Nitrates through the roof - sand bed, CUC, or bio-balls to blame?

irish1985

irish1985

New Member
Hi all, newbie here, running a 75 gallon with overflow box that runs down into a wet/dry sump with bio-balls. Roughly 70 lbs of live rock. I have a little bit less than 1 inch of sand. Live stock includes 1 medium sized yellow tang, 1 smaller clown, 1 medium sized lawnmower blenny, 2 anemones, and a CUC which consists of 1 large banded shrimp, 1 small camelback shrimp, 5 large turbo snails, 5 small margarita (I think?) snails, and 4 small hermits.
Levels are all reading fine, except my nitrates, which are crazy-high – 160+. I think it might be dirty bio-balls. Or possibly not a deep enough sand bed? Not a sufficient CUC? I don’t think it’s overfeeding, I’ve cut back to every other day feeding in an attempt to get things under control, and since then I’ve done a couple of large water changes, but nitrates are still through the roof.
I’ve been using R/O water from my LFS (which of course tested at 0ppm for everything). The crazy thing is, I didn’t even notice a decrease in nitrates after I did a 50% water change, and I’ve always made sure to clean any debris I find on the top of the sand bed. It’s not a faulty test kit either. The live stock all seems fine, nothing looks unhealthy and they’re all eating normally, but I’m still worried the nitrates are going to cause my tank to crash. Like every question I’ve had with this hobby, I’ve gotten a lot of mixed reviews with the bio-balls. The guy at my LFS said he NEVER cleans the bio-balls in his tanks, and his setups all look amazing. I will more than likely end up cleaning them for the hell of it (not all at once obviously) but any other insight before then would be much appreciated, and please remember to take it easy on me as I am very new to the hobby.
Thanks in advance.
 
btldreef

btldreef

Moderator
BioBalls need to be cleaned. I don't run them, they're too much of a hassle. When they're not rinsed often, they will collect detritus and become a little nitrate factory, so they are probably to blame. Your LFS telling you they never rinse their Bio Balls, is either lying or has just been incredibly lucky playing with fire.
Do you have skimmer?
Do you run carbon?
What brand test kit?
How do you know that it is not faulty? You have an anemone, if your nitrates were really at 160ppm, your anemone would look like garbage and would begin to die. I'm going to assume that you probably have an API nitrate kit?
Personally, I don't think you have enough of a CUC, but more than likely, it's the Bio balls, and I would rinse them out, or just plain remove them before I did anything else.
 
irish1985

irish1985

New Member
Thanks for the quick response.
No skimmer, and not running carbon.
I have 2 test kits - the standard API one with the bottles and test tubes, and then the cheap strips ("Fresh & Salt" brand "6 tests in one strip"). Both are showing the same high nitrate reading in my tank water, and both are showing 0ppm on R/O water I tested (as well as Poland Spring bottled water and Wal-Mart distilled water) so that was when I made the assumption that both tests are both somewhat reliable...but yeah, it is strange that my anemonies both seem fine if my readings are infact at 160+.
Any recommendations on what I should do to amp up my CUC? I'm also going to clean the bio-balls. Thanks again.
 
btldreef

btldreef

Moderator
The API kits are notorious for reading extremely high once they detect any nitrate at all. Chances are that your nitrates are high, but not that high, especially since the anemones are okay. If you can get your hands on the SeaChem Nitrite/Nitrate combo test kit, I highly recommend it. I've tested it against a digital meter that a local aquarium uses and it's dead on. It's the only test kit for nitrates that I've found to read accurately. I went through hell not too long ago with high nitrate readings making me crazy. I added a refugium, etc and still kept getting high readings, but acro's and anemones where all doing well. Finally gave up and used the digital meter, and found out that my API kit was bad. What a nightmare! At least I have a really nice display refugium now, LOL
Definitely wash out the Bio Balls. Honestly, you don't need them, I'd just plain get rid of them.
Have you considered running carbon or a skimmer? Both really do help.
The camelback shrimp isn't reef safe, and have been known to eat anemones as well as corals, so keep an eye on it.
I'd recommend getting:
15 Trochus Snails
10 Astrea Snails
10 Nassarius Snails
10 Cerith Snails
15 Nerite Snails
I hate hermits, which is why I'm not recommending that at all. They light to kill snails just for the fun of it.
By the way, what are you feeding?
 
geoj

geoj

Active Member
I wonder what your ammonia and nitrite are? If they are zero readings then, I would use some Prime just to see if it will bring down the number.
 
