nutritional value - supplements VS water changes

[jacksonpt]

It seems like one of the big reasons people do water changes is to replenish trace elements that are lost over time. The salt mixes we use often are enriched or fortified with nutrients. Over the last 6 weeks or so, I've been doing regular water changes on both my tanks (regular meaning every 2 weeks). Between the 2 tanks I'm changing out about 30 gallons of water. This costs me about $12 in salt each water change.
So, I've started thinking about doing water changes less frequently, but dosing trace elements/vitamin/mineral supplements more often. My water params are stable in both tanks and do not require water changes to keep them stable. A $4 bottle of Kent Essential Elements supplement will last me about 6 months (dosing twice a week). A $4 bottle of Kent CoralVite will ast me about 6 months (dosing twice a week). A $12 box of salt lasts me 2 weeks (1 water change for each tank). So, if I go the supplements route, I will be spending $8 over 6 months, or about $0.33 each week. If I keep doing water changes, I'm spending about $6 each week.
Does this sound like a good idea? Opinions? I would still do occasional water changes to "freshen" up the water, say every 8 weeks or so, but supplements will the the primary sourse of nutrition for my critters. I know this is an expensive hobby and I don't want to cut corners, but if I can save a few pennies here or there, I'm going to.

 

[alti]

why are you doing the water changes so often. if you have a nitrate problem i understand, but if its to replace trace elements i think you are changing the water way too often. i strongly doubt that your corals are consuming all the trace elements in your salt mix in that short a period of time. IMO i woulod just do the water changes less frequently and find a place that sells salt a bit cheaper. i buy my salt online. it cost me 41 bucks for a 200 gal bucket of io delivered to my home.

 

[bodie]

i think if you wer to do a waterchange once every 4weeks at 10 percent a time,this would be enough for the reef,but it also depends on how much fish you have that may cause nutrient levels to raise.ive found that if my nitrite and phophate levels are low,nothing else really matters.

 

[ryanhayes9]

this threads only 3 years old... he'll see it lol

 

[laddy]

I truely believe that over time, even the best reef keepers can underdose/overdose and a good way to bring your tank back to an equilibrium point is to change 10-15% of the water in the entire system. I believe it to be just good practice.

 

[beth]

One of the main reasons for doing water changes is to dilute out the obvious pollutants produced by decayed food and waste elimination of animals.
Generally, 1 gal a day changed out is easy to do, will cause the least amt of stress to your animals and aquaria, and you don't have to waste weekend time on the "necessary evils" of this hobby.

Obviously, if you have a very small tank, you want to change out a smaller amt [daily].

 

[efishnsea]

Originally Posted by Beth
One of the main reasons for doing water changes is to dilute out the obvious pollutants produced by decayed food and waste elimination of animals.
Generally, 1 gal a day changed out is easy to do, will cause the least amt of stress to your animals and aquaria, and you don't have to waste weekend time on the "necessary evils" of this hobby.

Obviously, if you have a very small tank, you want to change out a smaller amt [daily].
OMG, 18,000 posts thats amazing, do you have the most????I have not done a water change in 1.5 years, just been adding supplements, fish and corals are fine.....lots of little critters on the reef to munch on...

 

[ninjamini]

Originally Posted by Beth
...Generally, 1 gal a day...
Beth, On what size tank?

 

[alti]

LOL! How did this thread come back to life? Its like unearthing a dinosaur skeleton

 

[rcbruce]

probably because water changes, or the desire not to do them, is one of the biggest discussions going.
I have a 55 and do a 10% change once a month. I know ppl will disagree and say, "I haven't done a change in years and my tank is fine!"
My thoughts,
1)waste has to go 'somewhere'?
2)is the tank "doing fine" or is it "thriving"??
3)I wouldn't want to live in the same recycled elements for years.
4)salt is cheaper than new fish and corals!
Just my way.

