Okay I have to ask this...

[jdragunas]

as i said before, water changes are only a temporary fix. The fish in the tank are still going to continue to produce ammonia, which will continue to increase the ammonia levels. Water changes will bring the levels down for the time being, but in a few days, they'll be right back at where they were. You have to give time for more bacteria to grow, and in the meantime, she's going to have to do a bunch of water changes... that's a waste of water, salt, and money. IMO, it'd be better if she could just house the fish somewhere else.
I agree with you about the stress and whatnot, and if this were a tang or moorish idol or something like that, i'd agree with you 100%, but it's clowns. They're very hardy and not really prone to ich... also, the only way a fish can get ich is if it's put in a tank where ich is already present. It's a parasite, and cannot just come out of nowhere. So if the fish are put in a tank that is ich-free, it's impossible for them to come down with ich.

 

[birdy]

ummm the water changes will keep the fish alive while the bacteria grows, it will not prolong that time period, the bacteria will populate even if you change 30% of the water every day. Water changes just keeps things alive without having to move fish around which is a very difficult and stressful thing to do. We may just have to agree to disagree on this issue :thinking:
I have set up a lot of tanks, and doing water changes during the cycle or at any other time there is an ammonia spike will not prolong anything, it just keeps the ammonia at an appropriate level so you don't kill off everything in your tank.

 

[jdragunas]

yes, i bowdown... you are correct, and i am wrong

sorry to argue, it's in my blood... hehehe. my point was just that she's going to have to do a lot of water changes, and IMO, that can stress out the fish too. It can change the PH, change the SG, change a lot of things that can be stressful to fish too.

 

[darth tang]

so to avoid the possibilty of stress or ich (which in my estimation isn't a high possibilty) you will subject the fish to ammonia burn? Leaving the fish in can be just as stressful if not more, depending on how you look at it. No matter what amounts the ammonia is in, it does burn the gills. Eventually causing suffocation if left for extended periods. It will also shorten the life of the fish as their gills will be permanently damaged. To me, taking the fish out is safer in the long run and you don't have to stress yourself out as much either as the fish will be out of the toxic environment.

 

[suzi1780]

Okay so I should do a 20% how often?

 

[darth tang]

That all depends. You could just monitor your levels and when you see ammonia or nitrite present do it then. You could do it every 3 days which might be ok. or you could wait a week. If you go this route without removing the fish, I suggest testing daily and changing water the minute the ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate are present. This could be a daily occurance. However if you remove the fish, you have a bit more room to play with and won't have to do it as often.

 

[suzi1780]

I will do whatever is best for the fishes, I am not sure about the lfs. I have ***** and this other place and I will never never never take them to *****, I have seem ***** kill 20 tanks of saltwater fish from dumping freshwater in there with them. I am not sure how friendly the other pet store is, I think they are mostly about $ and nothing else.

 

[suzi1780]

Here is a question, when I do my water change, should I try and take out water closet to the sand bed (without touching the bed) or should I get water from the top part of the tank, or does it matter? Thanks!

 

[birdy]

your ammonia level is .25 some test kits just say .25 no matter what, you need to double check that before you start dismantling your tank to take fish out, .25 is pretty low for ammonia, most kits that is the first measurement. .25 is nothing to freak out about.
Test a fresh batch of saltwater for ammonia, that is a good way to know if you test kit is correct.
Seriously no need to freak out people, .25 is a very low level of ammonia, probably a couple water changes and all will be good in the world.

 

[darth tang]

Birdy, I might be inclined to agree with you as I have had test kits do that. But the Nitrites are at .50 and the Nitrates are at 20. this doesn't point to a faulty test or test reading. The tank is cycling. what are the odds all 3 tests are reading off?

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by suzi1780
Here is a question, when I do my water change, should I try and take out water closet to the sand bed (without touching the bed) or should I get water from the top part of the tank, or does it matter? Thanks!
It really doesn't matter, but I do tend to get in rock crevices as much as I can.

 

[sleasia]

yes. uv's should be used only after you have established an adequate biological filter in youur tank, otherwise it might wipe out your good bacteria before it is able to get well established in your substrate, filter media and rockwork. You do not have to use a uv however. If you do not have problems with algae over growth and other opportunistic bacterial infections and fungus then you may not need one.

 

[birdy]

Darth- nitrite levels are not lethal or dangerous to fish, just ammonia levels, so the fact that ammonia is at .25 and nitrites at .50 says to me that the levels are coming down and water changes will be more than adequate.

 

[the monkey]

Originally Posted by Birdy
Well there are a lot of differing opinons flying around on this post and I hate to add to any confusion but honestly this is what I think.
1. You do not "need" a hob powerfilter or more live rock or a wet/dry), if you have a sandbed and 40#LR you have plently of surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow on. Generally I prefer at least 1.5lbs of LR in a tank but you should have plenty of porus area for the bacteria to grow on, with a sandbed alone. LR performs a more important job, it breaks down nitrates, where as LS doesn't do that unless you have a DSB. I would recommend you have at least 2-3 powerheads moving water through the tank if you only other filtration is a skimmer AND you need to have a good skimmer a seaclone is not very good IMO. The Aqua C you were looking at is a MUCH better skimmer.
There is nothing wrong with addding a powerfilter but the only thing I would use it for is running carbon for a few days once a week, but contrary to what a lot of people here have said Carbon really only lasts a few days (like 72hrs) before it is exhausted, and leaving those filter pads in the HOB filters for a month could actually increase your Nitrate levels as junk just accumulates on them, I get micron bags and run carbon in the HOB that way and I don't use biowheels or the filter pads at all.
A spike in Ammonia and Nitrites after the initial cycle usually means a couple of things:
1. you added fish and the bacteria has to catch up, 20% water changes as often as needed can keep these levels at non-lethal levels. you are not going to hurt your tank at all by doing large water changes, I have changed 50% many times in tanks without causing any problems, but 20% is probably fine.
2. You are feeding too much and the waste from the food and the fish waste is more than you tank can handle. only feed a small amount every other day at the most.
Good luck,