irish1985

irish1985

New Member
good to know about the test kits! thanks a lot for the info. i'm definitely going to check into the seachem nitrite/nitrate combo test kit you mentioned...hopefully it's relatively inexpensive. this hobby has been draining my pockets haha.
when you mention getting rid of the bio-balls, do you suggest replacing with live rock? i've heard so many mixed things about bio balls versus live rock...
also, haven't put too much research/thought into running carbon, but i've considered a skimmer. i've heard mixed things, so i haven't acted on it yet, but i feel like the consensus is that it will ultimately help. what can you tell me about running carbon?
regarding feeding, i bought a frozen "multipack" from ***** that seems like a good varied mix. i believe this is the one: http://www.petsmart.com/product/include/print/standard.jsp%3Bjsessionid=R8pvNknJSb6nYtHTkh3mMnDtBwSy73QWwh6rljyVTrbCwlLXPby4!92563997?productId=11164170
i also have a pellet/flake combo that i picked up at the LFS (it was in one of those machines that's like a vending machine, you twist and it pours into a cup...the LFS guy recommended it and said it's what he feeds all his fish) and seaweed clipped to the glass, which the clown doesn't have a whole lot of interest in, but the tang obviously loves.
thanks again, i really appreciate it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/386173/nitrates-through-the-roof-sand-bed-cuc-or-bio-balls-to-blame#post_3390357
The API kits are notorious for reading extremely high once they detect any nitrate at all. Chances are that your nitrates are high, but not that high, especially since the anemones are okay. If you can get your hands on the SeaChem Nitrite/Nitrate combo test kit, I highly recommend it. I've tested it against a digital meter that a local aquarium uses and it's dead on. It's the only test kit for nitrates that I've found to read accurately. I went through hell not too long ago with high nitrate readings making me crazy. I added a refugium, etc and still kept getting high readings, but acro's and anemones where all doing well. Finally gave up and used the digital meter, and found out that my API kit was bad. What a nightmare! At least I have a really nice display refugium now, LOL
Definitely wash out the Bio Balls. Honestly, you don't need them, I'd just plain get rid of them.
Have you considered running carbon or a skimmer? Both really do help.
The camelback shrimp isn't reef safe, and have been known to eat anemones as well as corals, so keep an eye on it.
I'd recommend getting:
15 Trochus Snails
10 Astrea Snails
10 Nassarius Snails
10 Cerith Snails
15 Nerite Snails
I hate hermits, which is why I'm not recommending that at all. They light to kill snails just for the fun of it.
By the way, what are you feeding?
 
btldreef

btldreef

Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by irish1985 http:///forum/thread/386173/nitrates-through-the-roof-sand-bed-cuc-or-bio-balls-to-blame#post_3390403
good to know about the test kits! thanks a lot for the info. i'm definitely going to check into the seachem nitrite/nitrate combo test kit you mentioned...hopefully it's relatively inexpensive. this hobby has been draining my pockets haha. The SeaChem Nitrite/Nitrate combo kit should run you no more than $15 at the absolute most. I've never paid more than $10 in my LFS for it.
when you mention getting rid of the bio-balls, do you suggest replacing with live rock? i've heard so many mixed things about bio balls versus live rock... I actually prefer neither, unless you rinse regularly. I had live rock in my sump for a while and it was doing the same thing that bio balls do, collect detritus and become a nitrate factory. I had to rinse mine at least bi weekly or it was a disaster.
also, haven't put too much research/thought into running carbon, but i've considered a skimmer. i've heard mixed things, so i haven't acted on it yet, but i feel like the consensus is that it will ultimately help. what can you tell me about running carbon? Carbon can help remove nitrates and polish your water. The basic way of explaining it is that it helps remove the unwanted crap in your water and makes it look (and sometimes smell) better.
regarding feeding, i bought a frozen "multipack" from ***** that seems like a good varied mix. i believe this is the one:**We can not post links to competitor sites here** The San Francisco Bay Brand Saltwater Multi-Pack is great. I actually like their whole line, and it's a huge part of my fishes diet. Here's what comes in that pack: Emerald Entree (one of the best omnivore foods on the market - my fish LOVE it), Spirulina Brine Shrimp, Squid (my fish won't eat this) and Marine Cuisine (bascially mysis and brine). Do your fish eat the squid? (it's the whitest of any of the cubes).
i also have a pellet/flake combo that i picked up at the LFS (it was in one of those machines that's like a vending machine, you twist and it pours into a cup...the LFS guy recommended it and said it's what he feeds all his fish) and seaweed clipped to the glass, which the clown doesn't have a whole lot of interest in, but the tang obviously loves. Okay, this is the second crazy thing your LFS has told you, so from here on out, I'm going to assume that your LFS is like many out there and they suck. You're nothing more than a walking dollar sign to them, and they're taking advantage of it. That vending machine pellet/flake crap is GARBAGE and has no place in a saltwater tank. It's polluting your tank. I promise you if you stop feeding this and start cleaning the bio balls, your nitrates will go down. Stick with that Saltwater Multi-Pack and seaweed strips on a clip and your fish will be fine. Are there any other LFS's in your town, or nearby that you can go to? Your LFS is giving you some horrible advice.
thanks again, i really appreciate it!
 
