Okay I have to ask this...

[salty tank]

Originally Posted by DaneDodger
If you've got nitrites and ammonia you've gotta still be cycling. It's unfortunate that you have livestock in the tank while it's cycling but what's done is done. You'll just have to carefully control how high the ammonia and nitrite levels go with frequent small water changes.
No filter is going to just get rid of ammonia or nitrites. That being said though it sounds like you're talking about one of those hang on the back filters. Many people feel those are just nitrate traps. Personally I use one and don't think it's a problem. You do have to be really strict about changing out the carbon every month and washing any detrious out of the box but if you do that it should be fine.
Dont change the carbon every month, change it every 3 or so months. That carbon pad has a LOT of beneficial bacteria that you are losing and having to rebuild everymonth

 

[suzi1780]

they are true, and 4 because that is what the guy showed up with, they were from his tank and I think his is over populated (he said he has 16 in a 55) so he wanted to get rid of some his. Oh and the 4 have been in there for going on 2 weeks.

 

[suzi1780]

water changes, I did a 10% yesturday, should i do another one? I was worried about doing one larger then 10% because I didn't want to cause a re-cycle

 

[jdragunas]

i completely disagree with the monkey and salty tank on the two above replies.
40lbs of LR is not ok if you have no other filtration in your tank... ok, lemme put it this way. 40 lbs is ok if you only want one fish. After you add more fish, your tank will not be able to handle the bio-load, because you don't have enough room for the dentrifying bacteria to grow on... the more ammonia you have, the more bacteria you need, end of story. If you only have 40lbs of LR, you cannot possibly have enough bacteria to process the ammonia from 4 fish!
As for the ammonia and nitrite "not being able to do anything about it" thing. Yes, you can do a water change, bring down the ammonia and nitrites, but that's only a temporary fix. It will only rise again in a couple of days, because as i just said, you don't have enough bacteria to process the amount of ammonia your fish are letting off in your tank. So basically, you do a water change to lower your organics, then 2 days later, your organics are at the same levels they were before... So if you want to continue to do water changes every 2 days, you'll be fine. Otherwise, you really need to return 3 of the fish and the star, buy more LR (or get your filter going), and then in about a month, add another fish.
You MUST change the carbon monthly. Once carbon has reached it's capacity, it will begin to break down, and release everything it's been collecting... carbon has about a 1 month lifespan. Also, while carbon does house some bacteria, it's not the main source of the dentrifying bacteria, so it's completely fine to change it monthly.

 

[danedodger]

Don't feel the need to get more rock.
We disagree on this part (provided that that is all she uses for filtration but if she's going to get a wet/dry I'd be more inclined to agree) but differing opinions in this hobby is nothing new

The other false or misleading piece of information in this post is the "...and there's really nothing you can do... " regarding the nitrite levels.
A 20% or more waterchange should lower them.
Well that's true enough. A water change will lower them but even if the tank has already cycled and is going through a mini cycle now you don't want to completely get rid of them as the beneficial bacteria that would normally and naturally take care of the ammonia and nitrites won't have a chance to grow. Just keep ammonia and nitrite down to reasonable levels since you have critters in there.
I also growing little tried of this guy putting moves on me, hahaha, he has met my boyfriend!
Yanno when I first read this thread I thought "this guy is looking for more and these little presents are his way in"

Fish keeping and all aside and only my personal opinion where it hasn't been asked for really but I think I'd have to refuse any more of these "gifties" in the future and maybe even return what he's given so far. Otherwise no matter how clearly you tell him you are already in a relationship and aren't looking for anyone else he may start getting resentful, feeling taken advantage of, and start yelling the good ole "she lead me on" lines. Just one old woman's advice from "been there, done that"

I would just like advice on how to deal with the LFS and my chances of them exchanging those two items and how on earth I go about bagging them up to take back if they go for the idea.
Bagging them up: You can just use the biggest ziplock bags out there, put some of your tank water in, a critter in each, and seal it up leaving a good sized pocket of air in the top. They should do fine in that in just the length of time it takes to drive to the store.
On dealing with the store just be honest. Without past experience with this store you have no way of knowing whether they'll take them back or not and what they'll be willing to give you for them though. Before you put the animals through the stress of being bagged and such you may want to call ahead. I'd just tell them flat out that you're not happy with your purchase because on researching further into these two animals you don't feel that they're going to fit into what you want to do in your tank. If that store won't take them back you can always call other stores to see if they'll give you any kind of credit or exchange or try fellow hobbyists who might be willing to give you a bit of money or a trade for them.