 

[alti]

Its been a few years since my initial reply so let me resond a bit better.
There is absolutely no substitute for regular water changes IME. I make my living as a coral farmer and if my corals are not healthy and growing there wont be a roof over my families heads. I personally try to change at least 10%-20% of my water weekly. this may be a bit steep for most hobbiests, but when u have a fully stocked system with many coral species growing in close proximity your water will quickly become a toxic stew of allelopathic toxins and organic compounds. The need to replace trace elements is very minor in this respect.
There are many more trace elements in seawater than there are test kits and suppliments. Unless you are a chemist with access to expensive testing equipment and all sorts of trace elements i strongly doubt you will ever be able to balance out the levels properly without doing a water change.
If saltwater came out of the tap at 1.024 and 78 degrees we would be talking about how many 100% water changes we do daily and not monthly.

 

[rcbruce]

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
bEST EXPLANATION EVER FROM THE BEST SOURCE!

:jumping:

 

[hardcrab67]

Originally Posted by RCBruce
probably because water changes, or the desire not to do them, is one of the biggest discussions going.
I have a 55 and do a 10% change once a month. I know ppl will disagree and say, "I haven't done a change in years and my tank is fine!"
My thoughts,
1)waste has to go 'somewhere'?
2)is the tank "doing fine" or is it "thriving"??
3)I wouldn't want to live in the same recycled elements for years.
4)salt is cheaper than new fish and corals!
Just my way.
Its not that I don't want to do them, just not unecessary ones. When I started reading this forum's advice on wc's, I was shocked at how frequent the "Norm" is. It goes against other materials I've read that you should only do a wc if parameters call for it but there should be months b/w changes determines an established system. You need to supplement key elements that your tank is "Digesting" and I don't see how wcs are the only effective way to supplement. I have read on here and other sources that rapid wcs "dilute" problems and this has worked for me, but in that case I suspended the use of all additves because of the salt make-up. I'd rather dose the natural way if I could. Iodine from raw table shrimp, spot feeding, has replace the majority of the liquid drops. I've lowered my Trates and stabilized for 2 weeks, so I'm skipping this week's wc. I agree that the waste has to go somewhere, but I thought the Ecosystem was suppose to do break it down and dispose of it through the cycle. It definitely help to add LR rubble to the fuge and sump and still need more in the DT. I thought if you were in balance, the wc's would be less frequent. How does somebody go a year and half w/ no wc and have beautiful fish and coral

I'm still learning so threads like these are valuble to me. Dig 'em bones up

 

[alti]

The nitrogen ccyle only converts ammonia to the less toxic Nitrate. The ecosystem in the tank will help reduce the organic levels, but will not export them. You have to always take into consideration that everything you put in your tank stays there. the only thing you lose is pure H2O as it evaporates. They rest is all either incorporated into an organism or accumulated in the tank. Nutrient export is very important. Refugiums help by export via removal of macro algae, but it will never be enough to completely rid the tank of everything introduced into the system.
There are some trace elements like calcium, alk and magnesium that may never be able to be replenished by water changes so we have to suppliment them. i lose roughly 20-30 ppm daily from my stony coral; systems. i go through about 3-4 gallons per month of homoemade 2 part calcium suppliment to make up the difference even with regular water changes.
There are many more nasties in our tanks than the ones we can test for. Ive been poisoned twice by palytoxin from zoanthid species and have a huge respect for the power of allelopathic toxins created by corals. There are also many bi products produced by corals from photosynthesis and these have to be taken into account as well.
I know people who claim success without doing water changes for long ammounts of time, but success is in the eye of the beholded. Marine life in general are very hardy animals in contrary to what most people tend to believe. Survivng the long trip from their natural homes to our synthetic seawater,high nutrient water and artificial lighting is amazing. It doesnt shock me that they can survive in a poorly maintained system, but surviving is not the same as thriving. Just because someone can keep a few softies alive without doing water changes doesnt mean that is what we should do. It may work for a select few out there because of their particular stocklist and bioload, but when u see all the posts out there about livestock dieing, algae blooms and diseases, u have to realize that one thing more than anything else is most likely the cause. That cause is lack of proper water changes or poor husbandry in most of the cases.
Take a look at the tanks of the month on some of the websites out there. Try and find one that does not do any regular water changes.