mr. limpid

mr. limpid

Active Member
I've been running bio balls in my fish only tank for 8 years, nitrates are always around 20. Yes I rinse mine once a year and they sort of get rinsed when I do water changes because the wet/dry fills up when I shut down the pump. If you rinse them do not do all at once then you will get a spike in your ammonia and nitrates, rinse a third at a time, I use egg crate to separate them into thirds. Bio balls are fine if you maintain them, on my reef tank I use live rock. +1 on protein skimmer and I suggest chem-pure for carbon.
 
irish1985

irish1985

New Member
Found the SeaChem test on ebay for $15 shipped! Definitely can't wait to get my hands on that...gonna do a bit more shopping to see if I can find one closer to $10 first. Also, definitely going to amp up my CUC as soon as possible as well as do some more research on running carbon. Going to clean the bio-balls (and possibly get rid of them?) too - so much to do! I'm motivated though, it's basically an expensive science experiment, but once the dust settles, I think it will be less stressful, which is the ultimate goal (for the tank to be a nice showpiece/stress reliever in the house!).
I've never heard of not using bio-balls or live rock in a sump...so this would mean I would strictly be using the sponge that separates the middle section of the sump to catch everything? In addition to a skimmer if I added one to the sump? Here's my sump setup:

Unfortunately, the closest "LFS" (other than the one in question, which is still an hour from me) is *****, who I seem to give an education lesson to every time I go in there (and keep in mind, I've only been doing this for a few months)...they have 1, maybe 2 employees who have their own marine tanks at home, and seem to be knowledgeable, but for the most part, the other employees barely know the basics. I've heard that the ***** near me is one of the "better" ones (and it does seems miles better than some of the other ones I've been to) but yeah, still a big chain with a lot of cooks in the kitchen. The other LFS, the one in question, is further away, about an hour from me, but the guy is really nice, and his tanks all look amazing. His prices are a bit cheaper than ***** too, so I like to give him my business when I happen to be in the area (I try to avoid making a special trip there, since gas is so damn expensive). He really doesn't seem like the type who would try and take advantage...he's talked me out of buying things from his store, saying I don't need them, or I should wait, etc. I told him about the cheap R/O I found, and he told me to buy it, that he couldn't beat the price and that it seemed like a solid unit. Also, I feel I'm relatively prone to your average 'car-salesman' like douchebag who only cares about the bottom line...but maybe not :)
Regarding food, here is the stuff that I got at the LFS in question, photo below. Thankfully, I've mostly been feeding the multipack, and not this pellet/flake mix...mostly because the fish don't seem to enjoy it as much, and I don't enjoy cleaning it off the sandbed. Oh, and as far as I can tell my fish seem to love all 4 of the cubes in the multipack, but I'll pay closer attention the next time I feed the squid to see if they're not enjoying that one as much.

And finally, here's a picture of my setup. My camera is 5 years old, and kinda sucks, but you get the idea:
 
btldreef

btldreef

Moderator
I only have a skimmer, sponges and a carbon and phosban reactor in my sump. No rocks, no bio balls, they caused more harm than good. You might want to consider replacing your bio calls with a refugium, it definitely looks like you have room for one in that spot.
The flake food is what I suspected, it's really meant for freshwater.
 