 

[suzi1780]

Dane, thanks for the advice. Guys are funny critters in themselves! Every chance I get I say someting about my boyfriend to this guy, for example he wanted to take me out to lunch yesturday after he showed up, I said "no I can't my boyfriend needs me to go get him some soup because he is sick" argh maybe this is why I like fish etc... they don't want anything else besides food and a nice tank!
As for the LR, I have 50lbs, really I would say it is 60 once I sit here and add it all up. This was a lesson I learned on here. He gave me like 20lbs and said that was enough but I researched on here, purchased some on here and then he came over and told me I had too much and the fish wouldn't like it. I knew he was wrong, thanks to your help and I am not taking out any rock like he suggested. I am certainly open to buying more rock and or buying more filters, just need advice because I don't like his advice. As I said I will have a wet/dry by this weekend. Other then that should I add a carbon filter? I am fish only until I have more knowledge etc and maybe a year or two from now will go to reef.

 

[mrstwig]

Thanks for the information Dane............I'll be calling the lfs shortly to see about returning that starfish as I do not want a starfish that is going to go through a slow death. I have about 12 books, purchased and borrowed, and none of them refer to the sandsifting starfish. I guess that is one reason I wasn't a little "smarter" when I saw it in the tank and fell for the line about him "keeping my sand clean". I am just so glad that there are so many experienced and helpful people on this site to help those of us that are learning find our way along and learn as we go.
thanks again!!

 

[jdragunas]

suzi, i would either add more LR, or add that wet/dry... but i wouldn't depend on the wet/dry... seems kinda fishy if you ask me... no punn intended...
A good filter is a bio-wheel... these are just like those powerfilters, but they have a bio-wheel, which is meant to house the dentrifying bacteria, so it's just like adding LR. On my seahorse tank, i have the emporer 280, but the emporer 400 would probably be perfect for your tank. It has 2 bio-wheels, 2 carbon filter pads, and 2 extra trays for additional filter media (i.e. extra carbon, a phosphate sponge, etc...) This would probably be perfect for your tank.

 

[suzi1780]

jdragunas- thanks so much for your suggestion! I will try and pick up a bio-wheel tonight. I am also learning about fuges, I am interested in sending one up.

 

[danedodger]

Guys are funny critters in themselves!
Ahhh you young whippersnappers and your guy troubles... Wait a few years or so and you'll find out like I did that being an old maid with a ton of animals is the only way to go!!!! :hilarious
Seriously though, I'd say in a 55 you'd be good to go with the liverock you have (nope, I think you're right not to take any of it out! He's insane! Fish love all the little hidey places and swimming in and out around the rock plus more rock equals more biological filtration plus having all those hidey and swimming spots helps reduce fish stress!) with a protein skimmer and a wet/dry. The question is is the wet/dry you're getting good enough? I'd seriously research it. It should at least be better than nothing but if it's not adequate to the job you might still have to look into getting something else.
I run a double bio-wheel and don't think it's any problem. Just don't replace the bio-wheels, change out the carbon monthly, and monthly at the same time wash out any detrious that gets in there.
I have about 12 books, purchased and borrowed, and none of them refer to the sandsifting starfish. I guess that is one reason I wasn't a little "smarter" when I saw it in the tank and fell for the line about him "keeping my sand clean".
Well it WILL clean the sand but yeah, after the sand is all clean it may not have anything to eat and slowly die.
The reason you can't find anything on a "sand sifting star" is just a difficulty of different animals having different descriptions and common names. Getting the scientific name is really the best way to id critters in this hobby. Dr. Shimek's book, Marine Invertebrates, lists "sand sifting stars" as needing at least a 100 gallon tank and does mention that they need a lot of food and once the edible stuff in the sand is eaten usually do starve.

 

[danedodger]

No one needs a refugium but I sure think they're worth the benefits they provide!

 

[suzi1780]

Ok and let me make sure I have everything down pat... buy the emp 400, don't change bio wheel, change carbon once a month. This won't help rite or ammonia but will help other stuff, right? thanks!

