Ok, political thought..only read if interested

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
I won't deny this war effort has been mis handled...We should have more troops on the ground...right now we have approximately 200,000 soldiers in other countries that don't need them. More people on the ground we could put a stop to this problem real quick...but Like Vietnam it is to political and micro managed....I don't think it is as bad as a lot of people believe based off of what I hear from certain troops on the ground. However it could be better....
Agreed. This stems, imo, in large part to the fact that other countries (especially in Europe) have come to depend on the US military as their own. Europeans have slashed their military budgets to provide social programs becasue they know the good ole USA will never let any harm come to them. Canada is another prime example. An armed militia the size of a typical HS graduating class could outgun their military.

 

[crimzy]

Originally Posted by 1journeyman
I really have nothing more to say to you on this subject. Clearly you and I live in different realities and no amount of conversation will ever make them collide.
Either I have seriously drunk the Kool Aid, or you have.
For some reason this reply cracks me up. Anyway, for the first time I agree with you 100%.

 

[tk]

Jeez! All I wanted was to ask a question about fish...
OK, here it is: Whatever the reason is for being in Iraq, no matter how right or wrong, we can't win it. It's an insurgency! An organized military force can't win against an insurgency. It's been proven a thousand times throughout history. We could fight for another ten years and accomplish nothing. The only way to "win" is to turn the place into a parking lot. After doing so, what have we "won." Iraq will simply fill back up with the same crazys that have been killing each other for the last 1,000 years.
I'll tell you how old I am; I'm a Vietnam Vet. Two combat tours and I didn't want to be there either time. No sane person did!
In Vietnam we stepped into the middle of a civil war, we had no business being there. All we did was kill a couple of hundred thousand people, including 50,000 or so of our own.
Now we are doing the same stupid thing in Iraq. This time though, we have de-stabilized a whole region. The whole middle east is now on the edge. When we pull out, and we will pull out, again, accomplishing nothing, the sh-- will really hit the fan. There will be a blood bath the likes of which we have not seen.
It will be this country's fault. I say "the country" because our population elected the powers (aka Nut Case) that put us, and the Middle East, in this no win situation.
By the way, over the years I have voted more "right wing" than "left," but I know a crazy crook when I see one!
So the fact is that we are screwed no matter what. We will pull out of Iraq, and nothing that anyone will do can change that; the whole region will be Islamic Fundamentalist, and nothing that anyone will do can change that; we will never again see $2.00 gas (or anything close), and nothing that anyone will do can change that. And Bush, Chaney or any of the rest will give it a thought...
Now, I'm going to go find out about my fish!

Tom K.
P.S. About the body armor (re: the original post in this thread): Logic has it that the preference of having it or not is on whether you are the target or doing the shooting. Trust me, it's more comfortable to be the shooter and not wear it. On the other hand, if you are the target...

 

[windmill]

You sound like you are suggesting any company that took over the rebuilding of Iraqs infrastructure shouldn't profit in some form...that is retarded....
Technically, I don't sound like anything to you, this is a computer. And you'd have to twist my text to the extreme to understand it like that. Did I type anything about a company building Iraq's infrastructure not deserving a profit? You might want to go back and read it again.
It appears you don't pay much attention to what people type before attacking their perspective. Considering what you bring to this conversation, I think I'll retire.
edit: Thanks for bringing a realistic perspective and very valid points to this discussion tk.

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by crimzy
For some reason this reply cracks me up. Anyway, for the first time I agree with you 100%.
It was meant too.

