Okay, time to learn about *mud*

[kris walker]

I've heard lost of hype, but no explanations. So please only post to this if you have information to contribute.
Two questions:
1. How does mud work, and what do the makers of the mud say it will do exactly? Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates...
2. How is it better than a 4-in DSB?
sam

 

[mac]

I am not necessairly a believer, but the theory is that since the 'mud' is even finer than dsb, it better facilitates anaerobic bacteria. You can fill in the rest of the microbiology from there.

 

[kris walker]

The problem I see with the theory is that mud is made of clay and silt. If you zoom into what clay and silt particles look like, they are flat, sheetlike microscopic particles. When clay settles to mud, all the sheets pile on top of each other, and the weight of it gently squeezes most of the water out between the sheets.
My point is that water circulation is really, really hard if not impossible through mud. And while this will definitely help make for anerobic conditions, it will not help get the nitrate to where it needs to go to get processed. With sand, circulation slow, but still there to get the nitrate into the low oxygen environment where it is processed.
Remember, this argument is only based on theory, not observation. So if someone has observational data, like say two tanks, same bioload, one with mud refugium, one with DSB refugium, please come forward and educate me.
Thanks,
sam

 

[ky]

If you go to the Eco-system web site, they will 'partially' explain how MM works. All of the information that put out only brushes on how it works and what is in it. It isn't the mud alone that breaks down the nitrates. The macro-algae also breaks it down. A sump full of mud would not be as effective as a sump FULL of macro-algae and mud.

 

[kris walker]

Ky, what is the link? I tried <a href="http://www.ecosystem.com" target="_blank">www.ecosystem.com</a> and <a href="http://www.eco-system.com" target="_blank">www.eco-system.com</a> and didn't get lucky.
sam

 

[kelly]

Surfin Sam,
I was at their site a week or so ago. If you e-mail them, or give them a call they are more than willing to talk to you.
I asked them if there was a difference between fine sand and the mud in the refugium, and I thought that the corals opening better could be due to the high rate of water flow in the tank, here is the response that I got...
"YES THERE IS A BIG BIG DIFFERENCE. THE ECOSYSTEM WILL RUN AWSOME WITH OR WITHOUT ALGAE. THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE DON'T GET. YES IT IS A REFUGIUM BUT
THE TRACE ELEMENTS THAT GET RELEASED FROM THE MUD IS WHAT FEEDS THE TANK AND GETS THE CORALS POLYPS TO OPEN. ALSO THERE IS NO NEED TO FEED THE REEF TANK CHEMICLES TO KEEP IT GOING. JUST CALCUIM. IT IS ALL ABOUT WHAT GETS PRODUCED IN THE SUBSTRATE IN THE REFUGIUM. PLEASE GIVE ME A CALL IF YOU WISH, I WOULD BE GLAD TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE IN REGARDS TO THE MUD FILTERS. HOPE THIS HELPS BOB 949-851-6880"
You will also have to recharge the mud every 2 years. So from what I can tell, the mud has trace elements which corals need. It appears that the trace elements get "soaked" in to the mud, and are slowly released for a period up to 2 years. It may not actually be the mud, but the ability of the mud to slowly release the trace elements.
It could also be that the mud will help these trace elements continue to reproduce or maintain their potentcy for a long period of time. "Have all your supplements for the next 2 years in your mud today"
Sorry for the long post, but it is my 2 cents worth.

 

[kris walker]

Interesting idea, thanks for the info Kelly. So the same idea could be applied to arragonite sand if there was some way to chemically bond those trace elements to the arragonite, since the arragonite dissolves in the anerobic part slowly over time.
The rep mentions that it "is" are refugium. Did you take this to mean that it processes ammonia/nitrite/nitrates?
Kelly, also, what is their website address?
sam

 

[kelly]

Surfin Sam,
From what they have said, you will have to use the mud, I am not aware of any way to saturate or bond the trace elements to aragonite sand. Their web page addressing the mud is <a href="http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/natural_april2001.html" target="_blank">http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/natural_april2001.html</a> and their home page is <a href="http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/index.html</a> I would recommend the first link.