irish1985

irish1985

New Member
so i received the SeaChem nitrite/nitrate test kit, and unfortunately my nitrates are still literally off the charts (60+ ppm is the max this test goes too). over the course of about 2 weeks i cleaned a third of the bio balls and did a couple of 20% water changes, and my nitrate readings were still 60+. i just did another third of the bio balls (so two thirds should be cleaned) and also replaced all of my sump water with clean salt water (about 10 gallons in all - it was pretty nasty water) - i think with the sump/bio-balls not cycling as much crap, and with a couple of pretty big water changes, i'll see some results! fingers crossed.
also, i stopped feeding the pellet/flake food, and have continued to cut back feeding in general in an effort to get things under control. if none of this works, i'm going to amp up my CUC and see if that helps...i plan on doing that anyway actually. and if that doesn't work, i'll look into running one (or more?) of these:
a) carbon and phosban reactor
b) refugium
c) protein skimmer
i'd like to start as inexpensive as possible, and work my way up to try and eliminate the nitrate problem. thoughts?
 
btldreef

btldreef

Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by irish1985 http:///forum/thread/386173/nitrates-through-the-roof-sand-bed-cuc-or-bio-balls-to-blame#post_3395442
i haven't. i just googled it though, and it looks like a DIY type project? i'm not a very good handy man, so might be a bad idea (i'm amazed i hooked up my R/O on my own lol)
Hahaha.
Yes, for the most part it is a DIY. There are a few people here and there that are making them and selling them for other people online now. It's worth taking a look into, it will definitely save you a lot of money and can often do the job of a skimmer and a refugium combined.
If you don't do a turf scrubber:
If you have the space of a refugium, I recommend one combined with a carbon reactor. If that still doesn't work, then go to a skimmer. Usually I'd recommend the skimmer as the first option, but since you're trying to save some money, the other way might be cheaper.
 
irish1985

irish1985

New Member
definitely going to hunt around for someone selling the turf scrubber - seems like it could solve a lot of my problems (and prevent future ones). thanks for the tip!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BTLDreef http:///forum/thread/386173/nitrates-through-the-roof-sand-bed-cuc-or-bio-balls-to-blame#post_3395446
Hahaha.
Yes, for the most part it is a DIY. There are a few people here and there that are making them and selling them for other people online now. It's worth taking a look into, it will definitely save you a lot of money and can often do the job of a skimmer and a refugium combined.
If you don't do a turf scrubber:
If you have the space of a refugium, I recommend one combined with a carbon reactor. If that still doesn't work, then go to a skimmer. Usually I'd recommend the skimmer as the first option, but since you're trying to save some money, the other way might be cheaper.
 
btldreef

btldreef

Moderator
There are a few people on this site that have built them, might want to pick their brains. They might be able to completely talk you through it, or maybe even make one for the right price.
 
flower

flower

Well-Known Member
Before you go crazy with the nitrate battle...get a different test kit. I got a Seachem test kit to replace my API kit. The strips are even worse and IMO should never be used in a SW tank. My API kit said my nitrates were 40+ to 80 and what it actually was is 1...The Seachem kit came with a sample to double check for accuracy, so it was a 1.
I changed my filtration system to a sump/refugium because I ran a canister filter, and everyone said they were little nitrate factories, I even did daily water changes...I tried vodka dosing and it still said my nitrates were climbing, I went nuts for two years fighting with nitrates, and all along it was the test kit reading high. I will say that 0 is 0, because while my one tank read 80, the other read 0. With Seachem that tank had indeed 0 nitrates.
 
florida joe

florida joe

Well-Known Member
If you do indeed have high nitrates it is because your system is lacking in the amount of mechanical and or biological filtration for dinitrification for the bio load introduced NOT because you have bio balls
 
irish1985

irish1985

New Member
i just bought the seachem nitrate/nitrite test and it's still off the charts on that kit (60+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flower http:///forum/thread/386173/nitrates-through-the-roof-sand-bed-cuc-or-bio-balls-to-blame#post_3395531
Before you go crazy with the nitrate battle...get a different test kit. I got a Seachem test kit to replace my API kit. The strips are even worse and IMO should never be used in a SW tank. My API kit said my nitrates were 40+ to 80 and what it actually was is 1...The Seachem kit came with a sample to double check for accuracy, so it was a 1.
I changed my filtration system to a sump/refugium because I ran a canister filter, and everyone said they were little nitrate factories, I even did daily water changes...I tried vodka dosing and it still said my nitrates were climbing, I went nuts for two years fighting with nitrates, and all along it was the test kit reading high. I will say that 0 is 0, because while my one tank read 80, the other read 0. With Seachem that tank had indeed 0 nitrates.
 
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