Nitrates

[vince-1961]

Originally Posted by gbwedu
http:///forum/post/3117672
I change all other filters at least every two to three weeks and wash them off in between.
This could, potentially, be a nitrate factory.
What filters? what filter material? How frequently do you "wash them off" and what do you mean by "wash them off"?

 

[florida joe]

Originally Posted by vince-1961
http:///forum/post/3117757
This could, potentially, be a nitrate factory.
What filters? what filter material? How frequently do you "wash them off" and what do you mean by "wash them off"?
I realize it’s late and my brain works even less at this time. but if washing and or changing his filter media so often does anything its degrade his nitrification filtration. Nitrates are in our water column by cleaning this filter media he is removing items breaking down causing ammonia. I will never understand the nitrate factory reference

 

[vince-1961]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3117797
I realize it’s late and my brain works even less at this time. but if washing and or changing his filter media so often does anything its degrade his nitrification filtration. Nitrates are in our water column by cleaning this filter media he is removing items breaking down causing ammonia. I will never understand the nitrate factory reference
Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure. That's why I said "potentially." If he is using a mechanical filtration system and his filter material is the white cotton-like fiber, then I'd be willing to bet that it is a greater source of nitrates than anything else.
Unless the cleaning is to disturb a DSB, I do not think cleaning affects denitrification at all.
Here is my reasoning: One set of aerobic bacteria (I forget the name but it's the same group that rots flesh in dead animals) breaks the ammonia down to nitrite. Then another group of aerobic bacteria break the nitrite down to nitrate. Aerobic bacteria are the ones that use oxygen. So the whole point to the "dry" part of the "wet/dry" method of biological filtration is to provide surface area in the air (more oxygen than in the water) for the aerobic bacteria. This is the function the bioballs serve.
Aerobic bacteria do not break down nitrates. Only anaerobic bacteria do that. Anaerobic bacteria live only in oxygen-free environments. In an aquarium, the only significant place that is oxygen free is the bottom if a deep sand bed. Down there, the anaerobic bacteria convert nitrate into harmless gaseous nitrogen, which then bubbles up out of the sand, to the surface and into the atmosphere.
So, bacteriological denitrification occurs only in the bottom of a deep sand bed (or other oxygen free environment).
Hence I am of the opinion that no amount of cleaning of anything other than the DSB will affect bacteriological denitrification.

 

[usirchchris]

Originally Posted by gbwedu
http:///forum/post/3117552
Sorry, as I said, I have only been at this about 3 months. I have read,bought books,asked questions, and have done everything that I have been told. I really thought this would be a helpful site. I guess I was wrong!
Stick around a bit, and you will learn to respect Joe's skeptical sarcastic nature. It's thought provoking...you'll see

. Also, he knows boatloads about the nitrification cycle, and is the resident nitrate expert IMO. Just sit back and soak it in once he warms up.

 

[spanko]

I too have a hard time with the Nitrate Factory being a bad thing. Tis all in how we control/utilize the output of the factory that is the problem. IMO we want these "factories" to exist in out systems. By having them we are breaking down the harmful ammonia/nitrites into relatively "benign" nitrates. It is our system of removal of these so that they do not become a level that is detrimental that is of concern here.
Husbandry is the issue with nitrates IMO. Whatever method chosen can and does work. Biomedia cleaned on a regular basis, macro algae harvested on a regular basis , carbon dosing, water changes, etc. will remove nitrates. Going even farther back into the process the control of introduction of proteins into the system will help to reduce the ammonia in the tank thus ultimately reducing the nitrates.
Many ways to control the nitrates in the system but to say that any filtration method that produces nitrates is undesirable is in my mind doing a disservice and perhaps a little fear mongering at that. Our goal should be to provide the methods of export of nitrates to the systems that the posters are telling us they have and to help them understand the maintenance requirements of those systems.