 

[nm reef]

Very interesting post and a source of outstanding info on Miricle Mud.....I've looked at the stuff and have seen numerous positive posts concerning it.....but I'm still a bit cautious about actually using it....I have DSB's of assorted sands in both my display and my refugium and to date the results have met expectations.....zero nitrates ...flourishing pod population...system stable and thriving......not sure I'd pay the expense to set the mud up or to maintain it....but everything indicates that it works as advertised....but then so does a normal DSB

 

[kris walker]

Well, I just read the first link you posted Kelly. It is interesting, but I must confess, I would like to see what would happen if someone took out the mud partitions and left everything else in. According to a sweeping statement made at the end, it would not work. But in the same message, they didn't explain what made the mud so important other than it simply released trace elements. The macro algae can get the nitrates/phosphates. The liverock picks up most ammonia/nitrite and some nitrate. The 2 sections of bioballs help with ammonia/nitrites. The whole 24-hour lighting deal keeps the pH and O2 levels more stable. The food can keep the trace elements up. The vaccuuming detritus off the glass bottom keeps the tank clean of debris....I just wonder.
When I get rich, I will definitely start a tank and get the system working as instructed, then pull the mud and see what happens.
Cheers,
sam

 

[kelly]

Sam,
In the e-mail that I got back from Bob, he stated in reply to your question and mine. "TOM FRAKES DID THE SAND ONLY AND COULD NOT GET THE RESULTS THAT HE GOT WITH THE MUD IN THE FILTER. HIS ARTICLE IS ON OUR WEBSITE I THINK, BOB" Don't you hate when someone else thinks like you do? I did not take time to look for it though.
In the event that you do get rich, send me some mud (not just any mud, but the miracle mud) I am willing to give it a try. I have a 20 gallon I'm not currently using.

 

[kris walker]

I am really impressed with the integrity of Ecosystem. Everyone who is reading these posts should check out their test between a Berlin-style using kalkwasser and an ecosystem setup. It is very comprehensive, and an excellent test.
<a href="http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/Comparison.html" target="_blank">http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/Comparison.html</a>
While an excellent test, the only downside is taht it is testing two completely separate systems, one with a macroalgae sump (ecosystem) and one without. And based on the conclusions, if I had to choose between the two, I would also go with the ecosystem. But after reading that post, I think the real winner here is the macroalgae in the sump. IMO, the macroalgae seem to be what kept the ecosystem above the Berlin in terms of performance.
sam

 

[biggdriver]

Just got off the phone with my local mm mud dealer in Green Bay Wisconsin..He swears by them and says he has been doing something like this for almost 20yrs..But a company finally has gone commercial with the idea..He has their largest system running 2 125's and has excellent luck with the corals and clams. The complete setup for a 65 is 350.00 and for the 90 about 480.00..Mud should be added about every 2yrs and is about 80 bucks for 10 lbs..enough for the 65 system..The other is rated for 75 to 100 gallons....I think I might send my skimmer and pumps back and give this a try..I just ordered A berlin xl and equip for a 65 and a 90..Anyone else have one of these..BY the way if u want to talk to this person at Aquatic Imports his name is Jeff at
920-432-3842

 

[biggdriver]

The kit comes with an acrylic sump everthing for in it excluding an external pump and an overflow box is also needed if the tank is not drilled

 

[kris walker]

Or maybe just buy a sump for some caulerpa?
Nudge.
sam

 

[biggdriver]

check out this link <a href="http://www.mr4000.com/" target="_blank">http://www.mr4000.com/</a> A 4000 gallon reef using only the miracle mud system..Let me know what you think

 

[kris walker]

I think that 4000 gal tank and setup is awesome, and hope someday to have one that big! I'll have to get my SCUBA license renewed though!!
As for the mud though, I don't think the mud does anything significant. Did you read that comparison webpage I posted above. IMO, that webpage really speaks for itself. I think most will agree that it was the algae due to phosphates from food that screwed up the Berlin-style tank. The phosphates were removed too quicky by the caulerpa in the ecosystem before they could result in the same algae problems. Other levels were the same. Color of water was the same--no yellowing.
sam

 

[ironreef]

The caulerpa filters the water the mud doesn't. it may help denitrofy but any fine grain sand will do the same. The mud releases trace but all good foods have 100-10,000x as much trace as NSW. IME its a waste of $$ But if you like it go for it. Theres always a market for a better mouse trap. The mud is new but I've had reefs and sw for many years with out the mud. I've had skimmerless tanks,alga tanks protien skimmer tank ect for many years. there many ways to do it but I've seen many products come out this is another IMO thats marketing hype. It may works but there alga scrubbers ,alga tanks ect.. The alga is the filter. A cheap alga tanks will work, the same. The ecosystem has a write up on the comparison but they sell the product So there bias. I've seen many crappy ecosystems= problem hair alga ect.I've als seen nice ones but they differ from no other metiod imo.= poor husbantry will cause hair. I've seen kick a** bare bottom skimmerless tanks= good husbantry bottom line. otherwise everyone would have good tanks if it was truly amiricle. JME