Thank you Birdy... I was beginning to feel like the "get more rock" and "get a biowheel" people were actually being listened too...
Don't know how you can still put up with this place... It's tough on the frustration factor...
----
An old friend....

 

[suzi1780]

Good news this morning! rite is 0! Ammonia is 0! I have to get a different tester for rate, I discovered mine has the reading 0-20 nothing inbetween.

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by Birdy
Darth- nitrite levels are not lethal or dangerous to fish, just ammonia levels, so the fact that ammonia is at .25 and nitrites at .50 says to me that the levels are coming down and water changes will be more than adequate.
From a government site:
Removal of Nitrite
Nitrite can accumulate as production intensifies and organic loadings on the biofilter increase. Bacteria that process ammonia into nitrite (Nitrosomonas spp) operates more efficiently under high organic loadings than bacteria that process nitrite to nitrate (Nitrobacter) and levels of nitrite rise accordingly.
High levels of nitrite can be toxic to fish. Data available for silver perch, Bidyanus bidyanus indicates levels of nitrite as low as 2.8 parts per million (ppm) can reduce growth of fingerlings by 5%.
Ozone removes nitrite by:
* direct oxidation to nitrate;
* reducing organic loading, which improves biofiltration efficiency and nitrification.

 

[darth tang]

From another site.
Nitrites in the Aquarium
The second stage in the nitrogen cycle. As nitrifyingHawkfish bacteria are readily available they will build a colony as soon as the nutrient source (ammonia) is available. While ammonia is being converted predominantly by the species of nitrosomonas, nitrobacter is mainly responsible for converting nitrite into nitrate. When setting up a new tank, the nitrogenous compounds will rise to high levels. This enables the bacteria to form a colony and to start the conversion process (nitrogen cycle).
Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter are aerobic bacteria and need a constant flow of oxygen in order to survive and to perform their tasks.
Nitrite levels should be at an undetectable level at all times after the tank has fully cycled. Not as dangerous as ammonia, but still a highly toxic chemical, Nitrite causes stress for fish even as low as 0.5 ppm. Levels exceeding 10-20 ppm are lethal over a period of time. Immediate action is required if high nitrite levels persist after 7-10 days.
Nitrite interferes with the oxygen metabolism, it destroys the hemoglobin (oxygen carrying cells) of the fish, and aquatic livestock.
Detecting nitrites often means that the biological filter is not working properly, or the tank is overpopulated and the filter can not handle the load efficiently.
and another:
The 3 Components & Phases Explained
Phase 2 - Nitrite (NO²)
At about day 10 into the cycle, the nitrifying bacteria that convert ammonia into nitrite, nitrosomonas, should begin to appear and build. Just like ammonia, nitrite can be toxic and harmful to marine animals even at lower levels, and without nitrite present the cycling process cannot complete itself. Nitrite will continue to rise to a high level of about 15 ppm, the most critical stage, and at about day 25 the level should begin to fall off, although it's quite possible to run on for another 10 days. Most likely the nitrite reading will peak and fall off to less than 2 or 3 ppm by about day 30, and shortly thereafter to zero. If it does not, don't worry, it should drop sometime within the next 10 days or so.
Don't try to tell me nitrite isn't lethal, EVERY source available for research states it is. What makes you smarter than everyone else?

 

[jdragunas]

Originally Posted by The Monkey
Thank you Birdy... I was beginning to feel like the "get more rock" and "get a biowheel" people were actually being listened too...
Don't know how you can still put up with this place... It's tough on the frustration factor...
----
An old friend....
you know what? that really offends me. I was not telling anyone they have to get more rock and they have to get a biowheel. I was simply saying that those items would reduce the amount of ammonia in the aquarium. Birdy suggested water changes. Difference of opinion, as is expected on this board, is supposed to be tolerated, and both of these things would work to properly reduce ammonia and nitrites... It's people like you that make this place so umbearable!
And yes, nitrites are toxic, just the same as ammonia... if nitrites were not toxic, as you have said, then the cycle would be over when just ammonia reaches 0...

 

[darth tang]

Originally Posted by jdragunas
you know what? that really offends me. I was not telling anyone they have to get more rock and they have to get a biowheel. I was simply saying that those items would reduce the amount of ammonia in the aquarium. Birdy suggested water changes. Difference of opinion, as is expected on this board, is supposed to be tolerated, and both of these things would work to properly reduce ammonia and nitrites... It's people like you that make this place so umbearable!
And yes, nitrites are toxic, just the same as ammonia... if nitrites were not toxic, as you have said, then the cycle would be over when just ammonia reaches 0...
JD, I thought the same thing. But the comment wasn't worth a response.

 

[jdragunas]

i did... lol!!!