 

[vince-1961]

Originally Posted by spanko
http:///forum/post/3118037
I too have a hard time with the Nitrate Factory being a bad thing.
....... but to say that any filtration method that produces nitrates is undesirable is in my mind doing a disservice and perhaps a little fear mongering at that.
Now wait a minute here! We are talking about two different things, specifically production of nitrates and removal thereof. Denitrification is actually pretty straighforward per my post of #1, #2 and #3 above, so let's talk about production of nitrates.
In speaking of production of nitrates, I would like to limit the discussion to the white cotton-like fiber filter material, which most often is just polyester fiber fill for making pillows, etc.. I'd like to begin by noting that I do not know the science behind what is happening in the fiber and that I speak from experience only.
When I first started, the set up I obtained used the fiber as a mechanical filter by running the water through it in one of the over/under/over baffles in the sump. I didn't clean it that often, maybe once a week, possibly even less. I could not get my nitrates down no matter what I did. I finally got them under control when someone on this board told me that when the white stuff gets dirty, it turns into what he called a "nitrate factory", meaning that it starts producing nitrates. So, I removed the white stuff completely and my nitrate level started going down. Therefore, I concluded that when the white stuff gets dirty, it produces more nitrates than is good or normal - hence the phrase "nitrate factory", meaning a place where human error produces more nitrates than is good or normal.
I still use the white stuff as a mechanical filter, but I change it daily. If I know I am going to be away from the aquarium for more than 24 hours, I just remove it before I leave. I got my system set up where changing it takes all of 5 seconds and I do it on my way out the door every morning as a matter of habit. I use 2" thick 10" x 6" pads of the stuff and it is the first thing the water draining from the DT to the sump encounters. It sits flat on top of a drip plate. I just let the dirty ones accumulate in a bucket beside the sump until the weekend, when I take them all outside and hose them off.
The amount of brown crud that comes out of each one amazes me. Sometimes I suspect it is more effective than my protein skimmer.

 

[florida joe]

Allow me to first say, thank you for the lesson in bio-filtration. I am always grateful to expand my knowledge. I respectfully submit some of my own point of view in relation to your post.
If you reread my post you will see that my statement referring to his cleaning of filter media and it degrading of his bio filtration was only in respect to his nitrification.
So the whole point to the "dry" part of the "wet/dry" method of biological filtration is to provide surface area in the air (more oxygen than in the water) for the aerobic bacteria. This is the function the bioballs serve.

Actually the idea behind a trickle filter, wet dry is actually a misnomer as none of the media in the filter is actually dry is this. Water passing over a mechanical filter media, which is not submerged in water such as blue white filter pads, allows a slow trickle of water to pass over another media (most likely but not limited to bio-balls) this cascade effect over the media (bi0-balls) cause co2 to be given off and oxygen to be picked up.
Anaerobic bacteria live only in oxygen-free environments.
Anaerobic bacteria in fact can live in oxygen-free or severely oxygen deprived areas.

[convert nitrate into harmless gaseous nitrogen, which then bubbles up out of the sand, to the surface and into the atmosphere.
/QUOTE]Nitrogen gas is in fact anything but harmless
If not released into the atmosphere via good water and air interchange it can use up available oxygen in our water and suffocate our fish and coral.
So the whole point to the "dry" part of the "wet/dry" method of biological filtration is to provide surface area in the air (more oxygen than in the water) for the aerobic bacteria. This is the function the bioballs serve.
the function of bio- balls is to provide a media with a small footprint while being multifaceted (more surface area less space taken up)
Unless the cleaning is to disturb a DSB, I do not think cleaning affects denitrification at all.
If biological filtration is a combination of nitrification and denitrification and we diminish one by cleaning do we not impact the other?

