I use a Kaulkwasser drip, once a week adding hardness, calcium and iodine mixture based on the weekly reading.
My problem, I cant get rid of my nitrates, I will feed lightly once a week. Any ideas?
Stockee :thinking:

One thing that grabs me off the top is the amount of rock you have. I feel your a little light. Ratios that have always worked for me in reef systems and things start a good balance is 1.5:1 to 2:1. So most of what I do is 1.25:1 to 1.5:1 ratio of rock to water in my tank and the rest is made up elsewhere in my system.
A lack of area for you bio-system will not give you a fast turnaround in the nitrate area because you do not have the proper balance needed to handle what you have.

 

[fishieness]

Originally Posted by AZ
One thing that grabs me off the top is the amount of rock you have. I feel your a little light. Ratios that have always worked for me in reef systems and things start a good balance is 1.5:1 to 2:1. So most of what I do is 1.25:1 to 1.5:1 ratio of rock to water in my tank and the rest is made up elsewhere in my system.
A lack of area for you bio-system will not give you a fast turnaround in the nitrate area because you do not have the proper balance needed to handle what you have.
hmmm.... i must have missed the amount of rock he had.... good catch. i guess it depends how many bio balls he has.

 

[az]

OH please stays away from bio-balls for a reef system. If most of you have this type of system and complaining about nitrates never go away or you have trouble keeping fish alive very long.
Bio balls do not have enough surface area and penetration area to hold a good bacteria balance for your tanks. Well let me back up a minute...... get a bio ball system for a 150 gallon tank and put it on a 40 gallon tank and you may have the area to do a job. But it is much cleaner and safer using other methods. And less work for you!

 

[fishieness]

Originally Posted by AZ
OH please stays away from bio-balls for a reef system. If most of you have this type of system and complaining about nitrates never go away or you have trouble keeping fish alive very long.
Bio balls do not have enough surface area and penetration area to hold a good bacteria balance for your tanks. Well let me back up a minute...... get a bio ball system for a 150 gallon tank and put it on a 40 gallon tank and you may have the area to do a job. But it is much cleaner and safer using other methods. And less work for you!
i do agree on the upsizing, but you do this in everything with the hobby. you buy a larger skimmer, a larger HOB filter (if you have one), ect. you always got to upsize IMO.