 

[darthtang aw]

Originally Posted by windmill
Technically, I don't sound like anything to you, this is a computer. And you'd have to twist my text to the extreme to understand it like that. Did I type anything about a company building Iraq's infrastructure not deserving a profit? You might want to go back and read it again.
It appears you don't pay much attention to what people type before attacking their perspective. Considering what you bring to this conversation, I think I'll retire.
edit: Thanks for bringing a realistic perspective and very valid points to this discussion tk.
Then technically you are a windmill and should not be able to take part in this thread....if you want to get technical. You came across as mad that Haliburton is making a profit from their efforts in IRAQ. That is how I took it. If you aren't mad they make a profit, then why exactly are you mad they are involved...because they were the only company with the mostTOTAL resources to aid in the rebuilding of infrastructure in an effective manner?
TK...I will honor your service, but I can see you and I will disagree on this political issue. Your point of view is a defeatist point of view. Let me check my notes and I will show you a few wars where insurgencies lost...

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by tk
...
Now we are doing the same stupid thing in Iraq. This time though, we have de-stabilized a whole region. The whole middle east is now on the edge. When we pull out, and we will pull out, again, accomplishing nothing, the sh-- will really hit the fan. There will be a blood bath the likes of which we have not seen.....
And there it is... I've been saying for months that if our military is forced to retreat the millions of civilians subsequently killed will be blamed on the folks who wanted to stay... we pulled out of Vietnam and millions in the region died. The same will happen here. And just like in Vietnam it will be the folks responsible for protesting and undermining the military position who will be to blame.
The army of 30 years ago is not the same army as today. The army of today is a Voluntary force.
We can win in Iraq. the Troops there say in many provinces we are winning.
We cannot win, however, unless the folks on the left quick telegraphing to the terrorists that we're defeated.
The region has always been unstable. You can't blame that on the US. From the Crusades until present day a lot of blood has been splilled there. Look at how many times Israel has been atacked. Several full blown wars and almost daily terrorist attacks; for years. How long were Iran and Iraq trading artillery shells (some even with wmds)? Let's not forget Kuwait. As I said, the region has always been in turmoil.

 

[darthtang aw]

Every major insurgency was defeated before WWII, every war with insurgents after WWII The insurgents/ Guerrillas have usually won out....There are some major changes that occurred after WWII....and the Geneva convention was one of them.

 

[windmill]

I just can't help myself.
Show me where it states
Look familiar? Come show us some proof!

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Darthtang AW
....There are some major changes that occurred after WWII....and the Geneva convention was one of them.
The Press is another. I'm firmly convinced the more the Press is involved the more likely the military is to fail.

 

[wattsupdoc]

I by no means am any kind of authority on this subject. Nor am I good at debate. Likewise I may be wrong in some of my statements here.....
Someone WHO KNOWS correct me here IF I'M wrong. But I do believe that the war with Iraq was started by Bush Sr. and never did it end. In other words, I dont think that Bush Jr. had to declare war on Iraq before going in. I think that when we pulled out of Iraq during Desert Strom, we did so on conditions, sanctions were put into place and as long as Saddam obeyed the sanctions, we would leave his country alone. Otherwise we reserved the right to go back in at any time. We allowed the UN to be the monitor there.
The FACT is that we did not only go into Iraq this time because we believed there were WMD but also because Saddam was making a mockery of the UN and their monitering. We gave him WAY TOOO MANY CHANCES to obey. HE CHOSE NOT TOO!. Over and over again.
It's like threatening to spank a child for getting the cookies out of the cookie jar. They keep it up because they dont take you serious, you have no credibilty, next thing you know, all the kids are doing it. Then years down the road your child ends up in the pen for burgulary and you cant figure out what went wrong.
Saddam FORCED us to go into Iraq by making a mockery of us. the UN's "efforts" were a joke and he knew it. In these days we need the rest of the world to take us serious, we dont need them to necessarily LIKE us. If we dont finish the job over there regardless of the amount of time and yes, unfortunatly, american lives, we will loose any credibilty we may have as a "SUPER POWER". The enemy will definetly know how to defeat us and we will be more vunerable at home then ever before. Like it or not, we must stay the course.
It is better to fight away from our shores then it is to fight at home.
Why is Al Queda(sp) in Iraq right now anyways, if there wasn't any Al Queda allready present there??? I hear everyone say" There were no WMD". Can they prove that? Just because we didnt find any mass storages of them? But the facilities to make them were there. The missles that were found to be longer range than he was allowed to have were there(delivery vehicle). where do they get that they dont want us over there? Because the reports I've heard completly to the contrary.
Japan BTW hated us and was virtually untouched by "western man" prior to WW2. There was NO western influence there. Japanese served their emporor who they believed to be their GOD. The ruthlessly slaughtered the Chinese and others. They would also completly abandon thousands of troops on any island were the effort to continue supporting was unpractical. Leaving them to starve, beheading any man who did not continue to fight even under these conditions.
I am neither a liberal or conservative. I'm one of those on the fence on a lot of subjects. I voted for Bush this time around because Kerry scared the crap out of me. I dont particularly like Bush, But feel he's doing the right thing in these times. EVEN THOUGH, my family is putting their AS@@S on the line.