 

[danedodger]

Yep, you've got it! :cheer: The bio-wheels should start to look just plain awful but that's good!! That just means that they're growing lots of good bacteria for you and if you change them out you'll just be throwing away all that good bacteria! The carbon you change out once a month because, as jdragunas said, after that the carbon will be "full up" of "poisons" and can't take anymore in. Once a month when I do a water change and replace the carbon I also unplug the filter, take everything out of the filter, and rinse it really good (don't get fresh water on your bio-wheels though!) to make sure there's no icky detrious or anything left in it.
And no, it won't get rid of your ammonia. The best way to get rid of ammonia and nitrites is to let that good bacteria grow. The bacteria will take the ammonia and turn it into nitrites then a second bacteria will grow turning the nitrites into nitrates. Once that's done your tests should show ammonia 0, nitrites 0, and some nitrates. You do a partial water change to bring the nitrates down to 20 or less and you're done for awhile until the nitrates start to climb again. But since you have fish living in the tank you don't want your ammonia and nitrites to go TOO high or it will hurt or even kill the fish. On the other hand if you do too much or too large a water change and bring the ammonia and nitrites down to 0 with the water changes the good bacteria won't grow and you'll have to keep constantly fighting the ammonia and nitrites. I'd say do partial water changes to keep your ammonia at about 1 or so. That should be enough to keep the bacteria growing so that you can eventually ease off a bit on water changes but not really high enough to do serious harm to your fish.

 

[suzi1780]

Wow Dane that was the info I needed! Great! My ammonia and rite aren't really, really high right now, to be stupidlty honest if I had the charts sitting in front of me right now then both are the third color, whatever level that is! Two steps up from zero... grr i wish i didn't have to be at work right now!

 

[birdy]

Well there are a lot of differing opinons flying around on this post and I hate to add to any confusion but honestly this is what I think.
1. You do not "need" a hob powerfilter or more live rock or a wet/dry), if you have a sandbed and 40#LR you have plently of surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow on. Generally I prefer at least 1.5lbs of LR in a tank but you should have plenty of porus area for the bacteria to grow on, with a sandbed alone. LR performs a more important job, it breaks down nitrates, where as LS doesn't do that unless you have a DSB. I would recommend you have at least 2-3 powerheads moving water through the tank if you only other filtration is a skimmer AND you need to have a good skimmer a seaclone is not very good IMO. The Aqua C you were looking at is a MUCH better skimmer.
There is nothing wrong with addding a powerfilter but the only thing I would use it for is running carbon for a few days once a week, but contrary to what a lot of people here have said Carbon really only lasts a few days (like 72hrs) before it is exhausted, and leaving those filter pads in the HOB filters for a month could actually increase your Nitrate levels as junk just accumulates on them, I get micron bags and run carbon in the HOB that way and I don't use biowheels or the filter pads at all.
A spike in Ammonia and Nitrites after the initial cycle usually means a couple of things:
1. you added fish and the bacteria has to catch up, 20% water changes as often as needed can keep these levels at non-lethal levels. you are not going to hurt your tank at all by doing large water changes, I have changed 50% many times in tanks without causing any problems, but 20% is probably fine.
2. You are feeding too much and the waste from the food and the fish waste is more than you tank can handle. only feed a small amount every other day at the most.
Good luck,

 

[jdragunas]

the HOB bio-wheel filter WILL reduce your ammonia and nitrites. The bio-wheel houses the dentrifying bacteria, so that will reduce the organics in your system. The carbon doesn't remove organics, though.

 

[birdy]

Sorry but a biowheel is NOTHING compaired to LR and LS, she has plenty of both in her tank she does does not need the biowheel to reduce ammonia and nitrites.

 

[suzi1780]

Okay home now....
rite = .50
rate= 20
ammonia = .25
sg = 1.022

 

[birdy]

Suzi- I don't know if you posted this already but: How much, how often, and what do you feed your fish...
My suggestion would again would be increase water flow in the tank, if you were thinking of getting a better skimmer do that, and start doing water changes. I would do 20%.

 

[jdragunas]

birdy, her ammonia and nitrites are spiked because she added 4 fish when her tank was done cycling... she kicked her tank into another cycle, so it's not because she doesn't have enough water flow... it's because she doesn't have enough filtration in her tank to handle that amount of ammonia. IMO, she does need more LR if she's not going to have another filter. she only has 40lbs in a 55 gallon tank... that's less than 1lb per gallon...
as i said before, water changes are only a temporary fix for this problem. She needs to establish more bacteria, and in order to do that, she needs more room for them to grow... ie, more LR or a bio-wheel...