 

[florida joe]

Allow me to first say, thank you for the lesson in bio-filtration. I am always grateful to expand my knowledge. I respectfully submit my own point of view in relation to your post.
Unless the cleaning is to disturb a DSB, I do not think cleaning affects denitrification at all.
If you reread my post you will see that my statement referring to his cleaning of filter media and it degrading of his bio filtration was only in respect to his nitrification.
So the whole point to the "dry" part of the "wet/dry" method of biological filtration is to provide surface area in the air (more oxygen than in the water) for the aerobic bacteria. This is the function the bioballs serve.
Actually the idea behind a trickle filter, wet dry is actually a misnomer as none of the media in the filter is actually dry is this. Water passing over a mechanical filter media, which is not submerged in water such as blue white filter pads, allows a slow trickle of water to pass over another media (most likely but not limited to bio-balls) this cascade effect over the media (bio-balls) cause co2 to be given off and oxygen to be picked up
Anaerobic bacteria live only in oxygen-free environments
Anaerobic bacteria in fact can live in oxygen-free or severely oxygen deprived areas.
So, bacteriological denitrification occurs only in the bottom of a deep sand bed (or other oxygen free environment).
The truth is nitrification and denitrification occur in aerobic layers the term used is coupled. Anaerobic bacteria are surrounded by aerobic pore water in close proximity.
the "dry" part of the "wet/dry" method of biological filtration is to provide surface area in the air (more oxygen than in the water) for the aerobic bacteria. This is the function the bioballs serve.
the function of bio- balls is to provide a media with a small footprint while being multifaceted (more surface area less space taken up)
Unless the cleaning is to disturb a DSB, I do not think cleaning affects denitrification at all.
If biological filtration is a combination of nitrification and denitrification and we diminish one by cleaning do we not impact the other?
If he is using a mechanical filtration system and his filter material is the white cotton-like fiber, then I'd be willing to bet that it is a greater source of nitrates than anything else.
The filter media is not the source of nitrates it is rather an area where organic material is trapped. This trapped material is the source
the anaerobic bacteria convert nitrate into harmless gaseous nitrogen, which then bubbles up out of the sand, to the surface and into the atmosphere
Nitrogen gas is in fact anything but harmless
If not released into the atmosphere via good water and air interchange it can use up available oxygen in our water and suffocate our fish and coral.

 

[spanko]

Originally Posted by vince-1961
http:///forum/post/3118113
.............When I first started, the set up I obtained used the fiber as a mechanical filter by running the water through it in one of the over/under/over baffles in the sump. I didn't clean it that often, maybe once a week, possibly even less. I could not get my nitrates down no matter what I did. I finally got them under control when someone on this board told me that when the white stuff gets dirty, it turns into what he called a "nitrate factory", meaning that it starts producing nitrates. So, I removed the white stuff completely and my nitrate level started going down. Therefore, I concluded that when the white stuff gets dirty, it produces more nitrates than is good or normal - hence the phrase "nitrate factory", meaning a place where human error produces more nitrates than is good or normal...........

Originally Posted by spanko
Husbandry is the issue with nitrates IMO. Whatever method chosen can and does work. Biomedia cleaned on a regular basis, macro algae harvested on a regular basis , carbon dosing, water changes, etc. will remove nitrates.

Apples and apples me thinks...

 

[vince-1961]

Originally Posted by florida joe
http:///forum/post/3118169
The filter media is not the source of nitrates it is rather an area where organic material is trapped. This trapped material is the source [of the excess nitrates].

Ah Ha! Can't believe that never occurred to me. Now that you've enlightened me with a fact that was so obvious it was slapping me upside the head and giving me a headache, let me make my post a heckuva a lot more on point:
If he's not cleaning the filter media often enough, then he's needlessly adding nitrates to his system by breaking down nutrients that could have been physically removed from the system before they got broken down into nitrates. The organic matter trapped in the dirty filters becomes a "nitrate factory."
Like Spanko commented, it sounds like we are both saying the same thing, just phrasing it differently.