 

[reefreak29]

i will say i can agree that we could never win in iraq , they have had there beliefs and wars with themselves for thousands of years and theres nothing we can do to change what people believe . these people will die for there beliefs. thats like china comming here to wipe out christians . it just wont work.

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by reefreak29
i will say i can agree that we could never win in iraq , they have had there beliefs and wars with themselves for thousands of years and theres nothing we can do to change what people believe . these people will die for there beliefs. thats like china comming here to wipe out christians . it just wont work.
There are still Americans who will die for their belief in freedom. Countless before us have. Countless after us will. Paul Revere didnt know that defeatest attitude. Too many Americans have forgotten what this country is about. I personally love America, and am incredibly patriotic. Any one whodoesnt love America, and are willing to die for it should leave, IMO. All of my uncles have fought in at least 1 war. My Grandfather was injured on D-Day, recieved the Purple Heart and a Silver Star. My uncle served 2 tours in Korea and one term in Veitnam. My other uncle was MIA for a while in Vietnam. He wouldnt ever talk about what happened, not even my aunt knows for sure. My nephew is in Iraq right now, second tour, recently wounded. He knew what he was getting into and is happy to serve. I tried to convince him to join the Navy, but he wanted to serve in Iraq. My neice is concidering inlisting now. Cant convince her otherwise. No I dont want to see them gone, but they understand what the war is doing for us right now and I am incredibly proud of them.
It's not going to be china wiping out christians in America, Its gonna be Al Queda doing it, if we leave Iraq. Why cant people see that?

 

[jmick]

Originally Posted by wattsupdoc
It's not going to be china wiping out christians in America, Its gonna be Al Queda doing it, if we leave Iraq. Why cant people see that?
Do tell how they are going to do this on a wide spread level in America? Thankfully, I am not a christain so I have nothing to worry about

 

[1journeyman]

Originally Posted by Jmick
Do tell how they are going to do this on a wide spread level in America? Thankfully, I am not a christain so I have nothing to worry about

Hehe, no you're a liberal. I think that puts you as #2 on their hit list.
Everyone not a muslim is on their hit list; in fact we're seeing in Iraq that even being muslim doesn't mean you are safe.

 

[reefreak29]

the only way to win is to wipe them out and we wont do that. what i cant understand is peple dont realize its all in
gods hand and whatever will be will be, i think what going to happen is the same thing that happened in korea we will be there for the next 50 years

 

[wattsupdoc]

Originally Posted by Jmick
Do tell how they are going to do this on a wide spread level in America? Thankfully, I am not a christain so I have nothing to worry about

Actually as far as your concerned it only has to be one person.....YOU!
They wont target just christians, to them we all are christians and it will be sporatic, just like it is in Iraq.
We dont need to wipe them all out, we just need to prove that we will sustain. That the American people arent spineless, which, is how it looks to them now. I repeat, if we back out without finishing the job we will loose all credibility with the world and therefore loose our status as a superpower.