 

[efishnsea]

Originally Posted by hardcrab67
Its not that I don't want to do them, just not unecessary ones. When I started reading this forum's advice on wc's, I was shocked at how frequent the "Norm" is. It goes against other materials I've read that you should only do a wc if parameters call for it but there should be months b/w changes determines an established system. You need to supplement key elements that your tank is "Digesting" and I don't see how wcs are the only effective way to supplement. I have read on here and other sources that rapid wcs "dilute" problems and this has worked for me, but in that case I suspended the use of all additves because of the salt make-up. I'd rather dose the natural way if I could. Iodine from raw table shrimp, spot feeding, has replace the majority of the liquid drops. I've lowered my Trates and stabilized for 2 weeks, so I'm skipping this week's wc. I agree that the waste has to go somewhere, but I thought the Ecosystem was suppose to do break it down and dispose of it through the cycle. It definitely help to add LR rubble to the fuge and sump and still need more in the DT. I thought if you were in balance, the wc's would be less frequent. How does somebody go a year and half w/ no wc and have beautiful fish and coral

I'm still learning so threads like these are valuble to me. Dig 'em bones up

I guess I am being lazy, I totally agree with regular waters changes. I guess I would say my tank is just surviving, I'm sure it would look much better with some fresh sea water, (I only live 1mi from the ocean) I know there is alot of stuff in sea water that is not in my tanks water, as it has been depleted, I am sure it would not hurt to replace it.!!! I have included some pics of my tank as of today, and by the images you can see everyone looks pretty happy. :joy:

 

[rcbruce]

If you read right on the bag of salt, it states to do partial w/c every 2 weeks.

Allow me to make an over-simplistic observation;
I live in a big city with it's share of air pollution. We survive, but have our share of health problems, sinus, etc.
When we visit realatives in Mississippi that live way out in the country, the fresh air makes us feel so much better and healthier. Also, my realatives don't seem to have the health issues we do!

BTW.........efishnsea...........WOW!
is that a red kelp I see in the top pic?

 

[efishnsea]

Originally Posted by RCBruce
If you read right on the bag of salt, it states to do partial w/c every 2 weeks.

Allow me to make an over-simplistic observation;
I live in a big city with it's share of air pollution. We survive, but have our share of health problems, sinus, etc.
When we visit realatives in Mississippi that live way out in the country, the fresh air makes us feel so much better and healthier. Also, my realatives don't seem to have the health issues we do!

BTW.........efishnsea...........WOW!
is that a red kelp I see in the top pic?
BINGO, the whole world is a big toxic soup bowl , well not all of it. I almost dont want to have any kids because of what the world is going to be like when they would grow up. Toxins are in the beef, vegetables and about everything else we consume, that is not organic..I am going to make a commitment to start doing 10% water changes every month

....Its defiantly the right thing to do, Its just a pain in the a--.
I dont know what it is, It came with the live rock. I'll take a close up picture and post it to see if anyone can ID it.
Can you tell me what BTW means I'm clueless.
Thanks
efish :happyfish nsea

 

[hardcrab67]

Originally Posted by alti
If saltwater came out of the tap at 1.024 and 78 degrees we would be talking about how many 100% water changes we do daily and not monthly.
"If", I'm trying to get that done now, gotta have SW on tap, come on.
Good posts. I definately see the point of toxic stew, I was thinking the "balance" could be achieved though and still have the tank thrive. With low import should equal low export, for example a prop tank w/ no fish still high import and more wcs would be necessary. A reef w/ no fish, I would think that just coral growing doesn't give that much of a by-product.
I'm glad you've shared your knowledge w/ us. I have similar goals of advancing from this as a hobby.
Yes, Efishnsea you have a pretty tank

A minute from the ocean, I'd be in trouble, not hard to follow a hose leading to my window

 

[rcbruce]

BTW....by the way

 

[rcbruce]

Originally Posted by alti
.
There are many more nasties in our tanks than the ones we can test for. Ive been poisoned twice by palytoxin from zoanthid species and have a huge respect for the power of allelopathic toxins created by corals. There are also many bi products produced by corals from photosynthesis and these have to be taken into account as well.
.
I think he answered the question about what a coral only tank can do!
I have always just seen water changes as a part of having an aquarium. Granted, not one of the more pleasent chores, but I figure when I get to the point that 30 minutes a month becomes too much of a chore, and I don't have the money to pay someone to do it, it will be time to get rid of the tank!