 

[gbwedu]

Originally Posted by vince-1961
http:///forum/post/3117831
Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure. That's why I said "potentially." If he is using a mechanical filtration system and his filter material is the white cotton-like fiber, then I'd be willing to bet that it is a greater source of nitrates than anything else.
Unless the cleaning is to disturb a DSB, I do not think cleaning affects denitrification at all.
Here is my reasoning: One set of aerobic bacteria (I forget the name but it's the same group that rots flesh in dead animals) breaks the ammonia down to nitrite. Then another group of aerobic bacteria break the nitrite down to nitrate. Aerobic bacteria are the ones that use oxygen. So the whole point to the "dry" part of the "wet/dry" method of biological filtration is to provide surface area in the air (more oxygen than in the water) for the aerobic bacteria. This is the function the bioballs serve.
Aerobic bacteria do not break down nitrates. Only anaerobic bacteria do that. Anaerobic bacteria live only in oxygen-free environments. In an aquarium, the only significant place that is oxygen free is the bottom if a deep sand bed. Down there, the anaerobic bacteria convert nitrate into harmless gaseous nitrogen, which then bubbles up out of the sand, to the surface and into the atmosphere.
So, bacteriological denitrification occurs only in the bottom of a deep sand bed (or other oxygen free environment).
Hence I am of the opinion that no amount of cleaning of anything other than the DSB will affect bacteriological denitrification.
I have the cotton like filter, blue on one side,white on the other side. It sets on a drip pan just above the bio balls.

 

[gbwedu]

Originally Posted by vince-1961
http:///forum/post/3118113
Now wait a minute here! We are talking about two different things, specifically production of nitrates and removal thereof. Denitrification is actually pretty straighforward per my post of #1, #2 and #3 above, so let's talk about production of nitrates.
In speaking of production of nitrates, I would like to limit the discussion to the white cotton-like fiber filter material, which most often is just polyester fiber fill for making pillows, etc.. I'd like to begin by noting that I do not know the science behind what is happening in the fiber and that I speak from experience only.
When I first started, the set up I obtained used the fiber as a mechanical filter by running the water through it in one of the over/under/over baffles in the sump. I didn't clean it that often, maybe once a week, possibly even less. I could not get my nitrates down no matter what I did. I finally got them under control when someone on this board told me that when the white stuff gets dirty, it turns into what he called a "nitrate factory", meaning that it starts producing nitrates. So, I removed the white stuff completely and my nitrate level started going down. Therefore, I concluded that when the white stuff gets dirty, it produces more nitrates than is good or normal - hence the phrase "nitrate factory", meaning a place where human error produces more nitrates than is good or normal.
I still use the white stuff as a mechanical filter, but I change it daily. If I know I am going to be away from the aquarium for more than 24 hours, I just remove it before I leave. I got my system set up where changing it takes all of 5 seconds and I do it on my way out the door every morning as a matter of habit. I use 2" thick 10" x 6" pads of the stuff and it is the first thing the water draining from the DT to the sump encounters. It sits flat on top of a drip plate. I just let the dirty ones accumulate in a bucket beside the sump until the weekend, when I take them all outside and hose them off.
The amount of brown crud that comes out of each one amazes me. Sometimes I suspect it is more effective than my protein skimmer.
When you say you hose them off, is it just with tap water? I have been told to just use saltwater. Is that wrong? Just a beginner and really trying to get it all right. And that I should be doing this everyday? Thanks everyone for all the help.

 

[vince-1961]

Wrong or right is irrelevant to my system. I "hose them off" by holding them up against the side of my pick'em up truck and blast them with the hose, which is, of course, powered by the faucet on the side of my house, using municipal water works water, with chlorine and what not; but then I let them dry out b4 I use them in the sump as filter media.

 

[gbwedu]

Originally Posted by vince-1961
http:///forum/post/3118540
Wrong or right is irrelevant to my system. I "hose them off" by holding them up against the side of my pick'em up truck and blast them with the hose, which is, of course, powered by the faucet on the side of my house, using municipal water works water, with chlorine and what not; but then I let them dry out b4 I use them in the sump as filter media.
thanks! I will give it a shot.

 

[vince-1961]

you and I both might learn something from Florida_Joe. Read the other thread here about nitrates.
https://forums.saltwaterfish.com/t/364078/help-nitrate-problems/60